| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| 42up07-19-04, 03:26 PM | My Dm is allowing me to play a venerable character. Starting at lvl 1 though...so it is going to be tough to say the least until I get wild shape. I am thinking of just doing monk1/druid19, but am undecided. The improved grapple and wis to AC is very tempting, as well as being able to flurry with my weapon of choice-the quarterstaff. I might also add in nature's warrior as well, but I hate the idea of giving up caster lvls. My other reasoning for monk is that with my starting intel of 15, I can get 7 starting stats maxed as a human. So I can get hide/move silently/jump/balance/tumble, etc at 4 skill ranks which will be handy in later lvls when I would have to have spent 2 skill ranks in them. |
| 42up07-19-04, 03:51 PM | My ultimate vission of this character is the kindly, feeble old man who wildshapes into a dire ape and goes smashing heads in. My choice of the quarterstaff is obvious, a few potent druid spells are focused on it and it can be flurried. I also need help on feats...besides the one feat that lets me cast while wild shape and a few meta magics and craft wondrous...I am lost. |
| Snow Savant07-19-04, 04:15 PM | A Level 1 *Venerable* Druid needs to stay the hell away from anything resembling melee combat ... and need to be a dedicated back-row magic slinger. The Venerable status totally rocks for non-organic Druids ... but for level-1 starters, your hit to CON/DEX/STR makes survival and prowess challenging indeed. Or ... you will die. The Monk AC benefit won't help you here as your AC will be better, but your BAB will blow chunks and your Flurry will blow even further. Things will change dramatically for you upon gaining 6th level, where you can be a bipedal Baboon for 12 hours per day with some decent physical stats to accompany your quarterstaff desires. What's your party role going to be like? Are you going to be the tank or divine spellcaster dude? Your Druid can be structured a number of different ways, but its best to synergize it with your party's composite. XO, Snow :cloud9: |
| 42up07-19-04, 04:23 PM | ahh...just looked at the new eberron adventure we are starting at lvl 2 it would seem then. As for my party, I really dont know. I am assumming we are going to have a rogue-ish character, mage, arcane caster and me being the divine caster. I am also tempted to take spontaneous casting-cure x |
| Skulan07-19-04, 04:38 PM | Don't even glance at Improved Grapple. You're looking at a -6 to strength overall, so grappling is an excellent way to commit suicide. If you even use the monk level, stick with Stunning Fist to at least put your wisdom to work for you. In general, though, to Snow Savant you listen. The sooner you get to Wild Shape into something that doesn't have massive physical penalties, the better. You also might want to check out some of the feats in Complete Warrior, as I think a few of them are wisdom-based. -Skulan |
| 42up07-19-04, 04:41 PM | yes...but the thing was I didnt plan to start grappling till I was wild shaped. |
| Snow Savant07-19-04, 04:42 PM | I am also tempted to take spontaneous casting-cure x An absolutely craptacular feat if there ever was one. Especially since you can easily use the most cost-effective and best bang-for-the-buck magic device on the market - a Wand of CLW. Especially since at low levels many DM's will allow you to buy them with partial charges. Use that feat slot for something you'll actually use and value - especially as you scale upwards. A Druid with the versatility to spontaneously cast SNA is awesome (especially when Unicorns can be summoned to heal all of you right and left). |
| Isthramir07-19-04, 04:49 PM | Originally posted by Snow Savant Especially since you can easily use the most cost-effective and best bang-for-the-buck magic device on the market - a Wand of CLW. Ok ... This is totally off topic, but what's so great about a wand of CLW. After about level 3 it starts to suffer greatly as a in-combat healing tool, and a wand of lesser vigor, although a little slower, will get you much more healing for the same cost. |
| necrosnoop11007-19-04, 04:49 PM | Others (Snow) have suggested this for Druid builds before but in your case the tiny, ugly, little, wrinkly skinned, yoda-like critter with a foul disposition known as a Jermlaine [Monster Manual II] race is the only race you could want. Not only does it fit your character theme to a tee it grants a +6 WIS bonus add that with the Venerable adjustments and you’d have a WIS through the roof. |
| 42up07-19-04, 04:59 PM | what is the LA for it? |
| Snow Savant07-19-04, 05:20 PM | Originally posted by Isthramir Ok ... This is totally off topic, but what's so great about a wand of CLW. After about level 3 it starts to suffer greatly as a in-combat healing tool, and a wand of lesser vigor, although a little slower, will get you much more healing for the same cost. Isthramir, we've used Wands of LV. And they suck in certain circumstances. Wands of CLW are more utilitarian. And you never EVER want to structure or position your party to rely on in-combat healing on a consistent basis. Cleric mechanics should be structured on them being combat powerhouses ... and yes, even at lower levels. 3.0/3.5 D&D has a huge discrepancy between output of cure spells and that of damage production by equal level comparisoned enemies. Look at 1st level what a Power-Attacking Orc can do with a Greataxe compared to your measly CLW or Lesser Vigor spells. Partys need to be structured around killing with maximum authority. Clerics in the back row playing Mr. Fixit with in-combat CLW's are destined for the TPK pile ... assuming your DM's are min/maxers and savvy tacticians like mine. XO, Snow :cloud9: |
| necrosnoop11007-19-04, 05:55 PM | what is the LA for it [Jermlaine]? 1 HD which is transmogrified into class level 1 And LA +0 |
| RaKhan07-19-04, 06:06 PM | Originally posted by Snow Savant The Monk AC benefit won't help you here as your AC will be better, but your BAB will blow chunks and your Flurry will blow even further. Things will change dramatically for you upon gaining 6th level, where you can be a bipedal Baboon for 12 hours per day with some decent physical stats to accompany your quarterstaff desires. Being behind just 1 point of BAB isn't the end of the world; therefore, it does not blow chunks. One could wait until 21st level to take 1 level in Monk so that they don't lose that "precious" 1 point of BAB. Being behind 1 level in spellcasting and Wild Shape isn't the end of the world either. If you've waited 9 long levels to get Venom Immunity, what's the difference in waiting 1 more when you can reap an additional benefit from it? People have already told anecdotes of them surviving encounters in lower and mid levels just because of the Wis modifier being added to both touch and flat-footed AC let alone just his straight AC. You'd also gain a +2 bonus to your Reflex save that you would otherwise not have if you haven't taken that 1 monk level. It's important to be able to make your opponent miss when he slings some save-or-die ray spells in your general direction. Although I must admit your extreme hyperbole of the cons of taking 1 level of monk is almost amusing like that of a hysterical drama queen. :P What's your party role going to be like? Are you going to be the tank or divine spellcaster dude? Your Druid can be structured a number of different ways, but its best to synergize it with your party's composite. A druid can be all of these at the same time. He can let loose at the start of combat with SNA to add some minor tanks to the battle. Next, he can then wild shape into a more combative animal form and then engage in melee combat while his furry little summoned friends come up to bite your enemies in their arse. While combat is going on, the druid with a spontaneous casting of heals with the purchase of that feat plus Natural Spell can heal the tanks in combat much easier than the cleric since the druid will most likely have a much larger Str score from his Wild Shape, thus he'd be able to land the touch attacks to heal his friends in the middle of the fight. The cleric and worry about healing the party up to full strength after the fight while the cleric focuses on tanking or casting buffing spells that might require some constant concentration. Having versatility in a party member is not a bad thing just in case the cleric or arcane spellcaster goes down. |
