Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Nicholas the Paladin 07-31-06, 09:22 AM	Hi Guys, Is the Aasimar LA+1 worth it for a 12th level paladin? (a Pal5/Cl1/Fist7, to be precise). thanks
Iron Klaw Merc 07-31-06, 09:47 AM	I would say so, the bonus to charisma helps with the saves and other charisma based abilities, the resistances are handy, even if they are a little low, oh and I like the aasimar feats in the Races of Faerun book.
zdathen 07-31-06, 09:54 AM	well I think it is but I love aasimar palidans particularly with some of the racial feats from races of faerun and I allow in my games the pcs to buy off such a low LA as per the rules in unearthed arcana my Aasimar palidan is as follows Pal 13 (actually Pal 10 and Aasimar Paragon 3 based of tiefling paragon) Str 24 Dex 12 Con 18 Int 10 Wis 14 Cha 22 (above stats with adjustments from eq etc) Eyes of Light, Celestial bloodline, Light to Daylight, Outsider wings (this is just a snipit he was designed as a "chosen Palidan" by focusing on the good within himself he found greater connection to his celestial heritage hes got a bunch of exhalted feats too) PS my gm allows the use of flaws for extra feats hes inobservent -4 to spot and search (seriously roleplayed) And Vulnerable -1 ac not because hes poorly trained but because his gifted celestial nature makes him a little too cocky and not cautious enough about those evil doers he opposes
josephbt 07-31-06, 09:54 AM	having played an aasimar pally, i must say: "No, never, not even in a wet dream." The missing HD, BAB and saves is awful. except for goliath and chaos gnome +1LA races contain uber amounts of suckage.
Nicholas the Paladin 07-31-06, 10:18 AM	having played an aasimar pally, i must say: "No, never, not even in a wet dream." The missing HD, BAB and saves is awful. True, but the +2 WIS an +2 CHA can mean a lot: * +1 to all saves because of higher CHA * +1 Will because of higher WIS * +1 better Smites because of higher CHA (I'm a smiter, doing about 5 a day) * +1 higher DC for my spells (although it's pretty low to begin with, so I usually cast just to buff) * higher CHA gives me: better 'divine shield' and 'divine might' (divine feats) I agree about the loss of BAB and HD..... the Aasimar has some nice abilities though (Daylight, darkvision, being an native outsider, forgot the rest). But you have a point.
Piraatje 07-31-06, 11:35 AM	Depends if you use LA-buyoff rules from UA. On a sidenote, you should really change that build to have more cleric and less paladinlevels =)
Nicholas the Paladin 07-31-06, 12:39 PM	Depends if you use LA-buyoff rules from UA. I checked it out. These rules take normal progression into account. But since I'm 12th level it would cost me 12.000 XP (?).......or would it be 3000 XP for I can buy it of at 3rd level ? 12.000 XP (or more) seems a bit steep to buy of +1 LA. (sorry if I get it wrong. I don't understand these ECL rules)
Kurama Youko 07-31-06, 01:04 PM	you can always use the Aasirmar LA +0 found on the WotC Website under Savage Progressions. Actually I highly recommend you do that instead then you get the best of both worlds and yes, the feats from races of faerun will still work and thus making you incredibly cool.
Lilt 07-31-06, 01:47 PM	Well, firstly your proposed build is illegal. You've taken one too few levels to get the requirements before you took fist of raziel, and listed a 13th level build but said you were wanting a 12th level character. Fist of Raziel has an entry requirement of +6BAB, whilst your build only has +5 from Paladin 5/Cleric 1. I'd agree with the idea of taking the +0LA paladin, found here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a). If that's not allowed then I'd suggest only taking it if LA buyoff is allowed, in which case you'd be 3kXP behind as you'd have bought it off at level 3. To counter your points about the benefits of +2 Wisdom and +2 Charisma: +2 Wisdom may give you +1 save DCs, but you're also -1 CL and a level of spells behind half the time. The higher level of spells would have a save DC 1 higher than otherwise, and the effects of higher-level spells are noteably more potent. You have 1 lower BAB, meaning your smites are on the same attack bonus as they would be with +2 charisma, and all of your other attacks are on +1 too. You're also a level behind on your saves, negating some of the effect of the increased charisma. I'll also add my weight to the suggestion of lowering the number of paladin levels in there whilst increasing the number of clerical ones. Maybe consider: Paladin 3/Cleric 4/Fist of Raziel 5 Or Paladin 2/Cleric 4/Fighter 1/Fist of Raziel 5 There's relatively little point in going to Paladin 5. You get a bit more damage on smites, another smite, and a mount, but really smites pale in the end compared to clerical casting. Only taking 3 levels of non-cleric before Fist of Raziel also lets you keep your caster level high with Practiced Spellcaster. By putting a level of fighter in there, you can take Power Attack with it and thus free a feat for something else. The extra feat could be Extra Smiting if you really want to go that way. To copmplete the build, I'd suggest completing FoR then taking some levels of a clerical-casting PrC like Church Inquisitor or Divine Disciple. In-fact if you're allowed the fractional base bonus rules (unearthed arcana) then consider taking a level of Church Inquisitor instead of the 4th level of cleric. That gives you more skill points and some funky abilities. Have you put any thoughts into domain choices?
