Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Endarire 11-14-05, 04:39 PM	I have been told by many that playing a wizard in the World's Largest Dungeon is foolish; however, I intend to undertake the challenge. Here is the build, assuming I can pull it off. I believe I will start at a minimum of ECL5, though I hope at least ECL6 so I can take ruathar; if not, I will rearrange my build. Allowed Source Material: Anything first party except Book of Exalted Deeds and Book of Vile Darkness, pending DM approval Party Composition: Unknown Key: Feat, [Flaw], (Trait), {Class Ability} Elarius Resendia: CG Male Gray Elf Wizard5/Ruathar1/Geometer2/Divine Oracle2/Loremaster3/Archmage4/Fatespinner3 Build Summary: This is a campaign setting-neutral arcanist who knows much and applies his knowledge to his life. With this stat arrangement, he knows 12 L1 spells at L1 and 5 spells per level thereafter. After attaining loremaster, his breadth of knowledge expands to include Knowledge (dungeoneering) and perhaps Knowledge (planes), though Knowledge (religion) may still be a viable choice to continue. 30 Point Buy: STR: 6 DEX: 16 CON: 12 INT: 20 WIS: 10 CHA: 8 Wizard1: Collegiate Wizard, Eschew Material Components, Improved Initiative OR Skill Focus (Knowledge (religion)), [Murky-Eyed, Noncombatant], (Aggressive, Slippery), {Scribe Scroll} Wiz2 Wiz3: Item Familiar OR Skill Focus (Knowledge (religion)) Wiz4: +1 INT Wiz5: {Extend Spell OR Craft Wondrous Item OR Craft Magic Arms & Armor} Ruathar1: Extend Spell OR Craft Wondrous Item OR Craft Magic Arms & Armor Geometer1: {Glyph of Warding, Spellglyph} Geo2: +1 INT, {Book of Geometry} Divine Oracle1: School Focus (transmutation), {Oracle Domain, Scry Bonus} DO2: {Prescient Sense} Loremaster1: {Secret: Skill Focus (Spellcraft) OR +2 Fort OR +2 Reflex} LM2: School Focus (evocation), +1 INT, {Lore} LM3: {Secret: Skill Focus (Spellcraft) OR +2 Fort OR +2 Reflex} Archmage1: {Arcane Reach OR Mastery of Elements OR Mastery of Shaping OR Spell Power} Archmage2: Craft Contingent Item OR Extraordinary Concentration OR Spell Penetration, {Arcane Reach OR Mastery of Elements OR Mastery of Shaping OR Spell Power} Archmage3: +1 INT, {Arcane Reach OR Mastery of Elements OR Mastery of Shaping OR Spell Power} Archmage4: {Arcane Reach OR Mastery of Elements OR Mastery of Shaping OR Spell Power} Fatespinner1: Craft Contingent Item OR Extraordinary Concentration OR OR (Improved) Spell Penetration, {Spin Fate} FS2: {Fickle Finger of Fate} FS3: +1 INT, {Spin Destiny} Personal Commentary: I will boost INT every 4 levels. Additionally, feats starting at level 15 can be anything; however, if I prefer the skill points, change fatespinner to more loremaster. Skill Notes I will raise Concentration, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (religion), and Spellcraft at every level until I no longer need them. I need only 10 ranks of Knowledge (religion), but will continue raising it if useful. Assuming we go by the rules as written, passing high enough Knowledge checks will allow me to peer into the Monster Manual and use the knowledge in character. Knowledge (nature), considering the setting, is probably a waste, though dungeoneering and perhaps planes are worth maxing. What say you? Geometer: The heavy skill requirements prevent me from having more knowledge ranks and Disable Device, though, because of the racial substitution level, Search will be class. Loremaster: I have additional skill points because of my 22 base INT and 2 more from being a Loremaster. Speak Language and various knowledges may be useful skills in which to invest. Fatespinner: I need 5 Profession (gambler) ranks, but have plenty of time once I enter Loremaster to obtain them. Spell Selection !denotes spells I intend to take for my first level, @denotes spells I intend to take for my second level, and #denotes spells I hope to acquire by other means. ? denotes spells which I would normally take, but may not function as written in the World's Largest Dungeon. Regardless, suggestions