| Kintara07-19-04, 06:10 PM | Although it would make you ridiculously feeble (and kobolds are far from optimized), a venerable kobold just sounds like fun. Anyway, there's a variant druid that gives you Wis to AC, favored enemies, monk speed, and a bunch of other stuff in Unearthed Arcana. You do have to give up Wildshape, though. It's on page 58. |
| balefire4207-19-04, 06:48 PM | As far as the monk level goes, it isn't neccessary as your armor resizes to fit you as long as you are wildshaping into a form that can wear it (baboon, dire ape, legendery ape). As a venerable jermaline, you might consider it since your wisdom will be absolutely rediculous, but even then, I wouldn't want to delay druid my progression even by one level. Also, Originally posted by Snow Savant Things will change dramatically for you upon gaining 6th level, where you can be a bipedal Baboon for 12 hours per day with some decent physical stats to accompany your quarterstaff desires. I don't know much about baboons so I could be wrong, but aren't they quadrapedal? They can probably stand on their hind legs, but I don't think they would be able to fight on there hind legs very well if they normally walk on all four. |
| Snow Savant07-19-04, 06:54 PM | Being behind just 1 point of BAB isn't the end of the world; therefore, it does not blow chunks. But its not optimal, RaKhan - in fact, it's sub-optimal. Feel free to search the archives of the CO and Classes Forum to find someone whining about how their Druid has abysmally horrible AC. I'm all ears to hear about these horror stories. It makes no sense to make a 1 level dip into a non-spellcaster progression and non-wildshape progression class in order to pick up WIS Mod.-to-AC for a class archetype that is not hurting in the AC category. Or the save category for that matter. People have already told anecdotes of them surviving encounters in lower and mid levels just because of the Wis modifier being added to both touch and flat-footed AC let alone just his straight AC. Please list these anecdotes ... or provide links. You'd also gain a +2 bonus to your Reflex save that you would otherwise not have if you haven't taken that 1 monk level. REFL saves are almost always against attacks that cause damage, unlike WILL or FORT saves which often cause "game-over" issues for your character. Druids and Clerics rarely ever have to maximize their REFL save due to their prodigious access to damage-healing spells and magic items. Being behind 1 level in spellcasting and Wild Shape isn't the end of the world either.Depends on if you want to play an optimized Druid in a challenging optimized gaming environment - then it becomes the definitive smart choice. Note, that a 1 level dip delays all these critical top-tier performance acquisitions for a Druid: 1 Spellcaster Level that affects the following performance categories of your existing spells: Range, Duration, Targets Affected, & Opposed Spellcaster Checks. 1 Spellcaster Level that delays access to acquiring more of your existing spell levels slots ... and new ones to keep in synch with other similar-progressioned primary spellcasters at your level (read: progression of Wiz and Clerics). Countless times I've seen spellcasters lose combats where if they had access to a 6th level spell instead of a 5th level spell (and the extra 1st & 3rd level slot inherent in that level difference as well) the outcome of the conflict would have been significantly different. Delays access to A Thousand Faces ... which can if played right, totally change the scope of the game due to Alter Self/Wildshape stacking rules and the wide versatility of effective Alter Self forms available in the various monster books. Delays access to higher Wildshape Forms and Quantities ... which again, are power mechanics that scale as you move forward in levels at a more efficient quotient than that of WIS boosting. The versatility and combat efficiency of Wildshape forms totally trump AC bonuses. The Wildshape advantages of 12th, 15th, and 16th levels are also highly significant and each in and of themselves can trump the AC benefits of Monk WIS AC. 1 Point of BAB ... which may not seem like much to people, but for a martial oriented Druid, it *is* important. That's the beauty and uniqueness of the core class Druid. It's class abilities are all totally magnificent and a significant portion of them are also scaleable all the way through Epic levels. And worth getting ASAP. Besides, the DMG's Dragonhide Armor option for Druids and the Wilding armor enhancement make for a great combination with Druids ... who can then gain other strong armor enchantments to accompany the wilding. Still, I'm rather interested in hearing about the people who are having AC problems with their Druids. I mean ... everybody wishes they had a higher AC. But only certain character classes and character archetypes actually have valid mechanical problems with maintaining a respectable AC. Although I must admit your extreme hyperbole of the cons of taking 1 level of monk is almost amusing like that of a hysterical drama queen. What's your angle here? |
| Ranthanas07-19-04, 07:27 PM | Besides, the only benefit the monk level gives you is something you can duplicate with a single magic item (monk's belt). One level of a character is worth a lot more than a single 13KGP magic item. (Oh, and being a simple rope belt, the monk's belt can be tied with a slipknot to accomodate your new shape whenever you wildshape). Oh, Snow, does Thousand Faces stack with wildshape? Thousand Faces specifically works only while in your normal form and if you alter self before you wildshape, all your changes are trumped by the wildshaping. |
| PhoenixInferno07-19-04, 07:46 PM | Originally posted by Ranthanas Oh, Snow, does Thousand Faces stack with wildshape? Thousand Faces specifically works only while in your normal form and if you alter self before you wildshape, all your changes are trumped by the wildshaping. Yeah, about that... I think it was posted in a web-article All About Polymorph that they different transformations provide stacking type changes. I'm not exactly what the mechanic is for that to break stuff, but I've been reading that it breaks stuff big-time. |
