Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Daeger 08-27-06, 06:31 PM	Like Hunter's Mercy, the Ranger spell in Spell Compendium, I'm looking for some sort of way to be able to swing and guarentee a critical hit. Does something like this exist?
Seerow 08-27-06, 06:56 PM	I think one of the weapon properties in BoED gives the ability to always confirm crits against evil outsiders. Other than that, I've got nothing.
Daeger 08-27-06, 06:58 PM	I think one of the weapon properties in BoED gives the ability to always confirm crits against evil outsiders. Other than that, I've got nothing. I'm not looking for automatically confirming, I'm looking for automatically critting. Or atleast automatically threatening.
Neonsamurai 08-27-06, 07:32 PM	There is no such thing. However you could work towards auto-crits with high threat range weapons, improved crit / keen edge, power critical and bless weapon (which auto confirms crits vs. evil foes). Disciple of Dispater also has some very nice crit range enhancers (triple threat range which specifically stacks with improved critical feat).
Pinky's brain 08-27-06, 07:38 PM	Hunter's mercy doesn't say you have to make a ranged attack with your bow ;)
Kirak 08-27-06, 07:43 PM	Nimblewright 6 Fighter 6 Disciple of Dispater 8 Crit (15-20) Preq Crit Threat range x3 at lvl 8 Take Improved Critical on your natural weapons and file off the 1 on your D20 and you'll threat every time.
Pinky's brain 08-27-06, 09:16 PM	3.0 is ancient history ... from the improved critical feat : This effect doesn’t stack with any other effect that expands the threat range of a weapon.The augmented critical ability is clearly an effect which expands the threat range of a weapon, so no dice.
Zendu 08-27-06, 10:22 PM	Id be surprised if you could even get 50% crits tbh, the change to imp crit really cut down on the total crits.
Pinky's brain 08-27-06, 11:05 PM	Well as I said, hunter's mercy does not say you have to make a ranged attack with your bow.
Daeger 08-27-06, 11:11 PM	Well as I said, hunter's mercy does not say you have to make a ranged attack with your bow. I realize that, but if you're smacking someone with it, you're not really using it AS a bow. You're using it as an improvised weapon of something else. And that makes a difference.
Pinky's brain 08-27-06, 11:20 PM	It doesn't say you have to use it as a bow either, you just have to attack with it. Beggers can't be choosers, you won't find anything better. You don't have to use it as an improvised weapon, elvencraft from RotW takes care of that.
unusualsuspect 08-27-06, 11:31 PM	Isn't there some form of psionic auto-critting? I could've sworn there was a Psionic feat that allows you to expend your psionic focus to automatically crit.
Daeger 08-28-06, 12:58 AM	It doesn't say you have to use it as a bow either, you just have to attack with it. Beggers can't be choosers, you won't find anything better. You don't have to use it as an improvised weapon, elvencraft from RotW takes care of that. *sigh* Seriously, this doesn't work. It's the same reason why a thrown dagger doesn't count for Swashbuckler's insightful strike. This type of thing has been ruled on before. Elvencraft makes it so you're attacking with a quarterstaff when you're using it as a melee weapon. If you're not using it as a bow, then as far as the rules go, you're not using a bow. It doesn't work both ways.
prototype00 08-28-06, 02:36 AM	*sigh* Seriously, this doesn't work. It's the same reason why a thrown dagger doesn't count for Swashbuckler's insightful strike. This type of thing has been ruled on before. Thats a can of worms you just opened there, buddy, now I'm going to have to ask CustServ about it. prototype00
WushuNinja 08-28-06, 03:10 AM	Isn't there some form of psionic auto-critting? I could've sworn there was a Psionic feat that allows you to expend your psionic focus to automatically crit. So did i, i was about to post that it was coup de grace weapon mod from psionics, but it's changed from the 3.0 version. it sucks now.
jshinply 08-28-06, 03:16 AM	Isn't there some form of psionic auto-critting? I could've sworn there was a Psionic feat that allows you to expend your psionic focus to automatically crit. Instinctive Consummator from the Complete Psionic. Evil with a vorpal weapon with a high threat range.
