A unique opportunity for an Epic Level rogue. [Archive] - Wizards Community

A unique opportunity for an Epic Level rogue. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Hidden
05-24-06, 06:40 PM My Sisters group recently decide to go for an epic level campaign. The DM decided that the characters should be about 39th level, and granted everyone the option to use a previous character or to build anew. For role-playing purposes, my sister decided dusted off her retired 20th level rogue, Alixeia, and give her 19 levels. What she can’t decide is what to put the levels in. She was hoping to either make Alixeia a little more combat oriented (I suggested 19 levels of monk but I didn’t know where to go from there) or somehow assign her skills so Alixeia would truly be The Worlds Greatest Thief.
I think her stats (with her various magic items) are something like;

str 17
dex 23
con 16
int 20
wis 14
chr 17

Anyone have a suggestion?
Caelic
05-24-06, 06:46 PM The problem with adding levels of monk is that she won't be gaining epic bonus feats.

There's a better way. Take ONE level of monk and then continue with Rogue--but take the Ascetic Rogue feat from Complete Adventurer.

She'll have the unarmed damage of a level 39 monk, and all of the benefits of a level 38 Rogue.
Hidden
05-24-06, 06:58 PM First; Holy Crap, you’re an evil genius.
Second; I thought that once you became a 21st level character (any class combo) the feats that you normally receive (not the bonus feats) could be Epic?
Third; what should be done with all those skill points?
Xeraph
05-24-06, 07:01 PM http://www.geocities.com/hammylover2000/panic.txt LINGERING DAMAGE!!! (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/epicFeats.html#lingering-damage)http://www.geocities.com/hammylover2000/panic.txt
Caelic
05-24-06, 07:07 PM Yes, the feats you normally receive will be Epic--but characters who are advancing a base class above 20th level, or those advancing a 10 level prestige class above 10th level, also get BONUS epic feats, depending on the class. Check the ELH for details...a Rogue, I think, gets a bonus feat every three levels.
Hidden
05-24-06, 07:13 PM Any skill suggestions or prestige classes?
Hidden
05-24-06, 09:18 PM Or Feat Combos?
Grave
05-24-06, 09:26 PM Well, definitely want to nab Dextrous Fortitude and Dextrous Will so she can use her Reflex save in lieu of the others. Also, Epic Dodge is a must as it negates all damage from a single attack per round from your Dodge opponent. Lingering Damage and Sneak Attack of Opportunity are also good choices for Rogues. Superior Initiative is also useful as initiative is king in Epic games. For some non epic feats, Telling Blow from PHB II is really good as every critical hit triggers sneak attack damage. Get Craven so that her sneak attack also does her HD in extra damage, and she probably has the reqs for Elusive Target. She might also consider the Spring Attack, Bounding Assault, Rapid Blitz combo if she uses monk levels. It will capitalize on her mobility.

-Grave & Co.
HotSake
05-24-06, 10:06 PM The DM decided that the characters should be about 39th level, and granted everyone the option to use a previous character or to build anew. For role-playing purposes, my sister decided dusted off her retired 20th level rogue nonspellcaster
IT'S A TRAP!
Hidden
05-24-06, 10:34 PM IT'S A TRAP!

Um, wah? :confused:
runestar
05-24-06, 10:38 PM Is it just me? But I can't think of that many scenarios where sneak attack damage is that applicable at epic lvs. :(
Hidden
05-24-06, 11:08 PM Hmm... The "Lower" Level Flunkys?
Valanthe
05-24-06, 11:21 PM Um, wah? :confused:

I'm guessing he's noticing the fact that in almost all epic games, unless you're a spellcaster, you're significantly underpowered, at least that's the impression that I get. Having only spent time at the epic threshold, and not much there (i.e. level 21) I'm not sure myself.
DavidWL
05-25-06, 12:51 AM Anyone have a suggestion?

Taking Heir of Siberys could give an extra couple of epic feats if you time things right.

Also, the Void Disciple is a superb prestige class. Take all ten levels and you get a whole lot more survivability.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ei/20030418a
ravenkith
05-25-06, 12:27 PM If she can, she might consider levels in Lurk, from complete psionics: at higher levels, it allows you to get sneak damage on plants, undead, constructs....and adds to your sneak dice total, and can also give you the ability to sneak when you normally wouldn't be able to.

Alternatively, 20 levels of rogue mixed with levels of warlock on a charge/shocktrooper/karmic strike/improved combat reflexes character could theoretically lead to some nasty combinations.