for replacements are appreciated. -=Level 1=- Charm Person Color Spray Comprehend Languages Expeditious Retreat Feather Fall Grease Identify Kaupper's Skittish Nerves (Magic of Faerun) Mage Armor Magic Missile Obscuring Mist Orb of Sound, Lesser (Complete Arcane) Ray of Enfeeblement Shield -=Level 2=- Bear's Endurance Blur Bull's Strength Cat's Grace Command Undead Dessicating Bubble (Savage Species) Detect Thoughts Eagle's Splendor False Life Fox's Cunning Glitterdust Invisibility Knock Mirror Image Owl's Wisdom Rope Trick ?: The supposed dimensional lock will likely prevent this from functioning. Scorching Ray Web -=Level 3=- @Deep Slumber !Dispel Magic @Displacement @Explosive Runes ("I prepared explosive runes this morning!") !Fireball !Greater Magic Weapon !Haste #Mobile Platform (Custom - see below) @Orb of Acid (Complete Arcane) @Protection from Energy @Tongues !Water Breathing -=Level 4=- @Animate Dead !Dimension Door ? !Enervation !Evard's Black Tentacles !Fire Shield !Improved Invisibility @Phantasmal Killer !Polymorph @Rainbow Pattern @Scrying @Stone Shape -=Level 5=- !Baleful Polymorph !Draconic Polymorph (Draconomicon) !Feeblemind !Passwall !Telepathic Bond !Teleport ? Equipment NOTE: Because of my unknown ECL, this list is quite tentative, though items marked with ! are considered critical. Suggestions are welcome. Worn !Ring of Sustenance (2500) !Headband of INT (4000) !Necklace of CON (4000) !Ioun Stone of continual cerulean flame (160) !Ceremonial Ring (?) - Item Familiar if I can manage it !Ring of prestidigitation at will (900) Cloak of Resistance: +1 resistance, +1 misc. (3000) Boots of continual expeditious retreat (2000) Carried As many spellbooks as I think I'll need (?) Rod of Metamagic: Lesser Extend (3000) Works Cited Grey Elf Wizard Racial Substitution Wizard Level: Races of the Wild 157 Traits: Unearthed Arcana 86 Flaws: Unearthed Arcana 91 Collegiate Wizard: Complete Arcane 181 Geometer: Complete Arcane 39 Ruathar: Races of the Wild 122 Divine Oracle: Complete Divine 35 Loremaster: Dungeon Master's Guide 191 Archmage: Dungeon Master's Guide 178 Fatespinner: Complete Arcane 37 Craft Contingent Item: Complete Arcane 77 with more info on 139 Extraordinary Concentration: Complete Adventurer 109 Mobile Platform Evocation [Force] Level: Sor/Wiz 3 Component: S Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Medium (100'+10'/level) Effect: One platform of varying dimensions comprised of force Duration: 24 hours (D) Saving Throw: No Spell Resistance: No Mobile platform functions similarly to Tenser's floating disk in that it creates a hovering platform of force that winks out if any part of it ever exceeds the spell's range, and that a caster may have only one application of the spell active simultaneously. Mobile platform, when cast, brings forth a 5 foot wide, 1 inch thick platform of translucent neon orange-colored force that hovers 3 feet horizontally off the ground. The caster may change its color once per round as a free action, or its size, position, or shape as a move action. The platform may be resized to be between one square inch and 10 square feet and one inch to one foot thick, though resizing the platform never damages its surroundings or it and can not exceed the available space. The platform may hover up to 10 feet off the ground, and need not be level with it, though changing its angle is a move action. For example, a wizard who used mobile platform to haul water from a lake to douse a nearby burning building could change the platform's angle from horizontal or level with the ground to vertical or perpendicular with the ground, thereby dumping the water. By default, if left undirected, the platform will hover along the ground horizontally, level with it, and maintain a constant distance of 5 feet between the caster and it; however, as a move action, the caster may change this default to any position within the spell's range. The platform, at the caster's discretion, may, as a move action, change chape. Most platforms are square