Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Piuro 11-06-06, 02:15 AM	Okay, a friend is starting up Living Greyhawk and while we were working on his character, we came across an interesting concept. The problem is, this build on its own is fairly weak, so I thought id toss a monkey wrench into it (Though the CO boards dont toss monkey wrenches into things, they toss a rabid dire monkey with a +5 vorpal realitybane wrench into it, then shake the cage). Was thinking this (Remember LG stops at 16th level, and access to certain things is limited). Human (28 Point Buy) STR 14 DEX 12 CON 10 INT 10 WIS 15 CHA 14 Monk: Stunning Fist (Bonus), Combat Casting, Power Attack Monk: Combat Reflexes (Bonus) Paladin: Cleave Paladin: WIS +1 Paladin: Paladin: Great Cleave Sacred Fist (for the rest) So, how can we make this not suck? Any suggestions?
PhoenixInferno 11-06-06, 02:29 AM	I'd dump STR in favor of CON.
Piuro 11-06-06, 02:31 AM	All of it, or just part. For a melee build?
PhoenixInferno 11-06-06, 02:32 AM	All of it, or just part. For a melee build?Think about it this way - if you can't survive an attack, how do you kill it?
X-Codes 11-06-06, 03:56 AM	Also, -1 Wisdom for +2 Dexterity. Another +1 AC right off.
Piuro 11-06-06, 04:58 AM	Okay, keep the ideas flowing. How are the feat choices?
Empirate 11-06-06, 05:17 AM	Great Cleave is a no-no in my book. Take Weapon Focus (unarmed strike) or Dodge (leads to Mobility, Spring Attack, which is really nice with Monk's high speed).
HatTrick 11-06-06, 12:05 PM	I would say that cleave is a good call actually. Its a pretty standard choice for a good melee build, I think I'd rather that than a +1 on my attacks. You should check out the feats in complete warrior that allow you to convert your turn undead uses into things like extra damage and extra AC. The extra STR is actually gonna help you a bit, but with no armor you might need the con till you can find alternative ways to kick up your AC. Without the STR though you can't get the combat feats you need. I dunno what your char concept is, but you could use Vow of Poverty from exaulted deeds. That is really all about what fits with the char though.
mkill 11-06-06, 01:24 PM	What is Combat Casting good for? In the very rare cases the character will want to cast a spell in low levels, he shouldn't be surrounded by enemies anyway... And then there is always the 5 ft. step back. Drop that. I don't know off-hand but I think Ability Focus (Stunning Fist) is possible in LG, that would make the char good at something. Also, I'd switch Combat Reflexes for Deflect Arrows if Dex is only 12. I second that Great Cleave is questionable. The char would likely be on the low end when it comes to dealing raw damage, so he won't cleave much anyway. Also, Greater Cleave assumes that you have at least three enemies within 5 ft., which is not a good idea with a Con +0 and AC 14. Actually, I don't see any melee survival ability in this char, and he is not proficient with bows and can't cast spells. Ugh. What kind of weapon is the character planning to use? Unarmed Strike? Sword and Board? Consider Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike). What does he do when he needs to attack on range? The main problem of the build is, that he won't be a good Paladin without a higher Cha, but he won't be a good monk if he doesn't drop Cha to boost Dex and Con. Last comment, the Sacred Fist PrC assumes a Monk/Cleric. With the rather unimpressive Paladin spellcasting, the char is way below optimum, as he is basicly wasting the caster level progression of his PrC. A radical variant would be to drop the paladin idea and go for Monk / Cleric / Sacred Fist, and drop Cha a few points in the process.
Piuro 11-06-06, 02:05 PM	What is Combat Casting good for? Prerequisite for the prestige class. I don't know off-hand but I think Ability Focus (Stunning Fist) is possible in LG, that would make the char good at something. Im pretty sure you cant use ability focus Also, I'd switch Combat Reflexes for Deflect Arrows if Dex is only 12. Again, class requirement. What kind of weapon is the character planning to use? Unarmed Strike? Sword and Board? Consider Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike). Unarmed strike, but good idea on the feat. What does he do when he needs to attack on range? Bolas is underrated. Last comment, the Sacred Fist PrC assumes a Monk/Cleric. With the rather unimpressive Paladin spellcasting, the char is way below optimum, as he is basicly wasting the caster level progression of his PrC. Amazing that you managed to click a link, read a thread, and post without really looking at the title. Im well aware its a crappy build, but it seems fun. the CO boards are very good at de-crappyifying things. A radical variant would be to drop the paladin idea and go for Monk / Cleric / Sacred Fist, and drop Cha a few points in the process. Gasp, you mean I could do a completely different concept as a way of making this concept work? Didnt think so.
