Post/Author/DateTime	Post
SoulGamit 12-30-05, 09:20 PM	First, lets quote the relevent text: Ability Boost (Ex): As a dragon disciple gains levels in this prestige class, his ability scores increase as noted on Table: The Dragon Disciple. These increases stack and are gained as if through level advancement. Natural Armor Increase (Ex): At 1st, 4th, and 7th level, a gains an increase to the character’s existing natural armor (if any), as indicated on Table: The Dragon Disciple (the numbers represent the total increase gained to that point). As his skin thickens, a dragon disciple takes on more and more of his progenitor’s physical aspect. Dragon Apotheosis: At 10th level, a dragon disciple takes on the half-dragon template. His breath weapon reaches full strength (as noted above), and he gains +4 to Strength and +2 to Charisma. His natural armor bonus increases to +4, and he acquires low-light vision, 60-foot darkvision, immunity to sleep and paralysis effects, and immunity to the energy type used by his breath weapon (see above). The ability boosts are unnamed bonuses from class features. Nowere in Dragon Apotheosis does it state that it supercedes or replaces those abilities. This means that the Dragon Disciple gains +16 str +4 int +4cha +4con and +8 NA. A decent arguement could be made that the increases from the dragon apothosis don't stack with the half-dragon template, but is there a proper retort for the rest not stacking?
ressurrector 12-30-05, 09:39 PM	Edit: nvm, read that wrong
LordArkan 12-30-05, 09:42 PM	The fact that all of your boosts from Dragon Disciple happen to be the same as the boosts from the Half-Dragon template is very unlikely a coincidence. Besides, the class doesn't suck as-is, and would just be ridiculous with what you're proposing.
WizO_Mengde 12-30-05, 10:04 PM	The fact that all of your boosts from Dragon Disciple happen to be the same as the boosts from the Half-Dragon template is very unlikely a coincidence. Besides, the class doesn't suck as-is, and would just be ridiculous with what you're proposing. Steps out of lurkerdom Of course the difference here is that the ability boosts gained from the class progression count as if they were level advancements, while the template abilities are obviously racial in origin, which, RAW, would mean they stack. However, this could only count for the ability boosts, as the NA itself only gets set to +4 NA, rather then the Half Dragon +4 NA being added to the exisiting bonus.
Kresalak 12-30-05, 11:25 PM	I have always wondered about this, and, after reading over the DMG and SRD, I would say you are actually correct. Now Dragon Disciple is actually worth taking! Well, I think I'll go make myself a Hexblade5/DD10/something else 5
runestar 12-31-05, 12:22 AM	It doesn't matter if they stack or not. The point is that when you gain the half-dragon template at DD10, you get only the template(and the change in type), and not the bonuses as listed in the MM. The template is just that - a slate. The abilities you get are an entirely separate thing altogether.
SoulGamit 12-31-05, 12:30 AM	" At 10th level, a dragon disciple takes on the half-dragon template." How do you interpret that to someone not gaining the bonuses of the template?
Think0028 12-31-05, 12:48 AM	I don't know about the rest, but: Dragon Apotheosis: At 10th level, a dragon disciple takes on the half-dragon template. His breath weapon reaches full strength (as noted above), and he gains +4 to Strength and +2 to Charisma. His natural armor bonus increases to +4, and he acquires low-light vision, 60-foot darkvision, immunity to sleep and paralysis effects, and immunity to the energy type used by his breath weapon (see above). Emphasis mine. It's increased, not added.
SoulGamit 12-31-05, 12:50 AM	Agreed, the Armor bonus would only be +4 :(
ressurrector 12-31-05, 01:41 AM	I don't know about the rest, but: Emphasis mine. It's increased, not added. increases to +4, meaning that if it was +4 or higher, than there is no change. If it were to stack, it would read: increases by +4.
Grim_Revenant 12-31-05, 02:04 AM	See the thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8122383) this branched from for more discussion.
SoulGamit 12-31-05, 02:34 AM	It doesn't say that you don't, but it doesn't say that you don't get the ability to cast wish as a quickened Supernatural ability unlimited times per day either, and I'd like to see you argue that one. Yes, but no were does it say you do get that ability, however the first line of Dragon Apothosis stats "At 10th level, a dragon disciple takes on the half-dragon template." what else could this mean other then that you gain the benefits of it? And it should be pretty obvious that what you've now gained through the class is equal to what you would have gained through the template, plus more HD and some nifty abilities. I think you need to take a look at Acolyte of the Skin and Walker in the Waste, two other classes that gain templates without gaining any or very few of that template's abilities. Would you argue that they lose all of their class abilities when they gain their template?