dokesa 07-31-06, 01:47 PM	I checked it out. These rules take normal progression into account. But since I'm 12th level it would cost me 12.000 XP (?).......or would it be 3000 XP for I can buy it of at 3rd level ? 12.000 XP (or more) seems a bit steep to buy of +1 LA. (sorry if I get it wrong. I don't understand these ECL rules) The payment must be made immediately upon becoming eligible to reduce the character's level adjustment. Technically, you can't reduce the LA anymore. If the above sentence were not there, you would use your current ECL, so it would be (current ECL -1) × 1,000, or 11,000 xp.
ninjarabbit 07-31-06, 03:49 PM	Instead of cleric I'd recommend using divine crusader so you can cast 9th level spells in one domain. A paladin5/fighter2/divinecrusader1/FoR10/x1 will work.
Nicholas the Paladin 07-31-06, 03:52 PM	Well, firstly your proposed build is illegal. You've taken one too few levels to get the requirements before you took fist of raziel, and listed a 13th level build but said you were wanting a 12th level character. Fist of Raziel has an entry requirement of +6BAB, whilst your build only has +5 from Paladin 5/Cleric 1. actually it's Pal5/F2/Cl1/fist-etc....just a typo. No it's not optimal, but I like it the way it is. I'd agree with the idea of taking the +0LA paladin, found here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a). Ah yes, this is nice and easy. I like it. The resistance value of 2 is a laugh, but the rest gives you exact feeling of an aasimar. If that's not allowed then I'd suggest only taking it if LA buyoff is allowed, in which case you'd be 3kXP behind as you'd have bought it off at level 3. That's not all that bad...although Dokesa seems to disagree To counter your points about the benefits of +2 Wisdom and +2 Charisma: +2 Wisdom may give you +1 save DCs, but you're also -1 CL and a level of spells behind half the time. The higher level of spells would have a save DC 1 higher than otherwise, and the effects of higher-level spells are noteably more potent.?True. My DC argument isn't that good. You have 1 lower BAB, meaning your smites are on the same attack bonus as they would be with +2 charisma, and all of your other attacks are on +1 too. You're also a level behind on your saves, negating some of the effect of the increased charisma. True again. You are right about being a +1 BAB behind. , But, I think the saves are better though.
thorian 07-31-06, 05:44 PM	The other option for an Aasimar is the Lesser Planetouched version in Player's Guide to Faerun, p. 191. It has a LA of 0 as well.
canadianguy 07-31-06, 08:27 PM	Sorry to do this. How do you get to the 0 la one at the web site?
igotsmeakabob!! 07-31-06, 08:52 PM	Depends if you use LA-buyoff rules from UA. On a sidenote, you should really change that build to have more cleric and less paladinlevels =) What page is that on?
jstorrie 07-31-06, 09:05 PM	For a Pal 2 / Cler 4 (Destruction domain) / Pious Templar 3-4 / Fist XX? Sure. If you're focusing heavily on Cha and Wis based abilities, it can work. If not, stick with human.
PhoenixInferno 07-31-06, 09:17 PM	Sorry to do this. How do you get to the 0 la one at the web site? You click the :censored: link (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a) that Lilt provided (which was provided again for the mentally incompetent). Reducing Level Adjustments (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm)
igotsmeakabob!! 07-31-06, 11:20 PM	What I don't understand w/ taking the levels of LA classes listed in the link is, do you get hit dice, saves skills etc for those levels? or is it just a 'im a lvl 1 drow fighter with only the abilities listed, and when I take my first level of the drow template then ill get the abilities listed but no hit dice, so ill still have 10 hitpoints and be level 2'? im assuming its the latter.
igotsmeakabob!! 07-31-06, 11:24 PM	Reducing Level Adjustments (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm) after reading this... this makes LA races eventually more powerful than their non-LA partners, correct? not sure if I like that.. but it certainly is a good idea.
jstorrie 07-31-06, 11:28 PM	You get HD for some but not all of the levels, generally, and you have to finish your 'racial class' before you can take levels in anything else.