Edea 11-06-06, 02:12 PM	After reading the character entry (and being new to/not so great at this, no less), the first thing that popped into my head was multiple attribute dependancy. A Monk/Paladin really only has one 'semi-dump' stat (Intelligence). In a point-buy system, that's a problem. Monk: Stunning Fist (Bonus), Combat Casting, Power Attack Monk: Combat Reflexes (Bonus) Paladin: Cleave Paladin: WIS +1 Paladin: Paladin: Great Cleave Sacred Fist (for the rest) One of sacred fist's abilities (sacred flames) is Wisdom dependant, as well as your divine spells (most likely), and also your Armor Class (especially seeing that Sacred Fist continues supplementing said attribute). Wisdom also powers Will saving throws (I noticed Sacred Fist doesn't have a good Will save progression, so having a high Wisdom will make all three saves truly prodigious in magnitude). Power Attack, Cleave, and Great Cleave do not fit this build; Sacred Fist doesn't look like it's geared toward heavy melee offense. Since it's likely you'll be in melee for the purpose of healing or defense (and since you won't be wearing armor anytime soon since you'll lose all of those AC bonuses from the classes chosen), try to find more defense-oriented substitutes (can't think of any off the top of my head atm, sorry ;_; ). He cannot lose Combat Casting or Combat Reflexes, both are required for entry into Sacred Fist (assuming that's what he really needs to be). What's the main purpose behind the levels of paladin? I would guess for the grace bonus to saves, but you're already worried about three stats (the very ones that power your saving throws to begin with, Dex, Con, and Wis). I second the motion to exchange at least most of those paladin levels for cleric levels. I have a question, too; is it possible to perform an unarmed strike while holding the charge for a touch spell, and have the spell cast the moment you deliver the attack? You're considered armed if you're charging a touch spell, unarmed strike or no, but if you can do both at the same time definitely consider feats that make this easier to do, especially if you go ahead and take cleric levels instead of paladin. Many of the cleric's "best" spells have a range of touch; perhaps this is why the class requires Combat Casting, I don't really know. Paladin will still definitely work (there's one or two that'd be a real doozy in this class), but the vast majority of his touch spells are beneficent and do not benefit from extra unarmed strike damage. Also, be VERY wary of effects which don't allow for saving throws (one of this guy's key strengths), and try to compensate for that through feat choices.
PhoenixInferno 11-06-06, 02:21 PM	Amazing that you managed to click a link, read a thread, and post without really looking at the title. Im well aware its a crappy build, but it seems fun. the CO boards are very good at de-crappyifying things. Gasp, you mean I could do a completely different concept as a way of making this concept work? Didnt think so.Gosh, a CLERIC is less holy than a PALADIN? Whatever shall the world come to? There's very little difference in the end since neither of you will be able to use weapons or heavy armor, but the Cleric gets an additional 8 levels of spellcasting. If you're married to the Paladin/Monk, then try to adapt the Argent Fist (Faiths of Eberron).
mkill 11-06-06, 02:35 PM	Gasp, you mean I could do a completely different concept as a way of making this concept work? Didnt think so. Well, you're getting snotty when people try to help ... I think the main point is: Why does your friend want to play a monk / paladin / sacred fist? Since we established that it is a crappy build and there is no way to make it better (especially within the LG* restrictions), he really has to ask himself: (* = Living Greyhawk, not Lawful Good :) ) - Do I just want to prove that I can survive and have fun with a less-optimal character build? - Then don't post here. - Do I want to play a reasonable character within the archetype? - Then drop either Paladin or drop Sacred Fist... if you drop Sacred Fist you can get some actually useful feats and just go straight Paladin 2 or 4 / Monk 12. I don't see any other reason to stick to the class combination other than roleplaying reasons, but then, roleplaying wise, a lawful good cleric can be played like a paladin, except that he won't talk to his horse so much. Paladin and Monk just don't mix well ... one relies on heavy armor and tanking with shield, the other on unarmed combat and high mobility. You can't use both classes' strength at once. And there is no build or feat to fix that.
Piuro 11-06-06, 02:51 PM	If you're married to the Paladin/Monk, then try to adapt the Argent Fist (Faiths of Eberron). Still Living Greyhawk, so no eberron stuff. Sorry for getting a bit snotty, I was just kind of getting tired of people not looking over LG restrictions and prestige class requirements. The main reaon is roleplaying, but for the sake of fun, it would be nice to have a character that didnt suck. If nobody can really think of a way its even remotely possible (Especially considering the MAD) then I guess I could trey and talk my friend into going the cleric route. Thanks for the time though, sorry for getting pissy.
