Aberrant Chain Tripper [Archive] - Wizards Community

Aberrant Chain Tripper [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Zemyla
06-20-05, 02:04 PM I just recently got "Lords of Madness" and "Races of Ebberon". And with those and Complete Warrior, I came up with something truly nasty.

It is a changeling with Aberrant Blood and Inhuman Reach, which gives it a 10' reach. Then you add the Savage Species feat Extend Reach and the Warshaper's Morphic Reach feat and you get 20' of reach. Then, wielding a spiked chain, that doubles to 40'.

Plus, the good thing is that the changeling's minor shape change acts as disguise self, which doesn't change your abilities. So you look perfectly normal until you smack someone 40' away.

Note: Some of this stuff is ganked from Snow Savant's Gatling Chain-Gun Tripper. Also, this build doesn't have Weapon Finesse because Warshaper gives you a high strength, and you want strength (for tripping) more than dex (for Combat Reflexes). And it's kind of weak in the early levels.

Race: Changeling
Class: Fighter 4/Warshaper 4/Fighter 12

Ftr 1 - Aberrant Blood, EWP (spiked chain)
Ftr 2 - Combat Expertise
Ftr 3 - Inhuman Reach
Ftr 4 - Improved Trip
Ftr 4/Wsh 1 - morphic immunities, morphic weapons
Ftr 4/Wsh 2 - morphic body, Extend Reach
Ftr 4/Wsh 3 - morphic reach
Ftr 4/Wsh 4 - morphic healing
Ftr 4/Wsh 4/Ftr 1 - Lightning Reflexes
Ftr 4/Wsh 4/Ftr 2 - Combat Reflexes
Ftr 4/Wsh 4/Ftr 3
Ftr 4/Wsh 4/Ftr 4 - Prone Attack, Knockdown
Ftr 4/Wsh 4/Ftr 5
Ftr 4/Wsh 4/Ftr 6 - Side Step
Ftr 4/Wsh 4/Ftr 7 - Stand Still
Ftr 4/Wsh 4/Ftr 8 - Deft Opportunist
Ftr 4/Wsh 4/Ftr 9
Ftr 4/Wsh 4/Ftr 10 - 2 free feats
Ftr 4/Wsh 4/Ftr 11
Ftr 4/Wsh 4/Ftr 12 - 1 free feat

If you don't feel like using a spiked chain, you can replace it with Improved Unarmed Strike, and then take Dodge and Great Throw later, so you can move people anywhere within a 20' radius.
rilem
06-20-05, 02:15 PM Scroll back a few pages — Caelic (I think it was him) had hit upon much the same thing (Changeline + Aberrant feats = Reach w/o penalty, among other things). I'm not sure if he applied the tactic to Snow's Gatling tripper, but there might be some other stuff in that thread you can use.
Elderich
06-20-05, 03:11 PM Fighter-20: The "Gatling Chain Gun" Tripper
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=163005&page=4

And the last page (4?) has a post by me about a better weapon than the spiked chain.
lgw
06-20-05, 06:58 PM i'm sorry, but as long as you stay medium, reach is +5 ft and not double range, as 5 ft is your base range. (also quite logical, as you may extend your body, but the weapons size stays the same.)

though 25 ft reach isn't really bad :-)
IceFractal
06-20-05, 07:20 PM I'm not so sure about that, because if it was the weapon's size that determined reach, then Monkey Grip would work, which I'm pretty sure it doesn't.
allenchan
06-20-05, 07:41 PM i'm sorry, but as long as you stay medium, reach is +5 ft and not double range, as 5 ft is your base range. (also quite logical, as you may extend your body, but the weapons size stays the same.)

though 25 ft reach isn't really bad :-)

Sorry, but, what the hell are you talking about?
Reach weapons are always double natural reach, not 'base' range. I've never even heard if base range. It doesn't exist as a term in dnd. If your natural reach increases, reach weapons double as per normal. Hence why Tiny creatures and smaller still have 0 reach even with reach weapons (0x2=0). This is addressed in the rules of the game articles, AoO's part 2
Lilt
06-20-05, 07:46 PM I'm not so sure about that, because if it was the weapon's size that determined reach, then Monkey Grip would work, which I'm pretty sure it doesn't.How can you reach targets 20ft past how far your limbs strech with a 10-11ft chain? monkey-grip can be explained by saying that you can't effectively hit creatures further away because you don't have the nessecary swing. Kindof like how wielding a 100ft long stick (I'm sure magic could make it weightless) doesn't give you a 100ft reach.