or circular, though some are spiral, triangular, or of a sawblade's shape, though touching such shaping never causes damage. Additionally, all platform shapes must be two-dimensional objects: Attempting to reshape a platform into a bowl, pyramid, sphere, or similar platform will not work, though a move action is still used. The platform may be used to bull rush, trip, disarm, and sunder, though the platform never draws attacks of opportunity for doing so. Treat the platform as a natural attack from a creature of its size category with a strength and attack bonus of 0. The platform may be ordered to attack a creature or object, but never does damage. Platforms may neither be enchanted as weapons, armor, shields, wondrous items, or other items; additionally, spells that benefit weapons or armor, like magic weapon or magic vestment do not function on it. Regardless of the purpose of its use, the platform can lift up to 150 pounds per caster level and one gallon per 5 square feet of space the platform occupies. The platform moves at a speed of 30 feet with good maneuverability, and a caster may ride his platform without trouble. Because of the nature of the spell, mobile platform and tenser's floating disk may be active simultaneously, though the limitations of both spells remain. -EE
MechaboyDos 11-14-05, 05:03 PM	The problem is that even with Collegiate Wizard, the rules for granting a Wizard free spells at every level assume that the Wizard has access to research materials between adventures, which is not the case for WLD. And again, where do you get the ink to scribe with? Second, even though Geometers only need one page per spell for their spellbooks, it still costs 100 gp worth of special inks and scribing materials per page, and it takes 25 gp worth of special inks and scribing materials for a spellglyph, and you will not find any significant quantities of these materials in WLD. In fact, the only scribing materials we ever ran into were only enough for about three pages worth. Third, the scroll selection inside the dungeon is extremely limited. In fact, here's the list of every single arcane scroll we've found so far (we're 14th level): Stinking Cloud Gaseous Form Water Breathing Acid Fog Cone of Cold Wall of Force Magic Missile (7th level) Fireball (10th level) Melf's Acid Arrow (9th level) That's it, period. The only way for a Wizard to be viable in WLD is for the DM to be extremely lenient. If you're coming in at higher level then you might have half a chance, if you devote a substantial amount of your creation money to scribing materials and a portable library... But other than that, no luck. EDIT: Oh, and you can forget Dimension Door, and anything else that works via extradimensional effects. They're all useless in WLD.
AlienFromBeyond 11-14-05, 05:19 PM	Wait, if there's essentially a giant Dimensional Lock on the whole place, what's to stop a Cheater of Mystara from putting up an Anti-magic Field, and then using Initiate of Mystara to still be able to cast while ignoring the Lock? Other than no FR. I mean rules-wise.
MechaboyDos 11-14-05, 06:09 PM	Wait, if there's essentially a giant Dimensional Lock on the whole place, what's to stop a Cheater of Mystara from putting up an Anti-magic Field, and then using Initiate of Mystara to still be able to cast while ignoring the Lock? Other than no FR. I mean rules-wise. The DM saying "No, it doesn't work because the ________ built the dungeon so that it could never possibly be escaped from."
Endarire 11-14-05, 07:13 PM	My DM mentioned that outposts have a limit of 1500G and some scrolls at least are available. -EE
SoulGamit 11-14-05, 07:39 PM	Be a gnome shadowmage. You only need about 5 spells to make it work, and it gives you every evoction and most conjuration spells in the entire game. In fact, be an illusion specialist and choose evoction and conjuration as prohibited schools, since most useful conjuration spells you can't mimic will be useless in WLD anyways. All this requires is is the races of stone book.