Grim Sage 11-06-06, 02:52 PM	If you really want to stick with monk/paladin, at least snag the "Ascetic Knight" feat from Complete Adventurer (All "Complete" books are allowed in LG, aren't they?) That will at least go a small way toward easing the hurt you get from mixing 2 conceptually incompatible classes and suffering from severe MAD. Also, as PhoenixInferno mentioned, dump Str in favor of Con. Lower Wis by 1 (a paladin never needs more than 14 wis in any case, and in this case not dying is slightly preferable to having a +1 to AC and Stunning Fist DC), and Str by 2, and grab a Con 14. Dead men don't hit very hard. That said, if you really want to stick with the Monk/Paladin, go for it. That's part of the fun of optimizing. Meanwhile, this is the CO board, so don't flame people for trying to optimize your build when that is what you asked them to do.
Edea 11-06-06, 04:35 PM	In that case: maybe saving throws? Monk 2: +3/+3/+3 Pal 4: +4/+1/+1 Sac 10: +7/+7/+3 ===================== DG (+2): +2/+2/+2 Wis 18: +0/+0/+4 Dex 12: +0/+1/+0 ===================== +16/+14/+13 Also, with a major (+6) Cha boosting item and an item of resistance +5 (assuming you had access to these items, which is hopefully reasonable, but I don't know about your campaign), you'd get at level 16: +24/+22/+21 Not a lot of things are going to get past these, even at that high a level. A wizard with 30 Int casting an 8th level spell gets a DC 28 save. For Fort, you'd only have to roll a 4 or higher to resist. Being allowed even a single reroll of a save would be pretty darn nice in this situation, so find abilities that allow you to do this or something similar. Further augmenting your throws is probably a good idea; at least, that seems reasonable. Even small augments will have a very large effect on you since you're in the "sensitive" range of DCs for all of your throws at most of the given levels (Going from +5 to +8 isn't a big deal when the DC is 28, but going from +24 to +27 at that same DC most certainly is, even though going from +24 to +27 isn't a big deal when the DC is 15). If your campaign is highly item-deprived, it might be a wise idea to substitute a VoP for your basic magic item repertoire (Wis/Cha/Con/Dex). Make sure to take Intuitive Attack in this variant. You could ignore Wis in favor of Dex or Con, but if you have paladin levels neglecting Cha is probably a not-so-hot idea. Definitely rearrange the scores away from Str or Int.
hogarth 11-06-06, 04:48 PM	Here's some comments that solbergb has made about Living Greyhawk monks, along with a sample build (note that he dumped Int and Cha): http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=10459505&postcount=330 Some of the relevant parts: The usual "monk traps" are: Strength lower than 16 to begin with. You don't build any other fighter type like that, don't build a monk like that. They don't have sneak attack to provide damage. Dodge/mobility/spring attack - this has so much wrong with it I can't even talk about it without a whole page to rant. Suffice it to say that doing a single hit with a monk will doom you to ineffectualness. Elusive target is a bit better than spring attack, but three feats is too much to pay for what it gets. Combat expertise - this can be ok, but getting the intelligence to 13+ defeats most of the point of being a monk tactical fighter (imp trip without needing int 13) and adds so much MAD your strength or wis or both will suffer. Being too concerned about armor class. Accept that you'll have "roguelike" armor class most of your LG career. You can disengage from any situation if you have a single hitpoint, and if you have all of stun fist, trip and grapple at decent levels, a significant portion of the time you can move in and do something to the other guy that limits his ability to hit back. (sometimes it won't work, even if you pick the best ability you can, but it works enough that you don't need the same AC as the guy who routinely goes toe-to-toe and can't do anything about the other guy hitting back). Early cash should be spent on strength items and DR-penetrating weapons/potions, then saving throw/attribute boosters, then AC in that order. It doesn't really change as you level up, as long as you do invest SOMETHING in each category (move down the list when things no longer seem "cheap"). The best defensive AC feat for a monk is endurance, because it lets you take a level of tatooed monk and turn yourself into a troglodyte. (and get 3 nat attacks to add to your flurry). Keep that in mind before being tempted to waste feats on things like Dodge. Monks want to be enlarged, and in higher levels they also benefit a lot from polymorph. Monks who didn't choose enough starting strength pretty much need to be polymorphed to contribute in the 10-15 game.