Daeger 08-28-06, 04:01 AM	I was kind of looking for automatically threatening, not automatically confirming. Guess not?
artaxerxes 08-28-06, 05:18 AM	Modern SRD Arcana feat ‘Power Critical’ You may threaten a critical hit if you succeed in hitting an opponent. Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +10, proficiency with weapon. Benefit: You may spend an action point before making an attack with a weapon with which you are proficient. If the attack hits, it automatically threatens a critical hit (regardless of whether the attack roll falls within the weapon’s actual threat range). You must roll to confirm the critical hit, as normal. Normal: You must roll in the threat range of a weapon, and then confirm that threat to score a critical hit.
Legdiwena 08-28-06, 05:28 AM	if you could always threaten, then AC would be meaningless
Duncs 08-28-06, 06:47 AM	Not really, as it's only a natural 20 that auto-hits, not a threat of any roll. If you cant hit it with a 19, you dont hit it even if your weapon has a 19-20 threat range. Same deal with Vorpal - a natural 20 procs vorpal, not a critical threat.
Ashianyl 08-28-06, 07:52 AM	There is a bow in RotW - Elvencraft bow, allows you to use it in melee as a staff. Perhaps that's what you are looking for? :)
Neonsamurai 08-28-06, 10:16 AM	3.0 is ancient history ... from the improved critical feat : The augmented critical ability is clearly an effect which expands the threat range of a weapon, so no dice. Specific rule overrides general rule. Disciple of Dispater's augmented critical ability description specifically states that it does stack with improved critical (but not with keen edge or similar weapon enhancements). So this does work in 3.5 (and is the only way to get threat range that sky high)
Kirby179 08-28-06, 10:24 AM	Ashi - I think you missed the above comment, already been shot down. As of currently, there is no real way to 'guarentee' a melee crit outside of Psionics. Additionally, the Iron Power effect would count as a specific exception to the general statement that Keen and Imp Crit don't stack, as it is specifically named in the ability as stacking. Basically the two effects of Iron Power are 1: this doubles your crit range and 2: this makes Imp Crit stack with something, namely, Iron Power. Part of the class ability itself is devoted to causing Improved Critical to stack.
kaiza 08-28-06, 10:30 AM	Specific rule overrides general rule. Disciple of Dispater's augmented critical ability description specifically states that it does stack with improved critical (but not with keen edge or similar weapon enhancements). So this does work in 3.5 (and is the only way to get threat range that sky high) Wasn't the BoVD 3.0? k.
Pinky's brain 08-28-06, 11:04 AM	thing has been ruled on before.Neither the Sage nor one of the prefab CustServ answers have ruled on anything remotely like this AFAIK. Elvencraft makes it so you're attacking with a quarterstaff when you're using it as a melee weapon. If you're not using it as a bow, then as far as the rules go, you're not using a bow. It doesn't work both ways.Are you or are you not attacking with your elvencraft longbow when you use it as a quarterstaff? If not where did it go? Neonsamurai, sorry I wasn't clear ... I was talking about the nimblewright.
FlimFlam 08-28-06, 11:06 AM	Power Critical is also a 3.0 feat from... Either Sword and Fist or Masters of the Wild... I forget which. Anyway, it let you autothreaten with an attack 1/day. This feat has since been updated for 3.5 and is totally different than what it did before (now it gives +4 when confirming crits).
DarknessEternal 08-28-06, 11:07 AM	In Rokugan, there's a feat called The Pincers Hold, the Tail Strikes that lets you automatically threaten when you feint and hit with your next attack . The feat itself has some pretty steep requirements and feinting doesn't tend to be that easy for guys who can actually meet those requirements.
Caelic 08-28-06, 01:02 PM	Specific rule overrides general rule. Disciple of Dispater's augmented critical ability description specifically states that it does stack with improved critical (but not with keen edge or similar weapon enhancements). More recent rule overrides outdated rule. Improved Critical, which is more recent, specifically states that it stacks with no other effects; this trumps the older text of DoD, which was written with another version of Improved Critical in mind.