Janos Antero 08-01-06, 01:54 AM	after reading this... this makes LA races eventually more powerful than their non-LA partners, correct? not sure if I like that.. but it certainly is a good idea. For +1 LA it's a bit of a steal, but for +2 and higher it makes a pretty big difference and balances them out a lot more. Take a look at the last few paragraphs of the how it works section posted above using the Drow as an example.
Nicholas the Paladin 08-01-06, 02:34 AM	The other option for an Aasimar is the Lesser Planetouched version in Player's Guide to Faerun, p. 191. It has a LA of 0 as well. I don't have any books with me and will have them any time soon. Can you tell what this is? Posters, thanks for your tips BTW !
Tytalus 08-01-06, 03:19 AM	I don't have any books with me and will have them any time soon. Can you tell what this is? Basically an Aasimar that is not an outsider, but humanoids with the outsider subtype. I.e., no polymorph cheese, and you are affected both by spells like sleep and spells like banishment.
Nicholas the Paladin 08-01-06, 03:33 AM	Basically an Aasimar that is not an outsider, but humanoids with the outsider subtype. I.e., no polymorph cheese, and you are affected both by spells like sleep and spells like banishment. Right, that's not all that handy, is it? Are there any Ability-modifiers and/or little nifty tricks you can perform?
PhoenixInferno 08-01-06, 03:57 AM	Basically an Aasimar that is not an outsider, but humanoids with the outsider subtype. I.e., no polymorph cheese, and you are affected both by spells like sleep and spells like banishment.Wow. How wrong can you get? Aasimar are Outsider [Native] and thus not subject to spells that specifically target Humanoids (like Hold Person). They are, however, not subject to Banishment and the like because their home plane is the Prime Material. As Outsiders, they CAN Polymorph/Alter Self into any valid Outsider form. And according to Races of Destiny, they have to eat and sleep unlike other Outsiders.
Tytalus 08-01-06, 04:03 AM	Wow. How wrong can you get? Aasimar are Outsider [Native] and thus not subject to spells that specifically target Humanoids (like Hold Person). They are, however, not subject to Banishment and the like because their home plane is the Prime Material. As Outsiders, they CAN Polymorph/Alter Self into any valid Outsider form. And according to Races of Destiny, they have to eat and sleep unlike other Outsiders. Please read the proper context/post before replying with misinformation. My post was about the lesser Aasimar. Which is, essentially an aasimar, except for its type.
Tytalus 08-01-06, 04:04 AM	Right, that's not all that handy, is it? Are there any Ability-modifiers and/or little nifty tricks you can perform? You get all the ability modifers / special abilites of the regular Aasimar. Only the type is changed.
Nicholas the Paladin 08-01-06, 08:07 AM	You get all the ability modifers / special abilites of the regular Aasimar. Only the type is changed. Then it seems there is hardly a reason *not* to take the FR Aasimar....as long if it fit's the flavour of your character. (even the mentioned WotC-website 'savage progression'-version doesn't seem that good) Thanks all for your time !
Kharmakazy 08-01-06, 08:18 AM	Might I suggest http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040319a Combines aasimar and half-celestial into 3 levels. I like it better than taking plain aasimar or half-celestial. Get both on a budget!
Lilt 08-01-06, 09:47 AM	You get HD for some but not all of the levels, generally, and you have to finish your 'racial class' before you can take levels in anything else.Except that it's not a racial class. Characters are under no obligation to buy the level of LA. Racial classes only work for races with racial HD, the progression for aasimar practically requires you to take a level of some class before it is completed, so it can't work like that. @Nicholas the Paladin: I can only advise you again that the +1LA Aasimar is not optimal. You've not got effectively +1 on saves all the time, as being a level behind means that your saves will be lower anyway in the same way that your BAB is lower. You're also a feat and some skill points behind (assuming the other option is human), and believe me that skills do count even for classes with 2+Int skill points. With the spare feat that human gives you can afford to drop the second level of fighter, meaning you can take yet another level of spellcasting. The +0LA Aasimar is a good deal, though. The resistances of 2 are still useful. Note that any resistance to cold damage will mean that you can survive in extremely cold areas for long periods. The resistance to acid is still useful as acid damage tends to be done over time, meaning that it is probably going to be applied multiple times (Acid arrow, Acid fog, ETC). I don't know if you've read the ten commandments of character optimisation, but the fact that you should not lose caster levels is in there at-least once (perhaps twice or more). By sticking to your build you are losing the ability to be a significant casting threat for very little in return. As for reducing the level adjustment: You must have done the reduction at 3rd level, if at-all, meaning that it could only have ever cost 3kXP if it is allowed. @Kharmakazy: No, that's a transition class for if you're already an aasimar which lets you become half-celestial. It has no advantages over going a normal half-celestial, which is a bad idea for a caster.