Edea 11-06-06, 05:05 PM	I'd be getting the strength from size/ability buffs and/or magic items; buying Str 16 using point-28 is going to put a lot of MAD strain on a Sacred Fist.
Piuro 11-06-06, 05:49 PM	The saves thing is quite nice... No VoP in LG, sorry to burst your bubble. So, i've got a bunch of different suggestions for stats anyone care to summerize what they think the the best prioritization of stats would be?
Raphael_Maure 11-06-06, 06:40 PM	There's an exalted feat from BoED which is just like weapon finesse, except with WIS. Works only with simple weapons and unarmed strikes. Sadly, as an exalted feat it's a Supernatural ability (AMFs are bad for you). Can you use said feat in Living Greyhawk?
Piuro 11-06-06, 06:44 PM	Living Greyhawk Does Not Allow The Book Of Exalted Deeds.
Raphael_Maure 11-06-06, 06:49 PM	Also, why not go all the way and dump INT down to 8? As a human Monk/Sacred Fist you still get semi-decent skillpoints, and can still max out your Tumble, Concentration and maybe Diplomacy. It also occurs me that this build's only melee advantage over a standard Monk is the Fighter-ish BAB... What about going the TWFing route?
Edea 11-06-06, 06:49 PM	Yah, VoP was just in case you couldn't get the magic items. It sounds like you can, so not a problem. Your -base- Charisma need not be so high, but you should have a large array of methods to buff it. Eagle's Splendour (a Pal2 spell) basically adds +2 to all saves for one encounter (well, around 12 minutes or so), a cloak of charisma or similar device will raise them all for a longer period of time, etc. It's a similar idea for Strength. I will not deny its importance for this character in a combat situation, but buffs ought to allow you to operate fairly well should the need arise. This character's sacred flame is an inherent buff, for example. Don't totally dump this stat, but it does not hold the importance of Con or Wis. If you had more points, you could get this to a decent level. Intelligence is the dump stat. A skill monkey, this character is not. Wisdom is a trap...for a full monk. You're not a full monk. We must work with the fact that you're a sacred fist. Almost all of the sacred fist's class abilities revolve around Wisdom. That's over half of this character's career, and it also serves to support your Will saves while you multiclass into paladin, and it most certainly serves as a source of AC (particularly with another Pal2 spell, Owl's Wisdom). And it powers your divine spells; since Pal gets so few, you really need the Wis bonus to give you access to extra buffs, which might not be in your magic item inventory, and that's something Owl's Wisdom won't help you with. Have a good Wisdom. Dexterity and Constitution are quite important as base scores, especially Con if hp aren't altered by non-permanent increases in this campaign(I don't know if they are or not). They also complement your aptitude with saving throws. (Edited to remove bow/Snatch Arrow comment, forgot about SF's code of conduct :( ).
Raphael_Maure 11-06-06, 06:54 PM	I second Edea... except the ranged weapons part, as Sacred Fists can't use weapons (it's their crappy code).
ChristopherGroves 11-06-06, 06:58 PM	I second Edea... except the ranged weapons part, as Sacred Fists can't use weapons (it's their crappy code). And that includes the bola. Sacred Fist isn't HORRIBLE. Anyway, I'd advise against cleave myself. Extra Stunning Fists or Divine Might would be advisable (not sure what LG allows or not).
PhoenixInferno 11-06-06, 07:00 PM	I would also edit the title of your thread to include the phrase "Living Greyhawk" or the initials "LG" - it attracts the attention of the "specialists". 28 point buy is the reason I think you should go with Cleric/Monk instead of Paladin/Monk. Clerics can dump CHA - they lose turning & divine feat potential, but the world isn't over for them. Compare that to the Paladin's Divine Grace and Smite Evil AND turning/divine feat effectiveness? If your CHA isn't great, you're hurting a bit. Better to use Cleric and totally dump CHA.
Edea 11-06-06, 07:01 PM	Aiyaah, this is the "DMM on Dread Necromancer" debacle I went through all over again :embarrass Now I'm even more embarassed...
Piuro 11-06-06, 07:18 PM	I tried changing the thread name like 5 seconds after creating it, so... Sorry. :( Apparently I can't change the thread name... Okay, so it sounds like this build isnt completely dead, which is a good thing.
Raphael_Maure 11-07-06, 08:36 AM	Sacred Fist isn't HORRIBLE. Sacred Fists are great (I'm playing one myself)... if you want a 100% pure unarmed combatant, that is.