Worguron 11-14-05, 07:49 PM	Well, one of the things suggested in the World's Largest Dungeon is to have the character pick all their spells in advance and have the spellbook be a family heirloom or something of that nature. Yes, this requires quite a bit of forward thinking, but this poster has already done this, and if he talked to his DM about it, they could work out a way to have more than the absolute minimum spells known.
Endarire 11-14-05, 08:21 PM	I was hoping for advice for which spells to nab since I will hopefully get 5 per level; 2 from leveling, 2 from Collegiate, and 1 from the elven wizard substitution level. Regarding wizard spells and levels:At each new wizard level, she gains two new spells of any spell level or levels that she can cast (based on her new wizard level) for her spellbook.-EE
Pull My Finger of Death 11-14-05, 08:47 PM	I was hoping for advice for which spells to nab since I will hopefully get 5 per level; 2 from leveling, 2 from Collegiate, and 1 from the elven wizard substitution level. Regarding wizard spells and levels:-EEThis should help: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=183763&page=1&pp=30
MechaboyDos 11-14-05, 11:48 PM	"At each new wizard level, she gains two new spells of any spell level or levels that she can cast (based on her new wizard level) for her spellbook." "Wizards perform a certain amount of research between adventures. Each time a character gains a new Wizard level, she gains two spells of her choice to add to her spellbook. These spells represent the results of her research. You don't have access to research materials in WLD. There aren't any arcane libraries anywhere. There aren't any tomes of spells that you can flip through and cherry pick what you want out of. And I'm not sure what your DM is talking about regarding scrolls; what I posted above are the only scrolls we've found in the entire dungeon thus far. The outposts might have one or two other things, but I highly doubt you'll find even 1 spell in 10 on your list. Also, keep in mind that gold is essentially worthless in the dungeon since nobody can get out, so if you want to get a scroll from somebody you're going to have to barter for it. I can see the family heirloom spellbook working. But that's about the only way a Wizard is really viable. Collegiate Wizard and the Elf substitution level are useless because they still do not get around the fundamental problems of WLD; no access to research materials and no access to scribing materials.
jstorrie 11-15-05, 01:47 AM	Good luck qualifying for Ruathar. You are in a dungeon.
fnord 11-15-05, 01:57 AM	MechaboyDos, according to both the RAW and every question that the Sage and/or the FAQ has answered, the ONLY THING a wizards needs to do for the 2 spells/level is own a spell book. They don't need access to arcane libraries; they don't need access to research materials other than their own minds. You raise good points about the availablity of scrolls, and about the sanity of allowing Collegiate Wizard, but the 2 spells/level are always available. Don't think to hard about the specifics; D&D in general and WLD in particular don't really lend themselves to critical analysis.
Endarire 11-15-05, 02:09 AM	I intend to start at ECL6 at least, but if I can't, my build will change. -EE
MechaboyDos 11-15-05, 02:19 AM	Well, I've got three versions of the FAQ and two versions of the PHB errata and I don't see that addressed anywhere. And that's how my DM has been running things. I assume that it's addressed somewhere in the WLD book, but I'll admit I haven't looked at that. Check with your DM I suppose. Although it doesn't make sense to me that you'd be able to research new spells when you're stuck in a dungeon with no access to research materials. And you still have the issue of scribing materials. The Collegiate Wizard/Elf Substitution Level addresses that somewhat, but it still seems pretty silly that five spells per level just magically appear in your spellbook with no ink or other scribing materials available.
Blade2718 11-15-05, 04:06 AM	I wouldn't recommend starting with those stats immediately. I would go with a base 16 in Int because a base 18 is way too point-intensive to keep up in a meaningful way. With Str 6, opening your spellbook is a burden. And more Con never hurt anyone. .Except the enemies of the Con-casting shugenja.
