Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Fălenganor 07-07-05, 03:39 PM	I haven't seen optimized grafting-devoted builds here yet, so I thought of giving it a try: 1-Wizard Scribe Scroll Great Fortitude 2-Wizard 3-Wizard Toughness 4-Wizard 5-Wizard 6-Blood Magus Free Feat 7-Blood Magus 8-Blood Magus 9-Blood Magus Create Graft 10-Fleshwarper 11-Fleshwarper 12-Fleshwarper Leadership 13-Fleshwarper 14-Fleshwarper 15-Fleshwarper Undead leadership 85.000 xp + 1500(form crafting reserve) spent on grafts Cohorts: 1-Artificer 2-Artificer 3-Artificer 4-Artificer 5-Artificer 6-Artificer 7-Artificer 8-Artificer 9-Wizard Create Graft 10-Fleshwarper 11-Fleshwarper 12-Fleshwarper Ilhitid graft Free Feat 13- 14- 15- Free Feat 87.000 + 250 + 900 +87.000 + 250 + 900 200 xp per rending claw( Ilhitid graft from Fiend Folio) 873,25 grafts with 1 cohort 1314 grafts with 2 cohorts This assumes 2 things: -Money isn't a problem -There isn't a limit on grafts on characters(I asked this in the Equip. forum, but no one was able to help me out) -I'm not counting the XP you'd get by being at lower levels P.S.: It's ''more'' optimal if you take 2 of the builds as cohorts with a ''full'' character.
Caelic 07-07-05, 04:04 PM	Is the extra feat at first level integral? If not, why not consider making him a Changeling? That could make it a bit easier for him to function in normal society when he didn't want all the stitches showing. :)
Fălenganor 07-07-05, 04:13 PM	No, it's not integral. Changeling looks nice, hiding 1300+ arms seems easier now.
Dark_and_Stormy 07-07-05, 10:04 PM	Hey Fălenganor, nice to see you more active on the boards again... I've been looking (Very) closely at the FleshWarper and Grafts in General for the last few days. My personal thoughts, in no particular order: Graft Flash Feat requires Level 7 Skills (HEAL 10) and a spare feat slot. As you usually don't get another feat till level 9 (and hence level 10 entry, like your build), there has to be a better way in. Thoughts: HumanParagon1/Wizard1-4/HumanParagon2/Wizard5. (Or Wiz5/HP2, for short) This allows you to use the Level 5 Wizard Feat for a free Item Creation Feat (Graft), and the Paragon Levels can make buying HEAL skill cheap, too. Follow up after FleshWarper with Paragon Level 3, if you're not too INHUMAN by that time ;) Alternate: (Haven't thought this through, yet) Hexblade 4/Paragon3/Ur-Priest2/FleshWarper10 I don't see why FleshWarper levels can't apply to the Ur-priest... I also noticed that the grafts in Lords of Madness are a LOT more expensive than corresponding grafts in the Fiend Folio - use the FF for the best Bang for your Buck. Other Random thoughts: -If you're a Centaur, or similiar, you could benefit from 4 Leg Grafts, instead of 2... -If you're an Ettin, you could get several replacement eyes... -If you're a butterfly, you could take advantage of two sets of wings.... (okay, this is maybe pushing it)
Fălenganor 07-08-05, 11:27 AM	Nice to see you too Dark_and_Stormy :) Very nice graft builds, liked them a lot. I also thought of another build while I was looking at other threads, basicaly, a level 19 fleshgrafting with runesmith free simulacrum casting that uses sacrifice from BoVD. This build might sacrifice the simulacrum(doubt that's possible), or use them to find future sacrifices, and then use the sacrifices to get dark gold/xp for crafting. If someone has a sugestion for a better spell, please post it.
Bonzai 07-08-05, 12:10 PM	I have also been looking at the Fleshwarper class for a while. The main thing I wanted to avoid was getting into xp penalties as per the multiclass rules. Here are the two best builds I came up with. 1. Warlock 12/Invisible Blade 1/Dagger Spell Mage 1/ Fleshwarper 6. Ok, here is the reasoning. Theme wise I was thinking of a Warlock who was twisted by the fiendish influences of his heritage, and was trying to become more and more of a fiend through grafts. Why Warlock 12? So you get the imbue item ability to make your grafts. The familiar is obtained through the summon familiar feat. Now, I needed a none divine PrC with heal as a class skill. So, I looked, and it was either Blood Mage or Dagger Spell mage. I didn't like the Bloodmage over much, and didn't want to die to qualify. So I went with Dagger Spell Mage. Unfortunatly, I needed sneak attack to qualify. So in order to avoid xp penalties, I went with invisible blade. The good news is that point blank shot and far shot aren't waisted feats for a warlock, and I needed the Dagger weapon Focus for the Dagger Spell Mage anyways. It's an interesting build with a few synergies going for it. 2. Wizard(Necromancer) 6/Pale Master 10/Fleshwarper 4. Theme wise, I am thinking creepy flesh cult leader. Feats would include Stiched Flesh Familiar, Leadership, graft Flesh, Craft wonderous item, Graft flesh*required, Skill focus (religion) *required, and Mother Cyst. The remaining two would probably be Empower and spell penatration. The idea here is that you are a cult leader, and your feats are designed to use your minions to your upmost. All followers will have a cyst put in them, allowing you to better control them and use them as spies. Your best followers (cohort), should be upgraded/rewarded with grafts. Also, since you are a Necromancer, grafts can be used to make some suped up minions. For example, lets say you want a bodyguard. Find a bad ass Barbarian, Graft onto him some choice grafts, like +4 to natural armor, +4 to strength arms, etc... then turn him into a ghoul with the ghoul gauntlet spell, spell stich him using the craft wonderous item feat, and give him a life drinker axe. You now have a nasty bodyguard, that is totally subservient to your will. Your familiar will also be nastier than normal. Anyways, those were the two best I came up will. I am also working on a third build, but focusing more on being a divine caster. I don't mind not going full Fleshwarper progression, as I believe only 4 types of grafts are worthwhile; undead, fiendish, beholder, and Sithilar. (edit: Hmmm... I just had a thought. Illithid grafts may actually have a synergy with the Mother Cyst feats for the purpose of mind controlling your thralls...I need to look into that).