Of course, monk is pretty good too, although being without casting at epic is kind of like giving someone a bowl of icecream with no spoon.
swanyusd
05-25-06, 12:48 PM I will second the vote for void disciple. I think epic rogues, unless explicitly designed for combat, will fall far far behind any other epic characters in terms of combat (ie fighters, barbs, casters). The void disciple really makes the rogue the best sneaker possible, as the PC will become virtually undetectable. I HIGHLY suggest the feat darkstalker from the lords of madness book. MANY MANY creatures at epic level have other ways to see besides sight, and darkstalker forces them to make a spot and listen check even if they have blindsight or tremorsense or what have you. I also highly recommend that epic cloak of sneakiness (+30 H/MS and blur effect) and a custom magic item for disable device/open lock. Easily affordable stuf at 39th level.
Toxic_Shaman
05-25-06, 12:52 PM Sneak attack is pretty useless at Epic Levels. Most everything you'll face is immune.
Hidden
05-25-06, 02:58 PM For every four levels gained above 9th, the void incarnate can share this effect with one additional
As Void Incarnate is a ten level Prestige Class, I assume they are talking about total Character levels? Althogh I guess it would stop improving if She went back to Lawful.
What About four levels of Monk with the Ascetic Rogue feat and then use five epic feats to boost the Ki Strike to +6, making her bare fists count as epic weapons?
Necromas
05-25-06, 04:25 PM If you are evil, go ahead and take the Fang of Lolth PrC, you get 4 extra limbs (which can hold weapons) and a bite attack. Assuming you have enough dex, grab perfect multiweapon fighting, multiattack (for your bite attack) and multiweapon rend for an insane amount of attacks per round (which could potentially be sneak attacks ;) ) It also gives you +4 AC, +3d6 sneak attack, and a couple other cool things.

And that still leaves you 9 more levels to grab Ur Priest which gives you the 9th level spellcasting ability neccessary to get epic spells.
kingrat55
05-25-06, 05:34 PM Sneak attack is pretty useless at Epic Levels. Most everything you'll face is immune.

Agree.

Dont play a rogue by epic level, mostly all mobs are criticals immune or have mod or heavy fortification.
Hidden
05-26-06, 07:57 PM Dont play a rogue by epic level, mostly all mobs are criticals immune or have mod or heavy fortification.

So what would you recomend as her next 19 levels?
Or should she just build her so she avoids combat altogeter?
Hidden
08-26-06, 07:43 PM In the end, my Sister’s DM removed the Max Skill Cap, so she took four levels of monk and 15 levels of Rogue, dumping her skills in bluff and diplomacy. She was able to convince most of the monsters she ran into to pay her to work for the party. It was funny.
ChristopherGroves
08-26-06, 07:55 PM Nice. I'd have suggested a messload of PrC dips for epic land ... so many abilities like Mettle are just *so* useful.
Cochise
08-29-06, 01:35 PM you cant multiclass in monk. maybe im wrong
Grey_Mage
08-29-06, 04:37 PM There are plenty of feats that allow you to multiclass with monk, and many PRCs that allow it.. not to mention its just you cant take levels in monk once youve taken levels in something else after youve taken levels in monk... so you can always start.
Brol_The_Mighty
08-29-06, 11:46 PM There's also the OA monk variant, that gets rid of that restriction