Elf-Killer 08-28-06, 01:17 PM	More recent rule overrides outdated rule. Improved Critical, which is more recent, specifically states that it stacks with no other effects; this trumps the older text of DoD, which was written with another version of Improved Critical in mind. Not exactly, a more recent general rule, overrides an outdated general rule, while a specific rule overrides a general rule until a new one is introduced... so basicly, DoD still works, even if it was written during 3.0 times...
Gryftir 08-28-06, 01:23 PM	Technically until a new version of Discipline of Dispater's Iron Power comes out, the power works as it did in 3.0. BoVD was written just before 3.5 as was supposed to be easier to use with 3.5 material. Anyway 3.5 is an update, not a rewrite.
smswigart 08-28-06, 02:15 PM	Hunter's mercy doesn't say you have to make a ranged attack with your bow ;) Actually, it does. In the Spell Compendium, it specifically says "Your first hit with a bow..."
FlimFlam 08-28-06, 02:27 PM	Actually, it does. In the Spell Compendium, it specifically says "Your first hit with a bow..." Actually, it doesn't. It doesn't say ranged attack with a bow. So I take my bow and thwack you over the head with it, with a -4 penalty to hit, since I am using it improvised. If I hit you over the head with my bow, did I not hit with a bow?
SigmaJargon 08-28-06, 02:36 PM	Actually, it doesn't. It doesn't say ranged attack with a bow. So I take my bow and thwack you over the head with it, with a -4 penalty to hit, since I am using it improvised. If I hit you over the head with my bow, did I not hit with a bow?The page that used to contain the Quiver of Anariel also had a sort of special elven bow that was designed to be used in melee as well as at range, IIRC. Unfortunately, I can't seem to find a working link anymore. The link Surreal has in his handy links no longer gives the desired page. (FR: The Lone Drow: Companions of the Hall (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=books/fr/lonedrowstats)) EDIT: Google has a cache of the page here (http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:GJNCe7zfXtEJ:www.wizards. com/default.asp%3Fx%3Dbooks/fr/lonedrowstats+Quiver+of+Anariel+FR:+The+ Lone+Drow:+Companions+of+the+Hall&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1). Other than that, it may be gone.
Surreal 08-28-06, 03:24 PM	The page that used to contain the Quiver of Anariel also had a sort of special elven bow that was designed to be used in melee as well as at range, IIRC. Unfortunately, I can't seem to find a working link anymore. The link Surreal has in his handy links no longer gives the desired page. (FR: The Lone Drow: Companions of the Hall (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=books/fr/lonedrowstats)) EDIT: Google has a cache of the page here (http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:GJNCe7zfXtEJ:www.wizards. com/default.asp%3Fx%3Dbooks/fr/lonedrowstats+Quiver+of+Anariel+FR:+The+ Lone+Drow:+Companions+of+the+Hall&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1). Other than that, it may be gone. Darn... maybe I should copy it into an sblock? I've saved the page as text in the meantime...
prototype00 08-29-06, 02:42 AM	*sigh* Seriously, this doesn't work. It's the same reason why a thrown dagger doesn't count for Swashbuckler's insightful strike. This type of thing has been ruled on before. Well, it would seem as if it does work. Voila: Dear CustServ, Does the intelligence bonus to damage the swashbuckler gets to finesseable weapons work with thrown finesseable weapons, i.e. the humble dagger? Or is there something in the rules that prevents this? It looks like you would be able to apply the Insightful Strike ability to any weapon, as long is it is light or a weapon that you could apply weapon finesse to. So you would be able to apply it to a thrown weapon as long as it met one of these conditions. Have fun and good gaming! Though considering the amount of queries raised about this ability, someone should have asked this question to CustServ a year ago. prototype00
Daeger 08-29-06, 04:35 AM	Well, it would seem as if it does work. Voila: Though considering the amount of queries raised about this ability, someone should have asked this question to CustServ a year ago. prototype00 It's been ruled against before, actually. Maybe I'll send question furthering this topic in the future, but for now, it's moot. Hunter's Mercy was a nice idea, but it's not something any GM would let you get away with. I'll make a new thread if I send the question and get a response, but I've been sort of busy. The question would have to be very, very detailed.