AlienFromBeyond 07-08-05, 01:37 PM	I also noticed that the grafts in Lords of Madness are a LOT more expensive than corresponding grafts in the Fiend Folio - use the FF for the best Bang for your Buck. There's almost no overlapping grafts, if any, between the two books. Plus, Silthilar grafts are just plain awesome!
Dark_and_Stormy 07-11-05, 09:18 AM	Hey Alien, Example 1: Observe the "Crown of Eyes" (FF, pg 208) vs "Rudimentary Eyespots" (LoM, pg 216). One gives you darkvision to 60', another +4 bonus to a skill (2 in all), and doesn't require Regenerate as a pre-req. All for the same price. Granted, the Silthilar bonus to the skill is unnamed, as opposed to the Crown's racial bonus, and therefore mildly more usable for stacking, but really, how many racial bonuses are you likely to have to a single skill? Answer: FF wins. Example 2: LoM has "Extended Legs" (also pg 216) which grants +5 movement. Hooray. FF has "Fast Leg (Fiendish, pg 210) which grants +10 movement when not at heavy, and a +5 bonus to 2 skills. The only Downside? a -6 penalty on all Charisma-based checks. So although more situational, I think the FF wins again... also factor in a cost difference of just under 90,000gp. Yes, the cheaper one wins by a fair bit, methinks. Example 3: "Strong Leg" (FF, 8000gp) vs "Silthilar Bones" (LoM, 110,000gp). 'Nuff said.
Apathy Man 07-11-05, 10:22 AM	I've also been looking at this for some time. This build I believe optimizes the familiar aspect of the fleshwarper. 1-Variant Conjurer (Augmented summoning instead of scribe scroll), Great Fortitude 2-Conjurer 3-Conjurer - Toughness 4-Conjurer 5-Conjurer 6-Blood Magus - Mounted Combat 7-Aleinist 1 8-Aleinist 2 9-Aleinist 3- Create Graft 10-Aleinist 4 11-Aleinist 5 (Familiar is psuedonatural) 12-Fleshwarper 1- Draconic Familiar (Wyrmling Red dragon) 13-Fleshwarper 2 14-Fleshwarper 3 15-Fleshwarper 4 - The feat that lets you craft for 75% normal cost (PGTF) 16-Fleshwarper 5 17-Fleshwarper 6 18-Fleshwarper 7 19-Fleshwarper 8 20-Fleshwarper 9 21-Fleshwarper 10 With this build you would end up with a large psuedonatural Wyrmling red dragon as your familiar and mount. All spells would be shared and you can even cast tensers transformation on the dragon and not on yourself. Add in some good grafts and your good to go.
AlienFromBeyond 07-11-05, 03:22 PM	Hey Alien, Example 2: LoM has "Extended Legs" (also pg 216) which grants +5 movement. Hooray. FF has "Fast Leg (Fiendish, pg 210) which grants +10 movement when not at heavy, and a +5 bonus to 2 skills. The only Downside? a -6 penalty on all Charisma-based checks. So although more situational, I think the FF wins again... also factor in a cost difference of just under 90,000gp. Yes, the cheaper one wins by a fair bit, methinks. Example 3: "Strong Leg" (FF, 8000gp) vs "Silthilar Bones" (LoM, 110,000gp). 'Nuff said. Example 2: You do know that Fiendish grafts also make the user/wearer/whatever make checks every single day or become evil? And that if they're good they must make a check every day or go insane (or is it Wisdom damage?). Example 3: Strong Leg is an Inherent bonus, thus not stacking with the +5 books everyone is a fan of. Plus, I believe it's a Fiendish one as well, subject to the drawbacks in Example 2. Eventually, you will roll a 1, and then where will you be?