[edit] might be wrong, just checking.

[edit 2]Yep, The feat in LoM definately states that it doubles reach when combined with a reach weapon and states that this means a reach weapon threatens 15-20ft away. I might question wether or not Morphic Reach from Wrshaper does the same thing, as it does not list the modification as one to 'natural reach'. I'd also question wether or not the changeling qualified for extend reach, or wether or not it would apply to attacks with antural weapons given the talk of pseudopods ETC, but it seems to say that the feat says that the creature's natural reach is increased by 5ft so it seems to fly.
CappyTheMule
06-20-05, 11:22 PM Mageslayer I hold is an invaluable feat to any build with alot of reach, basically rendering spellcasters useless with in your range. Precise Swing from the Eberron Campaign Setting may also be helpful if your foes tend to get cover alot. You also have the Prereqs for Elusive Target, so you might as well take it.
lgw
06-21-05, 06:30 AM SRD - Equipment Weapons (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/weapons.html)

Reach Weapons: Glaives, guisarmes, lances, longspears, ranseurs, spiked chains, and whips are reach weapons. A reach weapon is a melee weapon that allows its wielder to strike at targets that aren’t adjacent to him or her. Most reach double the wielder’s natural reach, meaning that a typical Small or Medium wielder of such a weapon can attack a creature 10 feet away, but not a creature in an adjacent square. A typical Large character wielding a reach weapon of the appropriate size can attack a creature 15 or 20 feet away, but not adjacent creatures or creatures up to 10 feet away.

allenchan... i think the rules are quite explicit, that weapons for medium creatures increase reach by 5 ft - and not some hillarious something of 20 ft (or is there a new pr class "weapon morpher" or something ?!)

also, if you want to have a definition of appropriate, natural reach - the srd has one (bottom page) (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/movement.html)
thegreatbuddha
06-21-05, 06:48 AM Reach Weapons: Glaives, guisarmes, lances, longspears, ranseurs, spiked chains, and whips are reach weapons. A reach weapon is a melee weapon that allows its wielder to strike at targets that aren’t adjacent to him or her. Most reach double the wielder’s natural reach, meaning that a typical Small or Medium wielder of such a weapon can attack a creature 10 feet away, but not a creature in an adjacent square. A typical Large character wielding a reach weapon of the appropriate size can attack a creature 15 or 20 feet away, but not adjacent creatures or creatures up to 10 feet away.

Typical small or medium creatures have 5ft reach. Obviously, this guy does not. The only arguement you could make is common sense. Of course a 10ft chain can't be used to attack things 20ft beyond your normal reach, in real life. This is not real life, it's D&D, where common sense bows its head to things like magic and the RAW.
ancalimohtar
06-21-05, 06:50 AM lgw is correct; when he originally said "base range" he meant "natural reach," which is set by character size and special features. A Medium spiked chain is going to extend a certain length regardless of how long you can make your arms, and so the build in the OP has 25' reach.

Edit: thegreatbuddha, please read the SRD, through the link provided a couple posts above, and look at the table. Natural reach is determined by the type of CREATURE and SIZE you are. Most M creatures have 5' reach, though some have longer and some have shorter. That doesn't mean the few exceptions that exist all of a sudden double that extension with a spiked chain--remember, a M spiked chain is a M spiked chain is a M spiked chain.

One more edit: The descriptions of Extended Reach and Morphic Reach do not change natural reach, only (actual) reach. I don't have RoE so I can't commend on the reach modification there.
thegreatbuddha
06-21-05, 06:58 AM A Medium spiked chain is going to extend a certain length regardless of how long you can make your arms, and so the build in the OP has 25' reach.

Inhuman Reach specifically states that using a reach weapon doubles your normal (not natural) reach. It goes on to list an example of a medium character with the feat being able to attack creatures 15-20t away with a long spear. That's a direct contradiction of your claim.

So, like the original poster said, his normal reach is 20ft, doubled by a reach weapon to 40ft.

EDIT: Read the Natural reach table. Interesting little footnote at the bottom of it. These values are typical for creatures of the indicated size. Some exceptions exist.

A character with +15ft of reach is an exception.