PhoenixInferno 08-01-06, 12:40 PM	Please read the proper context/post before replying with misinformation. My post was about the lesser Aasimar. Which is, essentially an aasimar, except for its type.Is that right? Aasimar Base Racial Features ... Outsider Type: Aasimar are native outsiders. Thus, they are vulnerable to spells and effects that work on creatures of the outsider type but immune to effects that target other types. For example, an aasimar would be subject to the extra damage from an outsider bane sword but immune to hold person, since that spell affects only humanoids. Although I did look at the PGtF one and that's the one you describe. And its terrible - why would you want to be both a humanoid AND an outsider? I apologize. I was referencing the one on the Wizards site.
Tytalus 08-01-06, 11:27 PM	Then it seems there is hardly a reason *not* to take the FR Aasimar....as long if it fit's the flavour of your character. (even the mentioned WotC-website 'savage progression'-version doesn't seem that good) Just to be really clear: the 'FR Aasimar' is actually the 'normal' aasimar with +1 LA. Note that with UA, the LA can be bought off (3,000 XP), which a good deal for an outsider subtype IMHO. The PGtF Lesser Aasimar is just the same, except for its type. Then there's the Aasimar racial class (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a) from the WotC web pages. It's basically a 1-level savage progression, but you start off with all the goodies (most importantly: outsider type) and AFAIK can take the extra "aasimar level" any time, i.e., never. It's clearly the best deal, although IMHO it's cheesy. Is that right? Yes. You quoted the WotC savage progression entry for Aasimar, I was responding to what the PGtF Lesser Aasimar is. Although I did look at the PGtF one and that's the one you describe. And its terrible - why would you want to be both a humanoid AND an outsider? I apologize. I was referencing the one on the Wizards site. Note that I did not say it was. I was merely reporting the facts. However, the lesser aasimar is actually quite good for low-level play where types are not that important. For anything above, say 5th level, I'd *much* rather take the real Aasimar + LA buyoff myself, though.
Nicholas the Paladin 08-02-06, 03:13 AM	Just to be really clear: the 'FR Aasimar' is actually the 'normal' aasimar with +1 LA. Note that with UA, the LA can be bought off (3,000 XP), which a good deal for an outsider subtype IMHO. The PGtF Lesser Aasimar is just the same, except for its type. However, the lesser aasimar is actually quite good for low-level play where types are not that important. For anything above, say 5th level, I'd *much* rather take the real Aasimar + LA buyoff myself, though. The type of a regular aasimar is 'native outsider' (if I'm not mistaken), so it cannot be banished by a 'dismissal' or 'banish' spell to another (home) plane. The lesser aasimar is AND a humanoid AND a outsider....so it's subject to spells like 'hold person' AND 'banish/dismissal'. I guess, that's why you say the 'lesser' version is better for low level play (and low level spells). Right? So, what if a lesser aasimar get banished to Mount Celestia?
Thinblade 08-02-06, 07:52 AM	Then it wanders around, makes a lot of powerful friends, and comes back to the Prime to beat up whoever banished it.
Nicholas the Paladin 08-02-06, 11:38 AM	Then it wanders around, makes a lot of powerful friends, and comes back to the Prime to beat up whoever banished it. :P I'm afraid he will be back by the time when all the badguys are taken care of and XP has been awarded.
Tytalus 08-02-06, 11:45 AM	The type of a regular aasimar is 'native outsider' (if I'm not mistaken), so it cannot be banished by a 'dismissal' or 'banish' spell to another (home) plane. The lesser aasimar is AND a humanoid AND a outsider....so it's subject to spells like 'hold person' AND 'banish/dismissal'. Correct. Not sure why you had to quote me for that insight, though.
Nicholas the Paladin 08-04-06, 03:06 AM	Might I suggest http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040319a Combines aasimar and half-celestial into 3 levels. I like it better than taking plain aasimar or half-celestial. Get both on a budget! @Kharmakazy: No, that's a transition class for if you're already an aasimar which lets you become half-celestial. It has no advantages over going a normal half-celestial, which is a bad idea for a caster. So if you're allowed to payoff the LA+1 of the Aasimar (by UA rules) and then take 3 levels of this transition class, it WOULD be beneficial (in stead of taking 4 levels). Besides all the awesome ability-boosts and nice supernatural abilities, this transition class has no effect on BAB, saves etc? about casters: Besides that, if you're a more combat oriented class (let's say a full paladin) this half-celestial transition class would be good deal. Am I right?