Dark_and_Stormy 07-11-05, 07:39 PM	Hey Alien, Re: Example 2 (and all Fiendish Grafts): A good point. Given I'm currently playing entirely evil characters, I didn't think to mention it. Sorry! Re: Example 3: A good point on stacking, but that really only comes useful @ very high levels (with cash to spare). In my humble experiences, most players, even at Level 20, with 760k gp, don't spend 130-something odd on a +5 book for anything other than their primary stat (For Casting Types, especially), let alone a second helping from their (now depleted) funds for a +5 Con bonus. At best, I normally buy a +1 book of CON if it'll push me to the next even number (and therefore another 20 HP and +1 Fortitude) With that said, I WOULD spend 8k on a +2 CON bonus. Who wouldn't? -D&S
AlienFromBeyond 07-11-05, 08:41 PM	I wouldn't. Every single one of my characters would go crazy from it being a Fiendish Graft. Beholder, Undead, Yuan-ti, Maug, and Silthilar all don't have drawbacks to having them. Those are the only ones I look at, and occasionaly Illithid ones as well, because it's easier to counteract their drawback.
ronyon 07-14-05, 02:40 PM	Are there any official "rules" for creating new grafts? I would love to have a boneclaws, well, claws, or the tounge of a creature that can Comand Undead at will. Grafts and spell stiching seem to be the only ways to gain certain abilities with out using a item a feat or a level. Cash and XP are easier to come by. One of the builds discused used aquire familier, but I think the BoVD offers the Vermin Lord, with a verminous familier at first level. One of the few examples of a not Arcane specific familier. Are grafts specifically limited to replacment of limbs etc? A third Eye or a row of arms would be handy, and a land walking undead Whale might make a great troop carrier.
Fălenganor 07-14-05, 03:25 PM	a row of arms That's the intention of my 1st build, getting 1300+ rending claws on 1 creature(the fleshgrafter).
Bonzai 07-15-05, 10:48 AM	We have ruled in our games that grafts that specify a particular body part, don't stack. For example, you could have a bodak eye, and a mummy eye, but it you wanted to add a different eye graft, one of the old ones would have to be removed. However, adding a 3rd eye like the beholder one, or eye stalks would be allowed, as they are added to the recipient, and not replacing an existing limb. Same thing with all the natural armor, they don't stack anyways, and the newest armor graft would replace the old. So unless it specificly says it attaches something new to the recipient, we rule that it replaces an existing part.
Sentient 08-06-05, 05:24 PM	I've also been looking at this for some time. This build I believe optimizes the familiar aspect of the fleshwarper. 1-Variant Conjurer (Augmented summoning instead of scribe scroll), Great Fortitude 2-Conjurer 3-Conjurer - Toughness 4-Conjurer 5-Conjurer 6-Blood Magus - Mounted Combat 7-Aleinist 1 8-Aleinist 2 9-Aleinist 3- Create Graft 10-Aleinist 4 11-Aleinist 5 (Familiar is psuedonatural) 12-Fleshwarper 1- Draconic Familiar (Wyrmling Red dragon) 13-Fleshwarper 2 14-Fleshwarper 3 15-Fleshwarper 4 - The feat that lets you craft for 75% normal cost (PGTF) 16-Fleshwarper 5 17-Fleshwarper 6 18-Fleshwarper 7 19-Fleshwarper 8 20-Fleshwarper 9 21-Fleshwarper 10 With this build you would end up with a large psuedonatural Wyrmling red dragon as your familiar and mount. All spells would be shared and you can even cast tensers transformation on the dragon and not on yourself. Add in some good grafts and your good to go. Looks good, but I keep cackling at all these builds that dip Blood Magus. One of the requirements is that YOU DIE and come back to life. Hell of a career goal.
Grand Master Fox 08-07-05, 04:53 AM	1. Warlock 12/Invisible Blade 1/Dagger Spell Mage 1/ Fleshwarper 6. Ok, here is the reasoning. Theme wise I was thinking of a Warlock who was twisted by the fiendish influences of his heritage, and was trying to become more and more of a fiend through grafts. Why Warlock 12? So you get the imbue item ability to make your grafts. The familiar is obtained through the summon familiar feat. Now, I needed a none divine PrC with heal as a class skill. So, I looked, and it was either Blood Mage or Dagger Spell mage. I didn't like the Bloodmage over much, and didn't want to die to qualify. So I went with Dagger Spell Mage. But still, isn't Blood Mage MUCH MUCH better?!? You don't lose caster levels at all, easier to get into plus you get the scroll\potion like feats which work well with both the imbue ability and the grafter since you focus on item creation.
Wizard Random 08-07-05, 05:43 AM	2 things First of couldnt you use crown of eyes to qualify for more eye grafts? Because u got like 10 more ;) Also what happens when you have say a guantlet guardian from CW, and take fleshwarper levels? It says your familiers type changes to abberation. Does your guantlet guardian now become a lliving creature? what con score if any does it get, etc etc etc Like the eye thing before take a really close look at the grafts, you can "swap out" some grafts while still retaining 2 or more graft's ablities.