| RaKhan07-19-04, 08:01 PM | Originally posted by Ranthanas Besides, the only benefit the monk level gives you is something you can duplicate with a single magic item (monk's belt). One level of a character is worth a lot more than a single 13KGP magic item. (Oh, and being a simple rope belt, the monk's belt can be tied with a slipknot to accomodate your new shape whenever you wildshape). As far as I know regarding the rules of Wild Shape, the magic items will be melded into the animal form and magical effects suspended while in that form if such an animal would not normally be able to wear such an item normally. A DM could reasonably rule that a bird, snake, or possibly even a big cat would not wear a belt, and thus the druid wouldn't get the benefit of the Monk's Belt. A DM might be generous in some questionable forms, but you'd be guaranteed to take advantage of a monk's AC Wis bonus in antimagic fields, survives Mord's Disjunction, and won't ever be stolen from you in the middle of the night by a canny and crafty rogue. Innate extraordinary abilities almost always trump magical abilities that perform the same function. Armor will still cause you penalties to various checks which can mean the difference between success or failure, or even being weighted down so much that you end up sinking instead of floating (in which case Swim won't help you much at all). |
| RaKhan07-19-04, 08:51 PM | Originally posted by Snow Savant But its not optimal, RaKhan - in fact, it's sub-optimal. Feel free to search the archives of the CO and Classes Forum to find someone whining about how their Druid has abysmally horrible AC. I'm all ears to hear about these horror stories. It makes no sense to make a 1 level dip into a non-spellcaster progression and non-wildshape progression class in order to pick up WIS Mod.-to-AC for a class archetype that is not hurting in the AC category. Or the save category for that matter. Please list these anecdotes ... or provide links. REFL saves are almost always against attacks that cause damage, unlike WILL or FORT saves which often cause "game-over" issues for your character. Druids and Clerics rarely ever have to maximize their REFL save due to their prodigious access to damage-healing spells and magic items. I wish I could provide the link of someone specifically mentioning how his arse was saved by having his Wis mod to AC when he played a Monk 1 / Druid X (it was something low to mid level). It may have been in the PHB Classes forum, but I can't remember exactly. I checked here in the Optimization forum, but couldn't find it after searching the past 5 pages of the latest posts. Depends on if you want to play an optimized Druid in a challenging optimized gaming environment - then it becomes the definitive smart choice. I always play in challenging campaigns. My campaigns tend to be powergaming ones where I always min/max my characters. losing a +1 on BAB so long as it doesn't make you lose an addition attack is like the difference of giving up Str +2 on half-orcs to go for Con +2 on dwarves (yes, the latter is better). Note, that a 1 level dip delays all these critical top-tier performance acquisitions for a Druid: 1 Spellcaster Level that affects the following performance categories of your existing spells: Range, Duration, Targets Affected, & Opposed Spellcaster Checks. Missing out on 1 spellcasting level usually does not mean the difference between life and death. Spell Penetration feats can take care of that, which you'll most likely take as you get into higher levels anyway where it becomes more important. 1 Spellcaster Level that delays access to acquiring more of your existing spell levels slots ... and new ones to keep in synch with other similar-progressioned primary spellcasters at your level (read: progression of Wiz and Clerics). Countless times I've seen spellcasters lose combats where if they had access to a 6th level spell instead of a 5th level spell (and the extra 1st & 3rd level slot inherent in that level difference as well) the outcome of the conflict would have been significantly different. Likewise, there has been people who've played Monk 1 / Druid X characters that have been saved by their additional bonus to AC from their Wis modifier. Delays access to A Thousand Faces ... which can if played right, totally change the scope of the game due to Alter Self/Wildshape stacking rules and the wide versatility of effective Alter Self forms available in the various monster books. Yes, it could change the scope of the game; but if you've made it to 13th level without the Thousand Faces ability, you can wait 1 more level. If the DM engineered the campaign total success to rely solely on the druid taking all druid levels and getting Thousand Faces by 13th character level, then you need a new DM, period. Delays access to higher Wildshape Forms and Quantities ... which again, are power mechanics that scale as you move forward in levels at a more efficient quotient than that of WIS boosting. The versatility and combat efficiency of Wildshape forms totally trump AC bonuses. The Wildshape advantages of 12th, 15th, and 16th levels are also highly significant and each in and of themselves can trump the AC benefits of Monk WIS AC. There's multiple ways of bringing down a monster. If the DM is intent on railroading you and punishing you for taking a 1 level dip into Monk, then you need a new DM. Otherwise, play smart and use what you've got. Being 1 level behind in any single class should never make the difference between life and death on any consistent basis (maybe in some rare occasions, but that's it). If you've made it to 8th level without Large Wild Shape, then you can wait 1 more level unless you're just being impatient (which there's not anything wrong with that :P ). 1 Point of BAB ... which may not seem like much to people, but for a martial oriented Druid, it *is* important. When a druid can wild shape into animals of great Str, missing out on 1 point of BAB is not the end of the damned world. Again, a person can always take the monk level once he achieves 21st level if you really don't want to miss out on the 1 point of BAB because at epic levels it won't matter anymore. That's the beauty and uniqueness of the core class Druid. It's class abilities are all totally magnificent and a significant portion of them are also scaleable all the way through Epic levels. And worth getting ASAP. That's why I only recommend taking 1 level in the monk class. Why is that? It's because a one level dip can be acceptable, just as most people would not want to play a race that has more than a +1 LA; yet people do recommend playing a +1 LA race if there's some decent benefits for creating a character as such a race. Besides, the DMG's Dragonhide Armor option for Druids and the Wilding armor enhancement make for a great combination with Druids ... who can then gain other strong armor enchantments to accompany the wilding. Yeah, you could wear the armor, but good luck swimming in it when it weighs you down to where you sink to the bottom of the river and drown unless you're going to waste a Wild Shape use on just turning into a fish just to swim across a river that needn't be necessary when you can swim across proficiently with no armor and without wasting a Wild Shape use for the day. Still, I'm rather interested in hearing about the people who are having AC problems with their Druids. I mean ... everybody wishes they had a higher AC. But only certain character classes and character archetypes actually have valid mechanical problems with maintaining a respectable AC. You're right. I'm one of those people who always wish they had a higher AC because I would rather dodge a spell or an attack rather than be forced to accept the damage or forced to save versus spell. My concern is when you start getting into epic levels where epic level monsters have insane attack