Raymondcaleatry 11-15-05, 04:15 AM	There are enemy wizards within the worlds largest dungeon, so i just give them a slightly larger spell book than the book says, randomly picking spells of an appropriate level from the DMG... One thing i would say is to definatly have sombody in your party (preferably two people) have item crafting feats. This is because of the distinct lack of stuff that is around in the dungeon. I personally allow my party to create items without cost for double XP. Ray
Rabit 11-15-05, 05:03 AM	sounds good!
MechaboyDos 11-15-05, 01:11 PM	Where exactly do you find the supplies to craft stuff with? Or even a good forge or lab to work with? We've been through about half the dungeon and haven't found anything like that at all so far.
Raymondcaleatry 11-15-05, 01:25 PM	There are actually several large forges in regions A and B, that i know of. But you have to remember that you don't have to kill everything in the dungeon. My party spent 70 days crafting stuff with some of the goblins in area B. Also, for my game i have stated that they do not have to pay any money for crafting, but if they take this option it costs them double XP. This is because money is pretty much useless to the PCs for the first several areas as there is nowhere to spend it. The double XP rule is to show that it is more difficult to craft magic items into inferior components. (The wizard in my game is useing a whole tonne of shaped bones and other random crap to make fetishes for himself). One thing to remember about the Worlds largest dungeon is that its more about survival than crushing all before you. Generally if the first time you come across somthing "bad ass" only one member of the party has whats needed to kill it. This premotes interesting tactics which i always aprove of. Ray
Mistwell 11-15-05, 01:30 PM	Well, one of the things suggested in the World's Largest Dungeon is to have the character pick all their spells in advance and have the spellbook be a family heirloom or something of that nature. Yes, this requires quite a bit of forward thinking, but this poster has already done this, and if he talked to his DM about it, they could work out a way to have more than the absolute minimum spells known. I agree. Pluse, Minor and Major Creation are spells that you can duplicate for free, which means you can conjure expensive componants and such. Also, if you go this route, you can choose Illusion Mastery from Unearthed Arcana, which will allow you to automatically know illusion spells at every level, and qualifies you to take Signature Spell without needing the pre-requisite (very useful for one of your figment spells to spontaneously-convert it into an evocation or conjuation).
jameswilliamogle 11-15-05, 01:33 PM	...the ONLY THING a wizards needs to do for the 2 spells/level is own a spell book. They don't need access to arcane libraries; they don't need access to research materials other than their own minds...Just out of curiousity (and I need to know as it recently happened to a character I made), does a Wizard who dies in a particularly hard encounter, then gets raised, and gains a level b/c of the increased XP when he rests again suddenly gain another 2 spells? I could see one argue that the 2 spells written down in the book were part of the benefit from leveling up, but by the same token when the spellcaster is dead it is no longer his book, but the party's, so when he levels (assuming the party gives the book to him) he would in fact gain 2 new spells, but might have to make a decipher script check for every spell in the book (this seems closer RAW to me). Also, if only "time" were needed, the Wizard could simply delay the leveling for a week or so. Likewise, I could see an argument that the free spells that are gained every level are from studying continuously, and not necessarily a benefit like hit points and such, and thus wouldn't get more spells. This doesn't seem RAW to me, and I'm less inclined to follow it since you already killed the poor Wizard: you might as well give him a little boost. My 5th level character was killed in the Underdark; I later was Raised, and went and added 3 new spells (Wiz Sub level). I didn't tell my DM. I don't want to cheat if this is illegal.