Either way, Inhuman reach doesn't mention natural reach at all, only normal reach.
lgw
06-21-05, 06:59 AM i read that, yeah...

the point is rather: a weapon with reach 20 ft is just much to big for a medium character, as it would be a normal, 2 handed weapon for a gargantum creature.
by raw rules, you would have a -12 (if i remember correctly) on your attack role, for wilding an very, very oversized waepon - if allowed anyway.

the typical medium weapon is made for a typical medium character with a typical 5 ft reach.
any other weapons are custom made, and custom made is the point where you need dm approval and common sense, for sure, kicks in.
game over.

again, not to say that this build is bad - but you can not gain a greater reach then 20 ft (natural) / 25 ft (with chain) by this.
but you could easily get 50 ft by having enlarge cast on you (maybe to it yourself from a wand) - because enlarge _does_ affect your equipment.
thegreatbuddha
06-21-05, 07:04 AM If a reach weapon for a medium creature cannot extend reach more than 5ft, why does Inhuman Reach specifically mention a character with the feat and a longspear having a reach of 20ft?

By RAW rules, you would have a medium reach weapon approximately 10ft long that added 20t of reach.

Physically impossible? Yes

RAW? Yes

RAW > Laws of Reality
lgw
06-21-05, 08:18 AM sorry, i dont have lords of madness (sadly) - so i cannot state if thats true or not ;-)
Elderich
06-21-05, 02:36 PM the typical medium weapon is made for a typical medium character with a typical 5 ft reach. any other weapons are custom made, and custom made is the point where you need dm approval and common sense, for sure, kicks in. game over.The whip reach is 15Ft for medium characters. Not a custom weapon.
allenchan
06-21-05, 04:53 PM i read that, yeah...

the point is rather: a weapon with reach 20 ft is just much to big for a medium character, as it would be a normal, 2 handed weapon for a gargantum creature.