LordArkan 12-31-05, 04:19 AM	I think you need to take a look at Acolyte of the Skin and Walker in the Waste, two other classes that gain templates without gaining any or very few of that template's abilities. Would you argue that they lose all of their class abilities when they gain their template? What template does Acolyte of the Skin gain?
1984 12-31-05, 09:46 AM	What template does Acolyte of the Skin gain? Half-fiend. Hmm, my DMG obviously doesn't work. Because it says that the first preq to a would-be Dragon Disciple is Race: Any nondragon (CAN NOT already be a half-dragon) True or false?
nachtmeister 12-31-05, 10:00 AM	true - and the you don't gain the bonuses from the template twice ! sorry but that is just :rolleyes:
hogarth 12-31-05, 11:01 AM	The ability boosts are unnamed bonuses from class features. Nowere in Dragon Apotheosis does it state that it supercedes or replaces those abilities. This means that the Dragon Disciple gains +16 str +4 int +4cha +4con and +8 NA. A decent arguement could be made that the increases from the dragon apothosis don't stack with the half-dragon template, but is there a proper retort for the rest not stacking? If you truly believe that the Dragon Disciple gets everything that the half-dragon template grants, then you won't mind the +3 level adjustment that comes with it, right? The point is, I believe the FAQ has made clear that this type of class is an exercise in applying the benefits of the template in pieces and thus avoiding the level adjustment.
Xabre 12-31-05, 11:10 AM	As the person who originally created that other DD thread... yeesh. I do have to agree with hogarth when he says that if you really went RAW, and not the spirit of the rules, you'll have to eat another +3 Level Adjustment. Granted, that's no big loss if you're really gaining an entire new set of bonuses... but really, Dragon Disciple should be looked at as a predecessor to a Savage Progression... the end result is that you now have the template, plus a few bonuses... not that you get another set of the template.
Prominence 12-31-05, 11:35 AM	I do have to agree with hogarth when he says that if you really went RAW, and not the spirit of the rules, you'll have to eat another +3 Level Adjustment. Completely rediculous. By saying this you would essentially kill off several worthwhile PrCs (and base classes, as the Dread Necromancer). Class benefits never incur level adjustment. Otherwise Dragon Disciple 10, Dread Necromancer 20, etc, would all be worthless. The 'spirit of the game' (not rules, which allow it to stack) would say your previous benefits are from becoming more half-dragon-like, and thus culminate into Half-Dragon (ie, at 10th you gain the rest of the benefits). However, that's not how it's worded. That also being said, the Dragon Apothesis ability seems to be trying to describe the rest of the transformation, or telling you what happens as you become a half-dragon (+4 str/ 2 cha, etc) instead of actually giving you the full benefits. If you view it as explanation text, it is probably what the writer intended.
SoulGamit 12-31-05, 11:40 AM	If you truly believe that the Dragon Disciple gets everything that the half-dragon template grants, then you won't mind the +3 level adjustment that comes with it, right? FAQ specifically states that I don't gain the LA. If you view it as explanation text, it is probably what the writer intended. Big if. Also, a half dragon (via the template's ability) is capped at 6d8 damage. However, the DD gets a breath weapon at 8d6... now look at the sentence structure: At 10th level, a dragon disciple takes on the half-dragon template. His breath weapon reaches full strength (as noted above), and he gains +4 to Strength and +2 to Charisma The first sentence and the second sentence are completely unrelated. The dragon breath has nothing to do with the half-dragon template, the DD allready has a breath weapon, so it's not improved by just gaining the template. The word "and" after that also implies that the stat gains are unrelated to the half-dragon template and the breath weapon. Why are you guys stating that dragon disciple loses all of its class features when it gains a template but Acolyte of the Skin and Walker in the Waste does not? I still don't understand that.
LordArkan 12-31-05, 11:45 AM	Half-fiend. Looking at Complete Arcane a third time, I don't see where it says he gains the Half-fiend template. Fiendish Symbiosis changes his type to outsider, but it doesn't say anything about gaining templates.
SoulGamit 12-31-05, 11:49 AM	Wow... your right... Acolyte doesn't gain the half-fiend template... go figure. My bad... coulda sworn it did, sorry.
Grim_Revenant 12-31-05, 11:52 AM	Looking at Complete Arcane a third time, I don't see where it says he gains the Half-fiend template. Fiendish Symbiosis changes his type to outsider, but it doesn't say anything about gaining templates.It doesn't. His type changes to outsider, he gets DR 10/good, and unlike other outsiders he can still be raised/resurrected. Would being able to be raised/resurrected mean that he's a native outsider, so he'd still need to sleep/eat?