Wilds 11-15-05, 01:37 PM	I wouldnt call that cheating but I dont think its legal either. Because you get the 2 spells each level. So if you get the 2 spells when u turn level 5 and then die. Are raised and gain a level from XP you are back to level 5. And since you have already gotten the spells for 5th level. I dont think that works Otherwise u just found a really funny/good thing
Endarire 11-15-05, 08:07 PM	I envisioned wizards getting new spells as more of a "Eureka!" from experimenting with their current spells and postulating spellcraft and arcane theory. Libraries and tomes help, though it's more a matter of learning by doing. -EE
jameswilliamogle 11-15-05, 10:37 PM	I wouldnt call that cheating but I dont think its legal either. Because you get the 2 spells each level. So if you get the 2 spells when u turn level 5 and then die. Are raised and gain a level from XP you are back to level 5. And since you have already gotten the spells for 5th level. I dont think that works Otherwise u just found a really funny/good thingWell, we calculated the XP from the encounters for that session thus far (about halfway through the session) and determined that the XP would be enough to increase me back to 5th level, and although I rerolled HP's, I just kept the same sheet. Technically, I should've been 4th level for the rest of the session (and/or until resting), since we usually delve out the XP after the session, but it just was more convenient to keep the same char sheet, so I just didn't cast the 3rd level spells for the rest of the session. I technically was 4th level for a day or two.
Anguirus23 11-15-05, 11:50 PM	I tried this. We didn't get that far, but the DM was very nice...for instance, instead of needing ink he just let me "sacrifice the gold to Boccob" in order to scribe things. Worked fine for game balance, it was just a bit weird. Especially since I was a Gish, so I wasn't using a whole ton of spells. If I did the WLD again as a caster, I'd definately go Sorcerer. It's just not Wizard-friendly...hard to optimize a Druid in there, too...
SoulGamit 11-16-05, 12:39 AM	Here's a random thought... make your own darn ink. Use craft (alchemy) or craft (the ink used to scribe in a wizard's spellbook) or whatever craft skill your DM says is needed, harvest the proper materials in the WLD itself. Blood can be used as ink, for instence. If it has to be magical ink, then use the blood of creatures that can cast supernatural or spell-like abilities. Admittedly, no were in the DMG or anywere else does it give a proper mechanic for this, but the entire princible behind the ink used in a wizard's spellbook is so ambiguous it might just work. Ask your DM if that'll be acceptible. Also, no were in the SRD, PHB, or anywere else that I know of state that a wizard needs any material other then a spellbook to scibe new scrolls. Admittedly, this could be different for WLD. If all else fails, just be a shadowcraft mage. Of course, that's assuming shadow spells work in WLD. Two PrCs that might be of intrest: Blood Magus The materials you actually have to use to scribe scrolls and brew potions are never actually defined. Geometer Nifty, although limited rogue trapfinding-like ability (always welcome). Lowered cost of making a spellbook, and two free spells.
Illithid13 11-16-05, 11:33 AM	IMO Wizard +WLD= not really useful. If you want to make a caster type, I'd go with a sorcerer. If you just want the magic feal, go with warlock. Warlock is pirticularly good in that he helps overcome that magic item dependancy issue with WLD. just my :twocents:
MechaboyDos 11-16-05, 12:39 PM	The problem with making your own ink is that you have to find an (intact) alchemy lab in order to properly mix and magic the ingredients. Sure, you can use blood, but it dries out relatively quickly and then you can't do anything with it. So unless you've got a slaughterhouse next to your writing desk, carrying around vials of blood isn't going to do you much good.
El_Machinae 11-16-05, 01:38 PM	El_Machinae pops into a WLD thread to shout out ... Ancestral Relic! You just need a cleric in the group willing to consecrate for a day or two every once in awhile. It turns all those useless quivers, shields, and adamantine daggers into a new and improved spell book.
AviLazar 11-16-05, 01:40 PM	Unless the DM tells you that he will provide you with time/resources to craft items, don't even bother with crafting feats. Even then, the DM will have tight control, so you might as well leave it to him to give oyu magic items when he wnats to. As for scribing and supplies. You can 1) buy a bunch of inks, scrolls, etc in advance. OR if you are starting at level 1 start taking ranks in herbology and alchemy and make your own inks. I guess you could also take profession paper maker or something, and make paper from leaves or what-not. An open DM will work with you without having to make any major house rules.