Ahh.. I see your problem is a weapon's actual, realistic length.
This is not supported by the rules. I've said it once, and I'll say it again. Logical and realism have no place here on the CO boards. The RAW often go against logic. House rule it all you want, but the rules are against you on this. It is always, always, always double(x2) not +5.
Zemyla
06-23-05, 12:48 PM A kalashtar can also gain 20' unarmed reach, with Monk 5/Atavist 5 and the Aggressive quori personality.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Zemyla 06-20-05, 02:04 PM	I just recently got "Lords of Madness" and "Races of Ebberon". And with those and Complete Warrior, I came up with something truly nasty. It is a changeling with Aberrant Blood and Inhuman Reach, which gives it a 10' reach. Then you add the Savage Species feat Extend Reach and the Warshaper's Morphic Reach feat and you get 20' of reach. Then, wielding a spiked chain, that doubles to 40'. Plus, the good thing is that the changeling's minor shape change acts as disguise self, which doesn't change your abilities. So you look perfectly normal until you smack someone 40' away. Note: Some of this stuff is ganked from Snow Savant's Gatling Chain-Gun Tripper. Also, this build doesn't have Weapon Finesse because Warshaper gives you a high strength, and you want strength (for tripping) more than dex (for Combat Reflexes). And it's kind of weak in the early levels. Race: Changeling Class: Fighter 4/Warshaper 4/Fighter 12 Ftr 1 - Aberrant Blood, EWP (spiked chain) Ftr 2 - Combat Expertise Ftr 3 - Inhuman Reach Ftr 4 - Improved Trip Ftr 4/Wsh 1 - morphic immunities, morphic weapons Ftr 4/Wsh 2 - morphic body, Extend Reach Ftr 4/Wsh 3 - morphic reach Ftr 4/Wsh 4 - morphic healing Ftr 4/Wsh 4/Ftr 1 - Lightning Reflexes Ftr 4/Wsh 4/Ftr 2 - Combat Reflexes Ftr 4/Wsh 4/Ftr 3 Ftr 4/Wsh 4/Ftr 4 - Prone Attack, Knockdown Ftr 4/Wsh 4/Ftr 5 Ftr 4/Wsh 4/Ftr 6 - Side Step Ftr 4/Wsh 4/Ftr 7 - Stand Still Ftr 4/Wsh 4/Ftr 8 - Deft Opportunist Ftr 4/Wsh 4/Ftr 9 Ftr 4/Wsh 4/Ftr 10 - 2 free feats Ftr 4/Wsh 4/Ftr 11 Ftr 4/Wsh 4/Ftr 12 - 1 free feat If you don't feel like using a spiked chain, you can replace it with Improved Unarmed Strike, and then take Dodge and Great Throw later, so you can move people anywhere within a 20' radius.
rilem 06-20-05, 02:15 PM	Scroll back a few pages — Caelic (I think it was him) had hit upon much the same thing (Changeline + Aberrant feats = Reach w/o penalty, among other things). I'm not sure if he applied the tactic to Snow's Gatling tripper, but there might be some other stuff in that thread you can use.
Elderich 06-20-05, 03:11 PM	Fighter-20: The "Gatling Chain Gun" Tripper http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=163005&page=4 And the last page (4?) has a post by me about a better weapon than the spiked chain.
lgw 06-20-05, 06:58 PM	i'm sorry, but as long as you stay medium, reach is +5 ft and not double range, as 5 ft is your base range. (also quite logical, as you may extend your body, but the weapons size stays the same.) though 25 ft reach isn't really bad :-)
IceFractal 06-20-05, 07:20 PM	I'm not so sure about that, because if it was the weapon's size that determined reach, then Monkey Grip would work, which I'm pretty sure it doesn't.
allenchan 06-20-05, 07:41 PM	i'm sorry, but as long as you stay medium, reach is +5 ft and not double range, as 5 ft is your base range. (also quite logical, as you may extend your body, but the weapons size stays the same.) though 25 ft reach isn't really bad :-) Sorry, but, what the hell are you talking about? Reach weapons are always double natural reach, not 'base' range. I've never even heard if base range. It doesn't exist as a term in dnd. If your natural reach increases, reach weapons double as per normal. Hence why Tiny creatures and smaller still have 0 reach even with reach weapons (0x2=0). This is addressed in the rules of the game articles, AoO's part 2
Lilt 06-20-05, 07:46 PM	I'm not so sure about that, because if it was the weapon's size that determined reach, then Monkey Grip would work, which I'm pretty sure it doesn't.How can you reach targets 20ft past how far your limbs strech with a 10-11ft chain? monkey-grip can be explained by saying that you can't effectively hit creatures further away because you don't have the nessecary swing. Kindof like how wielding a 100ft long stick (I'm sure magic could make it weightless) doesn't give you a 100ft reach. [edit] might be wrong, just checking. [edit 2]Yep, The feat in LoM definately states that it doubles reach when combined with a reach weapon and states that this means a reach weapon threatens 15-20ft away. I might question wether or not Morphic Reach from Wrshaper does the same thing, as it does not list the modification as one to 'natural reach'. I'd also question wether or not the changeling qualified for extend reach, or wether or not it would apply to attacks with antural weapons given the talk of pseudopods ETC, but it seems to say that the feat says that the creature's natural reach is increased by 5ft so it seems to fly.
CappyTheMule 06-20-05, 11:22 PM	Mageslayer I hold is an invaluable feat to any build with alot of reach, basically rendering spellcasters useless with in your range. Precise Swing from the Eberron Campaign Setting may also be helpful if your foes tend to get cover alot. You also have the Prereqs for Elusive Target, so you might as well take it.