SoulGamit 12-31-05, 12:05 PM	Technically no. Count it as gaining a metabolism like the demon who's skin he's wearing. Anyways, my point still stands for Walker in the Waste and Dread Necromancer
hogarth 12-31-05, 01:41 PM	Technically no. Count it as gaining a metabolism like the demon who's skin he's wearing. Anyways, my point still stands for Walker in the Waste and Dread Necromancer I don't think the Walker in the Waste and Dread Necromancer get any template abilities that add on to their class features, do they? The templates either add abilities that supersede a class feature (like immunity to mind-affecting spells) or abilities that are unrelated to class features (like paralyzing touch). I think it would be a bit facile to argue that the fact that Dragon Disciple adds +8 strength and +2 int/cha/con and that the half-dragon template adds the same modifiers is just a coincidence. And if, as you claimed above, the second sentence has no connection to the first, then why would they say that the Dragon Disciple gets immunity to sleep effects, darkvision, etc. when that's part of the half-dragon template anyway? The logical answer is that the sentences after the first indicate the effects of applying the half-dragon template. Or maybe they intended the player to add 60' darkvision + 60' darkvision = 120' darkvision?
SoulGamit 12-31-05, 01:50 PM	don't think the Walker in the Waste and Dread Necromancer get any template abilities that add on to their class features, do they? I'm not sure about dread necro, but walker in the waste certainly does. It gains the heat aura thing and such, which is not removed when yo ugain the Walker in the Waste Template. The templates either add abilities that supersede a class feature (like immunity to mind-affecting spells) or abilities that are unrelated to class features (like paralyzing touch). True, but in those cases the effects can not stack. Sure, you gain immunity to mind-effecting spells twice but it just has no noticable game effect. I think it would be a bit facile to argue that the fact that Dragon Disciple adds +8 strength and +2 int/cha/con and that the half-dragon template adds the same modifiers is just a coincidence. It was how they wrote it. And if, as you claimed above, the second sentence has no connection to the first, then why would they say that the Dragon Disciple gets immunity to sleep effects, darkvision, etc. when that's part of the half-dragon template anyway? Because they have nothing better to do? WotC isn't exactly lacking in redundancies or inaccurate examples. The logical answer is that the sentences after the first indicate the effects of applying the half-dragon template. Or maybe they intended the player to add 60' darkvision + 60' darkvision = 120' darkvision? If darkvision stacks like that (which I don't think it does) then yes. And they can not jus tbe reffering to the effects of the half-dragon template because of the breath weapon, which improves beyond what is normally allowed by just the half-dragon template.
Prominence 12-31-05, 01:55 PM	Actually, half of the Dread Necromancer bonuses are partial lich templates, but the amusing thing is that a Dread Necromancer's Fear Aura is different from the lich template Fear Aura. Similarly, the DN gains fortification which, in theory is based on being more undead, but there are spells which allow undead to be crit-able where the DN's fortification should by RAW apply. Finally, the Charnel Touch ability is to mimic the lich's natural touch attack but is functionally different, too. At any rate, by the same logic people are applying to the Dragon Disciple, half of the Dread Necromancer's benefits (including the much better fear aura and fortification) disappear after you become a lich.
TwistedShadow 12-31-05, 03:04 PM	Ok so If I have gathered an understanding of this thread correctly someone is saying that the wording of the final ability for Dragon Disciple basicly says they get all of those bonuses of Half-dragon template and all of the bonuses of the class stacked Right? Well lets do a quick look at each of them. Half Dragon Template: +8 Str,+2 Con,+2 Int, +2 Cha and Natural Armor +4 10th level Dragon Disciple +8 Str, +2 Con, +2 Int, +2 Cha and Natural Armor +4 I fail to see why there is a huge arguement over this since it is quite simple and pretty well laid out. Dragon Disciple allows a character to slowly take on the Half Dragon Template and there by avoid the nasty +3 LA. Plus gaining increased spell casting ability to boot. How can you possibly sit there and then try to gain double the benefit of a template? My guess is that you are trying to get support for your arguement with your DM about this one because he (like most of us) understands that you can not gain the benefits of a template twice. If you take the dragon template and minus the benefits that are granted by Dragon Apotheosis you will find that it is equal to all the things you have gained over the first 9 level of the PrC! (shocking but true!) Any of my players who would try that with me would find that pushing something so horribly munchkined is a quick way to have bad things happen to a character, especially an untimely demise of that character or more likely you would find that what you do the DM can exploit too and you would find a cult of Dragon Disciples who beleive that the character had to have their permission to become a dragon disciple and would dispatch a team of characters using the exact same gimik and using their magic to put all the other party members safely on the side lines while they wipe the walls with the offending character. So anyone who wants to open up that can of worms on a party, just remember that you are just adding a terrible force to the DM's Hand. Sorry, reading alot of this thread has put some serious venom in my blood on this topic so I apologize of the little rant there
Prominence 12-31-05, 03:32 PM	It's more of an attempt to make the class 'not worthless' as there's no sense in a +10 LA PrC over a +3 template (minus some hitdice regained by LA Buy-off). A DM fiat can kill even Pun-pun. I don't see any reason to bring that into this.