Caelic 08-29-06, 09:50 AM	This is yet another case of "The rules don't specifically SAY it!" "The rules don't specifically SAY it!" is poor grounds for optimization, at best. I won't say that every single reasonable person on the planet would understand that sentence to mean "When using a bow as a bow," but I think it's a pretty safe bet that 95 out of 100 would...and that number might be higher anywhere but a board where people go out of their way looking for rules loopholes.
Duncs 08-29-06, 09:57 AM	This is yet another case of "The rules don't specifically SAY it!" "The rules don't specifically SAY it!" is poor grounds for optimization, at best. I won't say that every single reasonable person on the planet would understand that sentence to mean "When using a bow as a bow," but I think it's a pretty safe bet that 95 out of 100 would...and that number might be higher anywhere but a board where people go out of their way looking for rules loopholes. /agree
ChristopherGroves 08-29-06, 10:06 AM	Oh come now ... obvioulsy this means I can use a garotte and as long as I tie it in a bow, I'm golden. I'd actually adjucate this differently. If you hit someone on the head w/ your bow as an improvised weapon ... you're using an improvised weapon. It could be called a bow or a chair, but it's an improvised weapon. If it is one of those bows that you can specifically use in a melee attack (staff bow or whatever it is called) I'd adjucate in my games that the spell would work. You're using the bow ... not using the bow as an improvised weapon. Anywho, that's how I'd be picky.
Caelic 08-29-06, 10:12 AM	Hey, if that's the way you want to read the spell, no problemo--it's then useless for ranged attacks, since it specifies a hit with a bow and not a hit with an arrow. Sounds to me like people want to have their cake and a +277 bonus to their Eat Cake skill, too.
ChristopherGroves 08-29-06, 10:44 AM	(I think I was agreeing with you in 99.9% of cases and offering my opinion on the melee-bow item) Using it as an improvised weapon would make it ... an improvised weapon. Your focus(bow) feat wouldn't work so I wouldn't let the spell work either ... in that instance it is no longer a bow. With the exception of the "can use this bow as a melee weapon" at least. I'd have to read the description of the item to see. If it says "you can use the Uber Bow as a melee weapon" then I'd let it work. If it says "you can use the Uber Bow as a club/staff in melee" then I wouldn't as it is no longer a bow ... just like a chair is no longer a chair when the drunk monk hits you with it ... it's an improvised weapon ... just like a Rod of Whatever isn't a rod ... it strikes as a Light Mace (and thus would be treated as a light mace) ... and just like enchanted armor +2 with spikes doesn't give you an enhancement bonus of +2 to hit on the spikes unless you enchant them seperately. Is that confusing enough? All I'm saying is that if there's some silly item out there that lets you hit people on the head while in melee and its still considered to be used as a bow (including focus, specialization, etc.) then I'd let the spell work in that case. With a normal bow, I would not as it has become an improvised weapon that happens to look like a bow.
Pinky's brain 08-29-06, 11:25 AM	just like a Rod of Whatever isn't a rod ... it strikes as a Light Mace For a specific purpose it doesn't count as a rod ... it is of course still a rod in general. Or would you honestly say "I hit the ogre with my light mace" instead of "I hit the ogre with my rod"? Or even more apt ... if you did have an elvencraft bow would you say "I hit the ogre with my bow"? 99 people out of a 100 would. Hmm, "hit with a bow" ... that phrase reminds me of something. I don't need to play semantic games, I don't need to find tenuous links to "rules" which are actually only convention and don't exist in writing. I just need to take what it says at face value. I know it's not rules as intended, but that's because it was a badly written spell ... if the simplest interpretation of the spell in accordance with the rules is the wrong one that is bad writing.