lgw 06-21-05, 06:30 AM	SRD - Equipment Weapons (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/weapons.html) Reach Weapons: Glaives, guisarmes, lances, longspears, ranseurs, spiked chains, and whips are reach weapons. A reach weapon is a melee weapon that allows its wielder to strike at targets that aren’t adjacent to him or her. Most reach double the wielder’s natural reach, meaning that a typical Small or Medium wielder of such a weapon can attack a creature 10 feet away, but not a creature in an adjacent square. A typical Large character wielding a reach weapon of the appropriate size can attack a creature 15 or 20 feet away, but not adjacent creatures or creatures up to 10 feet away. allenchan... i think the rules are quite explicit, that weapons for medium creatures increase reach by 5 ft - and not some hillarious something of 20 ft (or is there a new pr class "weapon morpher" or something ?!) also, if you want to have a definition of appropriate, natural reach - the srd has one (bottom page) (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/movement.html)
thegreatbuddha 06-21-05, 06:48 AM	Reach Weapons: Glaives, guisarmes, lances, longspears, ranseurs, spiked chains, and whips are reach weapons. A reach weapon is a melee weapon that allows its wielder to strike at targets that aren’t adjacent to him or her. Most reach double the wielder’s natural reach, meaning that a typical Small or Medium wielder of such a weapon can attack a creature 10 feet away, but not a creature in an adjacent square. A typical Large character wielding a reach weapon of the appropriate size can attack a creature 15 or 20 feet away, but not adjacent creatures or creatures up to 10 feet away. Typical small or medium creatures have 5ft reach. Obviously, this guy does not. The only arguement you could make is common sense. Of course a 10ft chain can't be used to attack things 20ft beyond your normal reach, in real life. This is not real life, it's D&D, where common sense bows its head to things like magic and the RAW.
ancalimohtar 06-21-05, 06:50 AM	lgw is correct; when he originally said "base range" he meant "natural reach," which is set by character size and special features. A Medium spiked chain is going to extend a certain length regardless of how long you can make your arms, and so the build in the OP has 25' reach. Edit: thegreatbuddha, please read the SRD, through the link provided a couple posts above, and look at the table. Natural reach is determined by the type of CREATURE and SIZE you are. Most M creatures have 5' reach, though some have longer and some have shorter. That doesn't mean the few exceptions that exist all of a sudden double that extension with a spiked chain--remember, a M spiked chain is a M spiked chain is a M spiked chain. One more edit: The descriptions of Extended Reach and Morphic Reach do not change natural reach, only (actual) reach. I don't have RoE so I can't commend on the reach modification there.
thegreatbuddha 06-21-05, 06:58 AM	A Medium spiked chain is going to extend a certain length regardless of how long you can make your arms, and so the build in the OP has 25' reach. Inhuman Reach specifically states that using a reach weapon doubles your normal (not natural) reach. It goes on to list an example of a medium character with the feat being able to attack creatures 15-20t away with a long spear. That's a direct contradiction of your claim. So, like the original poster said, his normal reach is 20ft, doubled by a reach weapon to 40ft. EDIT: Read the Natural reach table. Interesting little footnote at the bottom of it. These values are typical for creatures of the indicated size. Some exceptions exist. A character with +15ft of reach is an exception. Either way, Inhuman reach doesn't mention natural reach at all, only normal reach.
lgw 06-21-05, 06:59 AM	i read that, yeah... the point is rather: a weapon with reach 20 ft is just much to big for a medium character, as it would be a normal, 2 handed weapon for a gargantum creature. by raw rules, you would have a -12 (if i remember correctly) on your attack role, for wilding an very, very oversized waepon - if allowed anyway. the typical medium weapon is made for a typical medium character with a typical 5 ft reach. any other weapons are custom made, and custom made is the point where you need dm approval and common sense, for sure, kicks in. game over. again, not to say that this build is bad - but you can not gain a greater reach then 20 ft (natural) / 25 ft (with chain) by this. but you could easily get 50 ft by having enlarge cast on you (maybe to it yourself from a wand) - because enlarge _does_ affect your equipment.
thegreatbuddha 06-21-05, 07:04 AM	If a reach weapon for a medium creature cannot extend reach more than 5ft, why does Inhuman Reach specifically mention a character with the feat and a longspear having a reach of 20ft? By RAW rules, you would have a medium reach weapon approximately 10ft long that added 20t of reach. Physically impossible? Yes RAW? Yes RAW > Laws of Reality
lgw 06-21-05, 08:18 AM	sorry, i dont have lords of madness (sadly) - so i cannot state if thats true or not ;-)
Elderich 06-21-05, 02:36 PM	the typical medium weapon is made for a typical medium character with a typical 5 ft reach. any other weapons are custom made, and custom made is the point where you need dm approval and common sense, for sure, kicks in. game over.The whip reach is 15Ft for medium characters. Not a custom weapon.
allenchan 06-21-05, 04:53 PM	i read that, yeah... the point is rather: a weapon with reach 20 ft is just much to big for a medium character, as it would be a normal, 2 handed weapon for a gargantum creature. Ahh.. I see your problem is a weapon's actual, realistic length. This is not supported by the rules. I've said it once, and I'll say it again. Logical and realism have no place here on the CO boards. The RAW often go against logic. House rule it all you want, but the rules are against you on this. It is always, always, always double(x2) not +5.
Zemyla 06-23-05, 12:48 PM	A kalashtar can also gain 20' unarmed reach, with Monk 5/Atavist 5 and the Aggressive quori personality.