Hamsterlord 12-31-05, 03:34 PM	Half Dragon Template: +8 Str,+2 Con,+2 Int, +2 Cha and Natural Armor +4, ECL +3 Dragon Disciple +8 Str, +2 Con, +2 Int, +2 Cha and Natural Armor +4, ECL +10 Fixed. Although allowing the bonuses to stack wouldn't be game-breaking, the text after "gains the half-dragon template" is explanatory, not separate abilities. At 10th level, a dragon disciple takes on the half-dragon template. His breath weapon reaches full strength (as noted above), and he gains +4 to Strength and +2 to Charisma. His natural armor bonus increases to +4, and he acquires low-light vision, 60-foot darkvision, immunity to sleep and paralysis effects, and immunity to the energy type used by his breath weapon. After the word "template" there is a period. If the sentence was to have the abilities all be separate it would be a comma turning it into list, but since it isn't the remaining text must be explanatory.
MechaboyDos 12-31-05, 06:52 PM	Wow, and I thought I was a rules lawyer. What you're proposing is utterly ridiculous. It should be exceedingly obvious that the class doesn't stack with the Half-Dragon template. Just because it says "gains the Half-Dragon template" does not mean the bonuses apply twice. The text "gains the Half-Dragon template" is referring to the cumulative effects of the prestige class. Any attempt to posit otherwise is patently absurd.
Always-Late 12-31-05, 07:02 PM	Half Dragon Template: +8 Str,+2 Con,+2 Int, +2 Cha and Natural Armor +4, ECL +3 Dragon Disciple +8 Str, +2 Con, +2 Int, +2 Cha and Natural Armor +4, 10 HD, ECL +10Just to make the comparison look slightly more fair... Re-"fixed."
SoulGamit 12-31-05, 10:56 PM	I fail to see why there is a huge arguement over this since it is quite simple and pretty well laid out. Dragon Disciple allows a character to slowly take on the Half Dragon Template and there by avoid the nasty +3 LA. Were was this stated? Yes the dragon disciple "pays" for the LA, but it was never stated that its abilities were just meant to build up to the template. How can you possibly sit there and then try to gain double the benefit of a template? My guess is that you are trying to get support for your arguement with your DM about this one because he (like most of us) understands that you can not gain the benefits of a template twice. Incorrect, my current characters consist of an enlightened fist and an artificer, and my next character will probably be that ghost build I just made up or any one of my other half-done concepts. Also, the gaining a template twice thing was a bad choice of wording on my part, but there is nothing to support a dragon disciple losing his class abilities when he reaches level 10. If you take the dragon template and minus the benefits that are granted by Dragon Apotheosis you will find that it is equal to all the things you have gained over the first 9 level of the PrC! (shocking but true!) Your point is...? Any of my players who would try that with me would find that pushing something so horribly munchkined is a quick way to have bad things happen to a character, especially an untimely demise of that character or more likely you would find that what you do the DM can exploit too and you would find a cult of Dragon Disciples who beleive that the character had to have their permission to become a dragon disciple and would dispatch a team of characters using the exact same gimik and using their magic to put all the other party members safely on the side lines while they wipe the walls with the offending character. So anyone who wants to open up that can of worms on a party, just remember that you are just adding a terrible force to the DM's Hand. Over +8 strength, +2 Con, +2 int and +2 charisma? What the hell do you do when one of your spellcasters casts polymorph, throw contingent meteors after them? Although allowing the bonuses to stack wouldn't be game-breaking, the text after "gains the half-dragon template" is explanatory, not separate abilities. After the word "template" there is a period. If the sentence was to have the abilities all be separate it would be a comma turning it into list, but since it isn't the remaining text must be explanatory. Then how do you justify the breath weapon, which is not gained by the template and goes beyond what the template offers? I did say there was a sound arguement against gaining the last +4 strength and last +2 cha from the template, if it is explanatory. That is an interpretation that is, at best, left up to the DM. Wow, and I thought I was a rules lawyer. What you're proposing is utterly ridiculous. It should be exceedingly obvious that the class doesn't stack with the Half-Dragon template. Just because it says "gains the Half-Dragon template" does not mean the bonuses apply twice. Again, bad choice of wording on my part... you do not gain the template twice, but the template stacks with the class. What I am proposing is less rediculess then you proposing that a class mysteriously loses all of its abilities at the tenth level with no explination. The text "gains the Half-Dragon template" is referring to the cumulative effects of the prestige class. Any attempt to posit otherwise is patently absurd Where is your source on this?