bonuses for even their CR and tends to have very detrimental effects if you're even hit with one of their attacks, it then becomes increasingly paramount to avoid getting hit entirely (or at least make an effort to make it significantly more difficult for the enemy to hit you) because it can mean life or death at that point. What's your angle here? What's my angle? I'm saying that losing a single spellcasting level to getting an innate ability to dodge touch attacks even when flat-footed by an increase to your AC via your Wis modifier (which should be sky high in epic levels) scales well and is worth 1 less spellcasting level just to obtain that instead of relying on a belt that may not even be allowed by the DM to take effect in a particular form you take with Wild Shape (elementals would come to mind) let alone could be better put to use with another magical item in that slot. At epic levels, I would definitely outright abuse my sorceror's ability to cast Mordenkainen's Disjunction on anyone with powerful magical items as often as I could. You know what? Your DM should too since you say he's such the "tactical genius" that you purport your DM to be. Maybe it's my affinity for having extraordinary abilities over magical ones that lend me to play a monk more often than not in D&D, but I realize with such powerful magic that could be cast by a cleric (with Magic domain), sorceror (no sorceror in their right mind would neglect to know this spell), and wizard that I need to be prepared for such events as such items being disjoined permanently by that spell. Having an "extraordinary" ability that will continue to function in spite of such attempts to disjoin and even in antimagic fields can make the difference between life and death. Consider your druid in an antimagic field. You won't be able to cast spells let alone use your Wild Shapes since they're done via spell-like abilities. Any DM worth his weight in gold that has an intelligent NPC that wants to make the druid ineffective in combat would make sure to get him into an antimagic zone, force the druid and his party to come to his home field to gain the advantage. Of course, such an antimagic field would not only render the druid ineffective, but all the other spellcasters too (except that the cleric with the right physical stats could melee moderately safely). Likewise, skills with epic-level results can duplicate the abilities of certain spells or can make certain spells used against them utterly useless. Guess what? These skills can never be disjoined, dispelled, nor surpressed by an antimagic field. They will continue to operate in spite of magic. Yes, delaying your druid levels by 1 level is a sacrifice, but it's one that gets less painful (if painful at all) with each druid level gained. You're blowing it out of proportion that it's the end of the world when in fact it's not. |
| Snow Savant07-19-04, 10:15 PM | RaKhan, no one is attacking you. Although I will systematically address each one of your assertions in the counter-quotes below. And since you seem interested and critical of my two DM's, I will give you some background on them. Both my gaming groups are well-established 20+ year gaming groups located in NYC, USA. I myself am the youngster in each of them, although my fellow comrades are all 3.5 rules gurus and creative min/maxers to boot. Both DM's are the alpha-males of these gamers ... and encourage such behaviour because they themselves are world-class optimizers and tacticians to boot. We've learned the hard way that enemy primary spellcasters of equivalent or higher CR levels will be armed with full spellcaster progression (unlike a lot of WotC & D20 modules where wacky BBEG builds like Sorceror9/Monk3 actualy claim to be powerful adversaries) will *KILL* you. Fast and easy ... because high level spells do such things and are harder to resist. And the highly min/maxed primary spellcasters we face are there to deal with the PC's in the most savagely efficient way possible. So yeah, we get MDJ's thrown at us as well as save-or-die's on a consistent basis. And we all find its balanced and challenging without being a TPK-delirium situation. Missing out on 1 spellcasting level usually does not mean the difference between life and death. Spell Penetration feats can take care of that, which you'll most likely take as you get into higher levels anyway where it becomes more important. In average play, perhaps. Not against min/maxed opposition with equal or higher spellcaster levels who also use Spell Penetration, Beads of Karma, Ankhs of Ascension, Spell Power +X mechanics, etc. to maximize their offensive output. Likewise, there has been people who've played Monk 1 / Druid X characters that have been saved by their additional bonus to AC from their Wis modifier. Of course. But I can also personally attest to seeing primary spellcasters fail and/or die by being in combat situations where with an extra spellcaster level, they could have turned the tide of the battle. And we are talking about anywhere from 1 to 3 mechanical aspects of that additional spellcaster level that could have made a difference between win and lose. Yes, it could change the scope of the game; but if you've made it to 13th level without the Thousand Faces ability, you can wait 1 more level. If the DM engineered the campaign total success to rely solely on the druid taking all druid levels and getting Thousand Faces by 13th character level, then you need a new DM, period. But why? For an variable AC bonus of around +10 to a character that already kicks arse in the AC category? You could be starting the ATF/Wildshape combinatorial madness a level earlier in addition to having all the other class goodies that come from the Druid single-classing. Delaying by 1 level can indeed be extremely deadly. And assuming that you'll get the neato class abilities "at next level" is inserting a guaranteed assumption of survival-&-success into a game where there should be none. There's multiple ways of bringing down a monster. If the DM is intent on railroading you and punishing you for taking a 1 level dip into Monk, then you need a new DM. Otherwise, play smart and use what you've got. Being 1 level behind in any single class should never make the difference between life and death on any consistent basis (maybe in some rare occasions, but that's it). If you've made it to 8th level without Large Wild Shape, then you can wait 1 more level unless you're just being impatient (which there's not anything wrong with that ). I've never seen a DM pull off shenanigans like that. And I fundamentally disagree with you on that 1 level difference "being life and death". In highly optimized play, there is no guarantee of survival after your next combat. There is no guarantee of your Iconic-4 party using 25% of your party resources to defeat the next encounter. In highly optimized play, ideosynchratic flaws in build structure and combinatorial party dynamics will come to haunt you more often than not. Your 20 level pre-epic career should not be assumed. Again, if you are not playing in highly optimized D&D play, go knock yourself out with a Monk-1/Druid-19. I won't deny the coolness factor or the fun of such a build. Yeah, you could wear the armor, but good luck swimming in it when it weighs you down to where you sink to the bottom of the river and drown unless you're going to waste a Wild Shape use on just turning into a fish just to swim across a river that needn't be necessary when you can swim across proficiently