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Hidden 05-24-06, 06:40 PM	My Sisters group recently decide to go for an epic level campaign. The DM decided that the characters should be about 39th level, and granted everyone the option to use a previous character or to build anew. For role-playing purposes, my sister decided dusted off her retired 20th level rogue, Alixeia, and give her 19 levels. What she can’t decide is what to put the levels in. She was hoping to either make Alixeia a little more combat oriented (I suggested 19 levels of monk but I didn’t know where to go from there) or somehow assign her skills so Alixeia would truly be The Worlds Greatest Thief. I think her stats (with her various magic items) are something like; str 17 dex 23 con 16 int 20 wis 14 chr 17 Anyone have a suggestion?
Caelic 05-24-06, 06:46 PM	The problem with adding levels of monk is that she won't be gaining epic bonus feats. There's a better way. Take ONE level of monk and then continue with Rogue--but take the Ascetic Rogue feat from Complete Adventurer. She'll have the unarmed damage of a level 39 monk, and all of the benefits of a level 38 Rogue.
Hidden 05-24-06, 06:58 PM	First; Holy Crap, you’re an evil genius. Second; I thought that once you became a 21st level character (any class combo) the feats that you normally receive (not the bonus feats) could be Epic? Third; what should be done with all those skill points?
Xeraph 05-24-06, 07:01 PM	http://www.geocities.com/hammylover2000/panic.txt LINGERING DAMAGE!!! (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/epicFeats.html#lingering-damage)http://www.geocities.com/hammylover2000/panic.txt
Caelic 05-24-06, 07:07 PM	Yes, the feats you normally receive will be Epic--but characters who are advancing a base class above 20th level, or those advancing a 10 level prestige class above 10th level, also get BONUS epic feats, depending on the class. Check the ELH for details...a Rogue, I think, gets a bonus feat every three levels.
Hidden 05-24-06, 07:13 PM	Any skill suggestions or prestige classes?
Hidden 05-24-06, 09:18 PM	Or Feat Combos?
Grave 05-24-06, 09:26 PM	Well, definitely want to nab Dextrous Fortitude and Dextrous Will so she can use her Reflex save in lieu of the others. Also, Epic Dodge is a must as it negates all damage from a single attack per round from your Dodge opponent. Lingering Damage and Sneak Attack of Opportunity are also good choices for Rogues. Superior Initiative is also useful as initiative is king in Epic games. For some non epic feats, Telling Blow from PHB II is really good as every critical hit triggers sneak attack damage. Get Craven so that her sneak attack also does her HD in extra damage, and she probably has the reqs for Elusive Target. She might also consider the Spring Attack, Bounding Assault, Rapid Blitz combo if she uses monk levels. It will capitalize on her mobility. -Grave & Co.
HotSake 05-24-06, 10:06 PM	The DM decided that the characters should be about 39th level, and granted everyone the option to use a previous character or to build anew. For role-playing purposes, my sister decided dusted off her retired 20th level rogue nonspellcaster IT'S A TRAP!
Hidden 05-24-06, 10:34 PM	IT'S A TRAP! Um, wah? :confused:
runestar 05-24-06, 10:38 PM	Is it just me? But I can't think of that many scenarios where sneak attack damage is that applicable at epic lvs. :(
Hidden 05-24-06, 11:08 PM	Hmm... The "Lower" Level Flunkys?
Valanthe 05-24-06, 11:21 PM	Um, wah? :confused: I'm guessing he's noticing the fact that in almost all epic games, unless you're a spellcaster, you're significantly underpowered, at least that's the impression that I get. Having only spent time at the epic threshold, and not much there (i.e. level 21) I'm not sure myself.
DavidWL 05-25-06, 12:51 AM	Anyone have a suggestion? Taking Heir of Siberys could give an extra couple of epic feats if you time things right. Also, the Void Disciple is a superb prestige class. Take all ten levels and you get a whole lot more survivability. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ei/20030418a
ravenkith 05-25-06, 12:27 PM	If she can, she might consider levels in Lurk, from complete psionics: at higher levels, it allows you to get sneak damage on plants, undead, constructs....and adds to your sneak dice total, and can also give you the ability to sneak when you normally wouldn't be able to. Alternatively, 20 levels of rogue mixed with levels of warlock on a charge/shocktrooper/karmic strike/improved combat reflexes character could theoretically lead to some nasty combinations. Of course, monk is pretty good too, although being without casting at epic is kind of like giving someone a bowl of icecream with no spoon.
swanyusd 05-25-06, 12:48 PM	I will second the vote for void disciple. I think epic rogues, unless explicitly designed for combat, will fall far far behind any other epic characters in terms of combat (ie fighters, barbs, casters). The void disciple really makes the rogue the best sneaker possible, as the PC will become virtually undetectable. I HIGHLY suggest the feat darkstalker from the lords of madness book. MANY MANY creatures at epic level have other ways to see besides sight, and darkstalker forces them to make a spot and listen check even if they have blindsight or tremorsense or what have you. I also highly recommend that epic cloak of sneakiness (+30 H/MS and blur effect) and a custom magic item for disable device/open lock. Easily affordable stuf at 39th level.
Toxic_Shaman 05-25-06, 12:52 PM	Sneak attack is pretty useless at Epic Levels. Most everything you'll face is immune.
Hidden 05-25-06, 02:58 PM	For every four levels gained above 9th, the void incarnate can share this effect with one additional As Void Incarnate is a ten level Prestige Class, I assume they are talking about total Character levels? Althogh I guess it would stop improving if She went back to Lawful. What About four levels of Monk with the Ascetic Rogue feat and then use five epic feats to boost the Ki Strike to +6, making her bare fists count as epic weapons?
Necromas 05-25-06, 04:25 PM	If you are evil, go ahead and take the Fang of Lolth PrC, you get 4 extra limbs (which can hold weapons) and a bite attack. Assuming you have enough dex, grab perfect multiweapon fighting, multiattack (for your bite attack) and multiweapon rend for an insane amount of attacks per round (which could potentially be sneak attacks ;) ) It also gives you +4 AC, +3d6 sneak attack, and a couple other cool things. And that still leaves you 9 more levels to grab Ur Priest which gives you the 9th level spellcasting ability neccessary to get epic spells.
kingrat55 05-25-06, 05:34 PM	Sneak attack is pretty useless at Epic Levels. Most everything you'll face is immune. Agree. Dont play a rogue by epic level, mostly all mobs are criticals immune or have mod or heavy fortification.
Hidden 05-26-06, 07:57 PM	Dont play a rogue by epic level, mostly all mobs are criticals immune or have mod or heavy fortification. So what would you recomend as her next 19 levels? Or should she just build her so she avoids combat altogeter?
Hidden 08-26-06, 07:43 PM	In the end, my Sister’s DM removed the Max Skill Cap, so she took four levels of monk and 15 levels of Rogue, dumping her skills in bluff and diplomacy. She was able to convince most of the monsters she ran into to pay her to work for the party. It was funny.
ChristopherGroves 08-26-06, 07:55 PM	Nice. I'd have suggested a messload of PrC dips for epic land ... so many abilities like Mettle are just so useful.
Cochise 08-29-06, 01:35 PM	you cant multiclass in monk. maybe im wrong
Grey_Mage 08-29-06, 04:37 PM	There are plenty of feats that allow you to multiclass with monk, and many PRCs that allow it.. not to mention its just you cant take levels in monk once youve taken levels in something else after youve taken levels in monk... so you can always start.
Brol_The_Mighty 08-29-06, 11:46 PM	There's also the OA monk variant, that gets rid of that restriction