Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tenken 07-28-03, 10:25 AM	Let me get this straight. An aasimar can cast light as a spell-like ability. A tiefling can case darkness as a spell-like ability. Of the two spells, darkness is the greater one, thus completely overriding the light spell. Okay, so what do the aasimars get in return for having a worse ability compared to the tieflings...? They both have an ECL of +1, yet the tiefling is easily the one with an (very small) advantage, but still an advantage nonetheless. Why is it that the bad guys always get more powerful stuff than the good guys? <grumble> Btw, yes, I know the aasimars can spend ONE feat to get the Light to Daylight feat, but c'mon, that's one feat he's gotta spend :/ Aasimar favored class is paladin (no bonus feats), and tieflings favored class is fighter (bonus feats). There you have it, still a disadvantage for the aasimar. Can someone tell me if this is wrong information, or if there's a workaround to balance this out?
Vorpal Warhammer 07-28-03, 10:34 AM	3.5 Aasimar cast Daylight instead of light. Plus they have +2 wis & +2 cha. 3.5 Tieflings cast Darkness still, but have +2 dex, +2 int, -2 cha.
Tenken 07-28-03, 10:41 AM	Originally posted by Vorpal Warhammer 3.5 Aasimar cast Daylight instead of light. Plus they have +2 wis & +2 cha. 3.5 Tieflings cast Darkness still, but have +2 dex, +2 int, -2 cha. Wonderful. Just what I was hoping for. Thank goodness! Not sure if you were trying to say that the Aasimar have an advantage over the tiefling now because they have no minuses on the ability score, but I did wanna point out that +2 dex gives you a plus on initiative, AC, and reflex saves. +2 wis merely gives you a better will save, so I think it's rather justified. Both cha and int doesn't really give all that much, so those two cancel out. :)
Snow Savant 07-28-03, 10:59 AM	Races of Faerun has feats specifically for Aasimar and Tieflings that build on their respective Light and Darkness abilities. These race specific feats can help make some pretty cool theme builds - the Aasimar who can Fly & cast Searing Light bolts ... and the Tiefling Darkness combatant (take 2 levels of Dungeon Delver to make this work). Snow
Reinhart 07-28-03, 01:41 PM	I don't necessarily buy that a physical racial bonus is really worth double that of a mental. The funny thing is that some people don't feel that Aasimar and Teifling are truely worthy of the +1 ECL. I mean look at Drow and everything they get for their +2 ECL. A couple of good abilities and a little elemental resistance is nothing compared to several good abilities 120ft darkvision and Spell Resistance. Aasimars get it even worse from WotC's perspective since they get no physical bonus and they have a restrictive favored class. Favored Class: Paladin is a bit annoying considering the multiclass complications with Paladin. Still, except for Humans and Half-elves, Aasimar are the only characters who can take several levels of Paladin and then jump to something else. For that reason I've seen people use these two races at ECL 0. A few drop the energy resistance to make it a bit more fair. (I never understood why Aasimar get energy resistance and Genasi don't) As is, though, I feel these two planetouched are the greatest at what they do best, their favored classes. Actually the favored class for Tiefling is rogue, not fighter. The principle abilities for a rogue are dexterity and intelligence. This makes Tieflings great rogues although they're less likely to be the charming/manipulative type of rogue. Aasimar make peerless Paladins too. (I know, Duh) Of course being absolutely great at a particular class doesn't warrent an ECL adjuster from WotC perspective. After all, look at the 3.5 Dwarves.
Funny Slaughter 07-28-03, 02:23 PM	reinhart, you are completely right. i think both aasimar and tiefling are a little bit weak for an ECL+1. genais, on the other had, are really badly underpowered. there was a recent thread about this, a few weeks ago, where we thought about abilities they could get to justify their leel adjustment gs Funny
Funny Slaughter 07-28-03, 02:24 PM	reinhart, you are completely right. i think both aasimar and tiefling are a little bit weak for an ECL+1. genais, on the other had, are really badly underpowered. there was a recent thread about this, a few weeks ago, where we thought about abilities they could get to justify their leel adjustment
catharz 07-28-03, 02:59 PM	Both Aasimar and tieflings are too powerful for LA+0, ergo LA+1. That should be obvious. I personally think that unbalanced ability scores, 3 resistances, a 3rd or 2nd level spell-like ability, and native outsider (best of both worlds) status are just on the high end of LA+1, slightly weaker than feral or Half-ogre, but much stronger than any other LA+1 race. They are kinda similar to illithids. At the first fiew levels, they are quite powerful (the spell-likes and energy resistance is amazing at level 1-5). At higher level, there are published feats (for plane touched) or prestige classes to keep they from getting to weak later on.
Tenken 07-28-03, 03:11 PM	I actually gotta agree with catharz on this one. I think the +1 ECL is justified because of the great bonus to the ability scores, being an outsider, and everything else they get. They have access to feats that allow them to fly, as well as "upgrade" their natural abilities with light/dark. If you're comparing it to other +1 ECL classes, maybe they're a bit weak. But they're definetely more powerful than a +0 ECL.
Reinhart 07-28-03, 03:51 PM	Being an outsider ain't all that and a bag of chips. Especially when there are weapons and spells that effect you more because of it. Yes, you're immune to charm/hold/dominate person, but in many ways the Elven +2 to all will saves involving enchantment is actually better because it extends to more spells and more powerful spells. Plus being an outsider means that, at least in my game, you're /more/ likely to end up on the recieving end of a charm/hold/dominate monster spell. After all, wizards have long sought the power of creatures and minions from other realms. Outsider status alone isn't enough to boost you to ECL+1, just look at Spirit Folk and Star Elves. The racial ability bonus is good, but also not enough to warrant an ECL+1. I think it's the elemental resistance the pushes them over the benchmark and since most players don't play these races specifically for this feature I doubt most would miss it if you removed it. The old Race Calc generator actually backed the low ECL of the plane touched. Elves and Aasimar were just about equal. Tieflings were the only plane-touched race to actually push into ECL 1. To me that means that the player is giving up alot ove XP for very little benefit. Even early on. So why not tailor the races a little for an ECL of 0? The only other option in my opinion is to give them something really worth the ECL +1.
catharz 07-28-03, 04:36 PM	Originally posted by Reinhart Outsider status alone isn't enough to boost you to ECL+1, just look at Spirit Folk and Star Elves. What do star elves and spirit folk have to do with an outsider's ECL increase? They are both humanoids... :confused: [EDIT]: 'Tailoring' the Aasimar and Tiefling would have to go as follows: 1) Get rid of unbalanced ability scores. that means no changes for Aasimar and Tiefling are something like +2dex/-2cha, +2int/-2cha, or +2int & dex/-2cha & something else. 2) Get rid of resistances. Thats 5 Acid/Cold/Electricity for Aasimar and Fire/Cold/Electricity for Tiefling. 3) Get rid of Spell-like abilities (2nd & 3rd level are too high for LA+0). No more Daylight of Darkness. That leaves Outsider type, low-light or darkvision, and favored class Paladin or Rogue, which sucks. It has no flavor. I'm sure its possible to come up with some other 'Aasimar' or 'Tiefling,' but they will undoubtably be either overpowered or bear little resemblance to the current planetouched. It looks to me as though it would appeal only to someone who really needed the outsider type for something and did not want to pay the LA. Fiend of X or Mortalhunter, anyone?