with no armor and without wasting a Wild Shape use for the day. :confused: Are you even familiar with highly optimized Druid gear and movement tactics? You're right. I'm one of those people who always wish they had a higher AC because I would rather dodge a spell or an attack rather than be forced to accept the damage or forced to save versus spell. My concern is when you start getting into epic levels where epic level monsters have insane attack bonuses for even their CR and tends to have very detrimental effects if you're even hit with one of their attacks, it then becomes increasingly paramount to avoid getting hit entirely (or at least make an effort to make it significantly more difficult for the enemy to hit you) because it can mean life or death at that point. If your primary concern is when you start getting into epic levels, your eliminating the broadscale perspective of the Druid's first 19 levels. Which is what a huge and vast majority of all gamers play. And keep in mind, the Druid20 gets epic benefits one level earlier than your Monk1 option. In addition to the whole litany of other benefits I listed in my prior post. In the CO Forum, there is definitely a predilection for discussing optimization from a pre-epic angle. There's a lot more talk about epic survival, builds, tactics, and whatnot at the WotC Epic Forum. Regarding your interest in my tactics in dealing with MDJ, anti-magic zones, and AMF's ... I play in synergetic partys that have optimized combinatorial mechanics. I don't have to face such hazardous environments all by myself. And to this date, my collective parties have successfully dealt with each of those encounters (except for one - where we lost our party Wizard) using a variety of ways to deal with them. You're blowing it out of proportion that it's the end of the world when in fact it's not. Actually ... I'm not. Re-read my posts for your own edification. I'm really not interested in displays of emotion in my posts. Although I do welcome discourse and debate. |
| ShadowCrown07-19-04, 10:23 PM | Here's the issue, in my opinion: as Snow's said, more AC is always good, but for every increase in AC, you create a marginal decrease in utility for future improvement. And particularly for the main roles a druid is usually playing, AC isn't that important. However, those things you're giving up are those that are most important to druids. And make no mistake, you /are/ giving them up. The argument that you can "wait one more level" for any particular ability doesn't address the problem. For any particular encounter, or series of encounters, you're one caster level shorter than you should be. You are at a significant disadvantage in the archetypal areas you need to be strongest in. Regardless of the fact that you will have the ability eventually, at any particular point, during any particular combat, you are lacking those spells and that caster level. It seems to me that's the core issue, that the main bonus for the dip is towards what is normally a side issue for your archetype, and that the advantage for staying pure druid is better execution of your primary function. However, on top of that basic cost/benefit analysis, we learn that the main benefit of the dip can be duplicated with a magic item. Yes, there are certainly circumstances which you will be denied that bonus, but I think the vast majority of the time, you won't. After 13th level, you're probably spending hte vast majority of your time in legendary ape form, which basically lets you use all your normal magic items while giving you top-quality fighter physical stats. Since if you can't wear a belt, you probably can't use most of your magic items, you'll very rarely spend a lot of time in forms that deny you those advantages. Sure, you eat an MDJ every once in awhile, but most of the time, you will have that advantage, and you'll have your caster level too. In the end, I think the caster level outweighs pretty strongly regardless, but even if you could duplicate the wis to ac only a third of the time, that's still a third of the time that you have both advantages, whereas you can't ever replace that caster level. |
| allenchan07-19-04, 11:02 PM | A simple Monk's Belt will solve your AC woes, though you wont start off with it (and not sure how your DM is about handing out magic items), but that relatively cheap item will be just as good as level of Monk for you. And you should look at the Vermin companions. Some of there are pretty nice, and after all, you are practicly a vermin yourself (being a Jermlaine) |
| RaKhan07-20-04, 03:10 AM | Originally posted by Snow Savant RaKhan, no one is attacking you. Although I will systematically address each one of your assertions in the counter-quotes below. And since you seem interested and critical of my two DM's, I will give you some background on them. Both my gaming groups are well-established 20+ year gaming groups located in NYC, USA. I myself am the youngster in each of them, although my fellow comrades are all 3.5 rules gurus and creative min/maxers to boot. Both DM's are the alpha-males of these gamers ... and encourage such behaviour because they themselves are world-class optimizers and tacticians to boot. I'm relatively "young" to the D&D scene as I haven't played for over a decade with my friends because I've only met these particular friends after I graduated from high school. These guys are my previous coworkers that I was blessed to have met and gotten to know them and D&D through them. I wasn't implying that your DMs weren't competent. From what you say, I think I would be interested in playing with your group if I even lived in your neighborhood; but since I'm about 5 to 6 hours driving away from you guys, that's probably not going to happen (especially since I'm not planning to move to NYC anytime soon). I was just attacking your hyperbole via reductio ad absurdum (reduction to the absurd...disproof of a proposition by showing an absurdity to which it leads when carried to its logical conclusion). I'm not debating that you might turn the tide in battle if you had one particular spell memorized for the day (one of the reasons I prefer playing the sorceror class over other spellcasters). What I am disputing is that if your DM is resting the fate of your life or maybe the whole party's lives on whether you can cast a higher level spell that you don't have because you had taking 1 level in a spellcasting class, then the DM is not preparing the encounters of the party effectively. You have other people in your party that should be able to help compensate for anyone's weaknesses or things that lie outside of their forte. We've learned the hard way that enemy primary spellcasters of equivalent or higher CR levels will be armed with full spellcaster progression (unlike a lot of WotC & D20 modules where wacky BBEG builds like Sorceror9/Monk3 actualy claim to be powerful adversaries) will *KILL* you. Fast and easy ... because high level spells do such things and are harder to resist. And the highly min/maxed primary spellcasters we face are there to deal with the PC's in the most savagely efficient way possible. So yeah, we get MDJ's thrown at us as well as save-or-die's on a consistent basis. And we all find its balanced and challenging without being a TPK-delirium situation. Hey, I agree with you about how poorly WotC designs the iconic characters that we've all know and love given the mechanics that they themselves have created in 3.x. Elminster even looks weak in the FRCS book, sorry to