ChristopherGroves 08-29-06, 12:59 PM	Yeah but there are tons of those. Only thing you can do is pray it ends up in errata someday or that you get a ruling from custserv and it lives up to DM fiat. My personal favorite today is "anyspell". Let's say I have a Warmage who takes Arcane Disciple (spell domain) and gets the "anyspell" spell. The text specifically says you use your "cleric level", etc. etc. It's right there in the words. CustServ however ruled that this should be replaced with something like "the level of whatever class you're using to cast anyspell" ... So, back to the question ... would you let someone using a rod in combat that says you attack like its a light mace use feats or abilities that deal specifically with light maces?
Caelic 08-29-06, 01:23 PM	I know it's not rules as intended, but that's because it was a badly written spell ... if the simplest interpretation of the spell in accordance with the rules is the wrong one that is bad writing. The simplest interpretation is that it's a ranged hit. Bows are designed to attack at range. Saying, "Oh, but there's a special bow in a specific supplement that could possibly be used in melee, and therefore the simplest interpretation is that the spell applies to melee combat!" is...well, not simple. If you want to use a literal reading of the rules, Hunter's Mercy cannot be used at range, because you're not "hitting with your bow" at range--you're hitting with an arrow. When the literal reading of the rules has a ridiculous result, it's probably not the right one. Remember: the rules stipulate that dice be rolled, and specify the number of sides. At no time do the rules say that those dice cannot be loaded, or must have sides numbered sequentially from 1 to 6 or 1 to 20. By the same sort of logic, I can say that loaded dice or dice with no "1" on them are perfectly legal, because the simplest reading is that a die is a die, and to specify honest and unbiased dice is to read into the "intent" of the rules.
SigmaJargon 08-29-06, 02:11 PM	What? You mean you DON'T use doubling dice instead of standard d6's in your games? :eek: On a more serious note, shooting an arrow is an attack with a bow, regardless of the fact that is it the arrow that strikes the opponent. I don't think Hunter's Mercy in melee is a problem, considering that using a bow in melee is generally much less optimal than using it at range. The Lone Companion elven bows basically lose their magical properties when striking in melee. Other bows are improvised, won't do much base damage, and might even break, if your DM is feeling nasty. If a player wanted to use Hunter's Mercy with a bow in melee in a campaign I was DM'ing, I'd probably let him - but then again, I'm quite sure he'd rather be using the spell at range.
UMiskatonic 08-29-06, 02:35 PM	On the other side, you may want to investigate bless weapon, or swift bless weapon. Should you threaten, you then automatically confirm. Combined with a high threat range weapon, it could come close to what you want.
Grey_Mage 08-29-06, 04:43 PM	I realize that, but if you're smacking someone with it, you're not really using it AS a bow. You're using it as an improvised weapon of something else. And that makes a difference. ElvenCraft, from RotW... now your hitting them with a club, or better yet a quarterstaff.
Grey_Mage 08-29-06, 04:51 PM	It's been ruled against before, actually. Maybe I'll send question furthering this topic in the future, but for now, it's moot. Hunter's Mercy was a nice idea, but it's not something any GM would let you get away with. I'll make a new thread if I send the question and get a response, but I've been sort of busy. The question would have to be very, very detailed. And why not? its just using your intellegence in order to strike at the proper spot do do more damage than to your enemy... flavor wise it makes sense. RAW... *shrugs* its a finesse weapon, but weapon finesse doesnt apply to thrown weapons, I can see the conundrum.
Pinky's brain 08-29-06, 05:12 PM	The simplest interpretation is that it's a ranged hit. Bows are designed to attack at range. The simplest interpretation is that it's a hit. Saying, "Oh, but there's a special bow in a specific supplement that could possibly be used in melee, and therefore the simplest interpretation is that the spell applies to melee combat!" is...well, not simple.That just makes it easier to hit with.
Zendu 08-29-06, 08:09 PM	The simplest interpretation is that it's a hit. Well the most logical one is that your using it as a ranged weapon. This is like saying that ewp lets you throw bastard swords because your proficant with them in one hand.
Pinky's brain 08-29-06, 09:11 PM	EWP with bastard swords would let you throw one as a standard action instead of a full round action without ... but you can throw one either way.
Legdiwena 08-29-06, 09:13 PM	but you still throw at penalty, it's not meant to be thrown