say. But there's a big difference between losing just 1 level of spellcasting levels and about half a dozen or more that the WotC designers decided to give their iconic characters, or even ones shown in the module. If you were to play a +1 LA race, you'd also be behind the rest of the party in spellcasting levels because your character level would be 1 behind just as if you played a standard race but took just 1 level in a non-spellcasting class. People have debated before and said that they believe that playing a +1 LA race is fine, but not anything more than that if you're going to play a spellcaster. Even I would tend to disagree if I wanted to play a drow spellcaster, which you know has a +2 LA. Now you're going to tell me that losing 1 spell level is going to make a big difference that your cannot survive your encounters on a consistent basis? I call bovine excrement on that notion. In average play, perhaps. Not against min/maxed opposition with equal or higher spellcaster levels who also use Spell Penetration, Beads of Karma, Ankhs of Ascension, Spell Power +X mechanics, etc. to maximize their offensive output. I don't even know what Beads of Karma and Ankhs of Ascension are, but any DM making a significant NPC opponent should min/max him so that he's an actual challenge to defeat. It would suck that after you beat through minions that could whip his wimpy arse that he's just a little girlie man. Of course. But I can also personally attest to seeing primary spellcasters fail and/or die by being in combat situations where with an extra spellcaster level, they could have turned the tide of the battle. And we are talking about anywhere from 1 to 3 mechanical aspects of that additional spellcaster level that could have made a difference between win and lose. Now, for a druid that's probably going to assist in melee alone because as you say, one would probably use Legendary Ape as a common Wild Shape, then you should agree that having that AC bonus from Wis would be very beneficial, especially if you have Bracers of Armor +8 (pre-epic) which your ape could realistically wear without any Wilding enchantment. Sure you could get Dragonhide armor if you want something like heavy armor to slow you down or sink you in a river. But why? For an variable AC bonus of around +10 to a character that already kicks arse in the AC category? You could be starting the ATF/Wildshape combinatorial madness a level earlier in addition to having all the other class goodies that come from the Druid single-classing. Delaying by 1 level can indeed be extremely deadly. And assuming that you'll get the neato class abilities "at next level" is inserting a guaranteed assumption of survival-&-success into a game where there should be none. I don't consider a Legendary Ape's 19 AC to be really that exceptional at 13th level (since it's a 13 HD creature, you can't change to that form until you're 13th level bare minimum). Sure, you could wear Wild Dragonhide Armor...if you have it. You would always have an additional +6 AC bonus from your Wis assuming that you'd even have a 17 Wis to start out with (which anyone in their right mind making a druid would usually max out at 18 anyway to start with). It might be my cynicism playing in other gaming groups, but I don't rely on the DM to create items for me that I might need, nor do I want to waste feats on Creation feats that I will most likely not have the time to use in such campaigns that I tend to play in. I've never seen a DM pull off shenanigans like that. And I fundamentally disagree with you on that 1 level difference "being life and death". In highly optimized play, there is no guarantee of survival after your next combat. There is no guarantee of your Iconic-4 party using 25% of your party resources to defeat the next encounter. In highly optimized play, ideosynchratic flaws in build structure and combinatorial party dynamics will come to haunt you more often than not. Your 20 level pre-epic career should not be assumed. Again, if you are not playing in highly optimized D&D play, go knock yourself out with a Monk-1/Druid-19. I won't deny the coolness factor or the fun of such a build. I highly doubt that WotC created all the spells and the mechanics at each level to make it absolutely essential for one not to lose any levels to non-spellcasting classes. People on the boards constantly complain about how some things are overly broken or too weak. Can it at occasional times mean the difference between life and death? Yes, it certainly could. So could not having the AC from your Wis being able to add to your touch AC as well as flat-footed AC (natural armor and regular armor only help with the latter except for what enchantment bonuses you might have on manufactured armor). :confused: Are you even familiar with highly optimized Druid gear and movement tactics? Well, I don't have Complete Divine nor some other books available since 3.5 came out (I don't have any 3.5 books because I don't have the money to buy them yet). So I can't say that I know of all possible items out there that one could use in a campaign. My gaming group tends not to have enough room to use minitures all the time. If your primary concern is when you start getting into epic levels, your eliminating the broadscale perspective of the Druid's first 19 levels. Which is what a huge and vast majority of all gamers play. And keep in mind, the Druid20 gets epic benefits one level earlier than your Monk1 option. In addition to the whole litany of other benefits I listed in my prior post. In the CO Forum, there is definitely a predilection for discussing optimization from a pre-epic angle. There's a lot more talk about epic survival, builds, tactics, and whatnot at the WotC Epic Forum. No, a Druid 20 does not get any epic Wild feats any sooner than a Monk 1 / Druid 19 can. You can meet the prerequisites for the epic Wild feats with just 18 druid levels and 2 levels in something else because you only need to be able to Wild Shape 6/day plus druid class skills which can and will be maxed by epic level. You're right though that most people tend not to play into epic levels. If someone knows ahead of time that they will not make it to epic levels, then I would suggest not taking the monk level and just go completely straight druid. Regarding your interest in my tactics in dealing with MDJ, anti-magic zones, and AMF's ... I play in synergetic partys that have optimized combinatorial mechanics. I don't have to face such hazardous environments all by myself. And to this date, my collective parties have successfully dealt with each of those encounters (except for one - where we lost our party Wizard) using a variety of ways to deal with them. Well, that's what I was saying earlier. Just as having 1 more spell should not on a regular basis mean the difference between life and death, so should these effects not also mean the difference between life and death. Your party should be a team and help out each other whenever another is in dire danger. I've done so when fellow PCs got beat down pretty bad. Actually ... I'm not. Re-read my posts for your own edification. I'm really not interested in displays of emotion in my posts. Although I do welcome discourse and debate. Well, my point was that your hyberbole was a little over the top. I'm not saying a Monk 1 / Druid X build is better than a Druid X+1 build in all situations. I'm just saying it's a potential build that could possibly be useful depending on if the character is going to gain XP into high or even epic levels. All I've seen from you is over-the-top hyperbole that tries to demonize ever losing 1 caster level when other people here damn well know that being 1 level off is usually not life or death. Do you expect your tanks to all have 18s in Str, Dex, and Con, your divine casters to have 18s in Int, Wis, and Cha, and your monks have 18s in all stats but Cha just to be effective in your games? Maybe your DMs are also rather generous in providing all the "necessary" magical equipment that you need, but not all DMs are like that. I mean hell, are you going to be disappointed if a fighter in your group only has 14 Str instead of 18? That could mean a difference between life and death! Anyway, I'm done arguing for now on this particular topic. I've simply made a suggestion for a build to give a druid a little bit more potential survivability in combat. Other people have survived combats where their extra AC from Wis did help them with such a build. I'm sorry I don't remember the thread's title, but I made a smartass reply that was even directed towards you saying that "See, Snow Savant? That Wis bonus to AC can save lives (or something to that effect). I've personally have made a human female Monk 1 / Cleric X to go with my main character, a human male Monk X+1 (a husband/wife team), and I've never regretted taking that 1 level in Monk during that campaign. It was helpful, and she doesn't have to wear armor to be hard to hit. She also doesn't need weapons to attack normal things, although she'd use a magical quarterstaff if she needed to hit things. Not only that, my straight monk could and would tank just as good as the dwarven fighter in the party. I even outlasted him in a combat when we tagteamed a rather bad-arsed duo of monsters. He had more HPs than me, but I had a higher AC than he did. Considering that a druid would tend to help melee, having that extra AC since he doesn't have the HD of a fighter nor a barbarian can help the druid last longer in combat; and I would rather have such an ability be available in all of my potential Wild Shapes instead of a few. |
| deusxmachina07-20-04, 05:17 AM | One often overlooked thing about monk/druid is a monk must be lawful and a druid must be neutral. Lawful-neutral works fine, and being a lawful-something monk at first level is fine since you still retain the powers if you switch alignment, but you'd have to find a way to explain how your new character is suddenly not lawful anymore (unless lawful-neutral) at second level because you want to be a druid. I think legendary ape form has been nixed in 3.5 somewhere. That makes sense since it can be hard enough for some druids to wildshape into a polar bear, much less be familiar enough with a legendary creature, what with them being the stuff of legends and all. |
| Ranthanas07-20-04, 07:24 AM | RaKahn, you're so far out of your league it's funny. First, your objection to me: If a venerable druid is in an anti-magic field, his physical stats are 6 points lower than they would normally be and he can't use his magic to support him. Whether with or without the monk's level, his best bet is to either run away or surrender. Hawk and cat are not combat forms- if they are being shot at, the druid is doing something pretty seriously wrong and had better either flee or morph. In both cases, the druid is screwed with or without the monk level in the situation you describe if it reaches combat. At low levels, the Monk level is counteracted by leather armour and a heavy wooden shield for +4 AC (at the cost of about 30GP)- and your maximum Wis in the first few levels is going to be 18, meaning it is a complete counteracting. Monk 1/Druid x-1 is therefore slightly better than Druid x in the two cases of the Anti-Magic Field and after a successful Mordaniken's Disjunction (and remember druids have a high will save and a high wis). The Druid x is slightly better at all other times. I know which comes up more often (and it ain't anti-magic fields or mords disjunctions). Snow was not (correct me if I'm wrong please Snow) saying that Monk 1/Druid x-1 is crap- what she was saying is that it is a worse choice than Druid x. (Oh, and you're wrong about epic as well. In epic, you'll get bonus abilities for your class level (a feat every four levels, a better companion and extra uses of wildshape)- and an epic druid is still ahead. P.S. In your anecdote with your monk and a dwarven fighter, what sort of armour was the fighter wearing? I assume it wasn't full plate and a large shield (as is near mandatory for dwarf tank fighers IMO)- either that or you must have had some very high stats. Or the enemies were concentrating on the fighter. |
| Enoch Van Garret07-20-04, 08:29 AM | Originally posted by Snow Savant Partys need to be structured around killing with maximum authority. Clerics in the back row playing Mr. Fixit with in-combat CLW's are destined for the TPK pile ... assuming your DM's are min/maxers and savvy tacticians like mine. One of my favorite tricks as a DM is to soften up multiple members of the party with weak, fast-attacking monsters, give the clerics a few rounds to waste meleeing instead of healing. Then hit them all with an AE attack like a fireball, and watch the characters that the clerics could have saved by healing die - and the blame falls solely on the cleric. The party in the campaign I am running would have TPK'd many times over had the clerics not healed the other party members during combat. It's true that structuring a character around combat in general is a strong choice. But it's also a grievous mistake to say that a particular course of action is always the best choice - I can remember a 21st level encounter where a cleric specifically NOT meleeing saved the entire party, as it turned out he was the only one out of range of the monster's age-opponents-to-dust AE attack, and his Miracle turned the tide for us. |
| RaKhan07-20-04, 02:11 PM | Originally posted by Ranthanas RaKahn, you're so far out of your league it's funny. First, your objection to me: If a venerable druid is in an anti-magic field, his physical stats are 6 points lower than they would normally be and he can't use his magic to support him. Whether with or without the monk's level, his best bet is to either run away or surrender. OK, first, as I've already told Snow, I don't have Complete Divine nor a lot of other books so I have no clue what you're talking about when you refer to a venerable druid. I do have Master of the Wild and a few other 3.0 material. Hawk and cat are not combat forms- if they are being shot at, the druid is doing something pretty seriously wrong and had better either flee or morph. Yes, I agree that they're not combat forms. So what if you chose to Wild Shape into a small bird and fly away because a battle is going bad and you needed to retreat? You don't think that your enemies wouldn't see you change into such and either shoot arrows at you or cast spells at you? Please! In both cases, the druid is screwed with or without the monk level in the situation you describe if it reaches combat. In the case of getting hit with MD, he could survive that. If he ends up in an antimagic field, he needs to find a way out and fast. However, if he would be in an antimagic field set as a trap, he'd lose his AC bonus from which his enemies could shoot normal arrows at him and hit him hard. You don't think a DM would be intelligent to set up such a trap? Well, then maybe your DM isn't canny enough to DM. Sure, you should rely on your other party members to help when situations that surpress your abilities, but the fact is that it would indeed help to have a natural ability to dodge attacks when magic is disjoined and/or surpressed. At low levels, the Monk level is counteracted by leather armour and a heavy wooden shield for +4 AC (at the cost of about 30GP)- and your maximum Wis in the first few levels is going to be 18, meaning it is a complete counteracting. I'm not saying that the Wis bonus will provide a higher AC bonus than if you had just worn some piece of armor (which you can still do if your Wis isn't giving you enough AC compared to a piece of armor you have on hand. Monk 1/Druid x-1 is therefore slightly better than Druid x in the two cases of the Anti-Magic Field and after a successful Mordaniken's Disjunction (and remember druids have a high will save and a high wis). The Druid x is slightly better at all other times. I know which comes up more often (and it ain't anti-magic fields or mords disjunctions). Any DM worth his weight in gold who has a spellcasting BBEG is going to dispell, disjoin, and/or surpress magic on the party as often as he can. When you play at higher levels, those spellcasting BBEGs are going to have more spell slots available for some dispelling, disjoining, or surpressing magic. Snow was not (correct me if I'm wrong please Snow) saying that Monk 1/Druid x-1 is crap- what she was saying is that it is a worse choice than Druid x. She practically implied that it was crap by her impassioned arguments against it. When you say a build is crippled, one can reasonably deduce that it's considered "crap" in the same light. (Oh, and you're wrong about epic as well. In epic, you'll get bonus abilities for your class level (a feat every four levels, a better companion and extra uses of wildshape)- and an epic druid is still ahead. I haven't said anything to dispute that let alone contrary to that. You need to reread my comments I've made toward Snow and realize what context they were in because I didn't even touch on this tangent that you've brought up. P.S. In your anecdote with your monk and a dwarven fighter, what sort of armour was the fighter wearing? I assume it wasn't full plate and a large shield (as is near mandatory for dwarf tank fighers IMO)- either that or you must have had some very high stats. Or the enemies were concentrating on the fighter. I don't know if it was full plate or not. I know we didn't have magical equipment at that time, and I did have an 18 in both Dex and Wis to max out my AC potential. |
| Enoch Van Garret07-20-04, 02:24 PM | For your information, RaKhan, Venerable is an age category. Older PCs have higher mental scores and lower physical scores - you can find more information on this in the 'Characters' section of your Player's Handbook. |
| Skulan07-20-04, 02:26 PM | For informational purposes, Venerable is an age category found in the Description section of the Player's Handbook. It gives you a bonus to mental stats and a penalty to physical stats. -Skulan EDIT: Appears I need to be quicker on the draw. Ah, well. |
| Enoch Van Garret07-20-04, 02:33 PM | Skulan, i hear the feat "Chronic Boredom" gives a +1 to post speed. It's a prerequisite for "I surf the boards all day" which lets you make posts as a free action. |
| cryptictravler07-20-04, 02:48 PM | AC is pretty similar on a non-monk druid until you hit big levels (mid to early twenties). A dragonhide wilding fullplate +5 and a dragonhide animated heavy shield +5 net a total of 20 AC so a monk would need bracers +8 and a 34 wisdom to beat it. (18 base+5 inherint+6 enhancement+ 5 levels) The monk has better AC because it is is more resilient to magic, harder to sunder, better in AMF I would say that the monk level is a benefit in only a few situations. First it is much better at avoiding touch attacks., if you face a lot of wizards or cleric NPCs it might be worth it. Second, if getting equipment, especially tailored or powerful equiment is hard the monk level is better. Bracers+x are oing to be more common than dragon-hide wilding armor in almost every campaign. Thirdly, if you really like grappling and not forms with improved grab..it is decent. |
| Ranthanas07-20-04, 02:59 PM | Erm, Cryptictraveller, why do you need that equipment? Monk's Belt will cover the arms and armour, while even if you want to do it your way the shield can be wooden rather than dragonhide. |
| Zeffan the Fighting Man07-20-04, 03:33 PM | Here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=270607) is the link you seek, RaKhan. It was my druid Monk that told the tale of being saved by a higher AC. That said, given 42up's parameters for a druid...SNOW is spot on! I would not take that monk level unless I was also going to go VoP and not be able to use armor or magic items. No VoP--NO MONK!! At Higher levels (8th and beyond) Snow's suggestions are all superior to the single bump dump of a Monk 1/ druid X. Zeffan the Fighting Man Gaming since '78 |
| 42up07-20-04, 05:56 PM | As for the campaign...it utilizes many of the living greyhawk rules without being set in greyhawk. What does this mean about the monks belt? It does not provide wisdom bonus to AC as per the triad. As for my starting wisdom, it will be 27 as the venerable jermainline. As for magic items, the DM is very lenient. That means my druid...if I go 1 lvl of monk is going to end up wearing- +5 robes of heavy fortification +8 bracers of heavy armor |
| Fălenganor07-20-04, 06:04 PM | Originally posted by Enoch Van Garret Skulan, i hear the feat "Chronic Boredom" gives a +1 to post speed. It's a prerequisite for "I surf the boards all day" which lets you make posts as a free action. Yar! Heard wrong, it`s +2, and ''Chronic Boredom" is also a prerequisite for ''Useless Post'', belive me, I have it and use it a lot! :D |
| RaKhan07-21-04, 02:16 AM | Originally posted by 42up As for magic items, the DM is very lenient. That means my druid...if I go 1 lvl of monk is going to end up wearing- +5 robes of heavy fortification +8 bracers of heavy armor Wow! hahahah! Consider yourself officially spoiled. :P ;) |
| 42up07-21-04, 01:16 PM | eh...you would be suprised on the spoiled factor. |
| necrosnoop11007-21-04, 03:22 PM | 42up this whole yoda-like Druid has me intrigued, got a full build for it yet? |
| balefire4207-21-04, 06:14 PM | Originally posted by 42up +5 robes of heavy fortification +8 bracers of heavy armor These both provide an armor bonus, and thus do not stack right? |
| 42up07-22-04, 12:33 PM | working on it as for the robe and bracers, they do stack. The robe provides and enhancement bonus and the bracers an armor bonus. |
| EatFlan07-22-04, 02:35 PM | skipping some of the 5000 word replies if 42up wants to 'go ape and beat peoples skulls in' or whatever, then maybe a level or 2 of warshaper (complete warrior) would be nice. don't harp about the spell casting loss plz. and if you do go monk that way you can grapple in your wild forms and w/the immunity to crits and stuns @ WS1 you can grapple all day without the common fear of being SA'd to death. i think i post about the warshaper at least 2x a day... |
| allenchan07-25-04, 12:46 AM | A bit off-topic, but where does it say you can enchant robes? I cant find it in the SRD :confused: |
| RaKhan07-25-04, 01:41 AM | Originally posted by allenchan A bit off-topic, but where does it say you can enchant robes? I cant find it in the SRD :confused: I believe that's a DM house rule as you normally wouldn't be able to do such a thing per the rules as written. |