Post/Author/DateTime	Post
The_Bishop 08-04-04, 01:27 PM	Recently a thread started regarding the destruction of a critter via ability damage and/or ability drain. I just wanted to start a thread that discusses the issue, as well as the best ways to optimize a character or party to do the same. I'll start the bidding with the (IMHO) broken Touch of Golden Ice (from BOED). This is very nasty at low levels when coupled monks or druids with natural attacks (low level because the save DC is 14). Any other thoughts on good ways to administer ability damage as opposed to HP damage (and characters optimized for such)? Thanks The_Bishop Based on comments below, I'm starting to c ount the ways... Effects that make one Exhausted and Fatigued should also be included. Strength - Ray of Enfeeblement, 1d6+1-5, save for none, minimum Str 1 (3.5 SRD) - Ray of Exhaustion (3.5 SRD) - Waves of Exhaustion (3.5 SRD) - Waves of Fatigue (3.5 SRD) - Bestow Curse: –6 decrease to an ability score (minimum 1) (3.5 SRD). Dexterity - Touch of Golden Ice: 1d4 on successful attack?, Fort DC 14 for none (BOED) - Lahms Finger Darts: Evil, augmentable to 5d4, Arcane (Source?) - Ray of Exhaustion (3.5 SRD) - Waves of Exhaustion (3.5 SRD) - Waves of Fatigue (3.5 SRD) - Bestow Curse: –6 decrease to an ability score (minimum 1) (3.5 SRD). Constitution - Rapier of Puncturing: 1d6, touch attack 3\day - Wounding: 1 Con on successful attack - Greater Wounding: 2 Con on successful attack - Dragon Lance: 1 Con on successful attack, PC lvl in Con on successful Crit, PERMANENT - Bestow Curse: –6 decrease to an ability score (minimum 1) (3.5 SRD). Intelligence - Touch of Idiocy (3.5 SRD) - Feeblemind (3.5 SRD) - Bestow Curse: –6 decrease to an ability score (minimum 1) (3.5 SRD). Wisdom - Bestow Curse: –6 decrease to an ability score (minimum 1) (3.5 SRD). Charisma - Ego Whip: 1d4, augmentable, psionic (3.5 SRD) - Feeblemind (3.5 SRD) - Bestow Curse: –6 decrease to an ability score (minimum 1) (3.5 SRD). Levels - Enervation: 1d4, no save, stackable? (3.5 SRD) - Energy Drain: 2d4, save for half? stackable? (3.5 SRD) - Undead (Vampires, Vampire Spawn, etc.) Subdual Damage - Subdual Substitution (Feat, BOED) Please add corrections, additions, and commentary below. Thanks
carnivore 08-04-04, 01:41 PM	most spls that reduce abilities from PHB only will lower abilities to a minimum of 1. psionics on the other hand go all the way to 0, check out the various psi attack modes that are now powers in XPH. also some wpn enhancements also do ability damage, put them (if possible) on ranged weapons....then reach out and touch someone.
EatFlan 08-04-04, 01:51 PM	a high level spell sword can do this: 2 stored spells in the sword = 2 enervations (1d4 neg lvls no save) Added 'twinned' metamagic feat to each so they go off 2x each. Keep that in your sword all day, just whip it out when you wanna nail someone. Cast true strike and beat away. 4-16 neg. levels w/no save allowed.
Enoch Van Garret 08-04-04, 01:59 PM	A lot of discussion has been centered around wounding weapons and the ability to kill a creature by reducing it to 0 con. Rapiers of puncturing, et cetera. Most of the discussion centers around combinations that don't allow a save or SR. As a player it's fun to speculate about these kinds of things, but as a DM I discourage it, for one simple reason - what's good for the goose is good for the gander. My players found out about this after they found out what happens when you mix time stop with forcecage, quickened antimagic field, and non-magical gaseous poisons. Luckily, they were saved by some quick thinking and a fair bit of NPC assistance, but I think they learned the lesson.
grey muse 08-04-04, 03:13 PM	Yeah, I don't know what they were thinking when they wrote Touch of Golden Ice. It needs a number of uses per day, or *something*. Carnivore is right about the XPH. Ego Whip is a second level power that does d4 Chr damage, save for half, and is augmentable. Strength of My Enemy is a 2nd level PsyWar power; while it only lasts one round per level, it makes one of your weapons deal 1 str damage per hit, and you temporarily gain the str as an enhancement bonus. No save, no SR -- nasty. And both of these are low level powers. A good party tactic would be to have a sorc with Ray of Enfeeblement blasting foes, then when they've taken several rays, have the PsyWar rush in to finish the job. I looked at going the Str damage route with Savage Species; shadows and wraiths both came to mind. But, in both cases, you only get one attack per round, and with a huge level adjustment. Not worth it, IMO. The spellsword enervation is nice, but it's really level drain, not ability damage. grey muse
EatFlan 08-04-04, 03:42 PM	what about a shadow dancer? don't they get shade companions over time that increase in power (HD) over time. Could that eventually lead to having strong shadows w/2+ attacks per round eacH? In that case couldn't you just have your shades pop out of the ground around your enemy, they all get a swipe at a touch attack, and hopefull you have a 0str enemy soon. a party w/2+ shadow dancers could have 5-6 shades right? thats pretty scarey.
ck2001wendt 08-04-04, 04:08 PM	A Modest Proposal: Bishop, why don´t you add a compendium feature in the foundation post, so we can keep track of all the different methods of ability drain. I think this would be a very useful resource for the Cha Op Board. For Example: Str -Ray of Enfeeblement, 1d6+1-5, save for none, minimum Str 1 Dex -Touch of Golden Ice: 1d4 on successful attack?, Fort DC 14 for none -Lahms Finger Darts: Evil, augmentable to 5d4, Arcane Con -Rapier of Puncturing: 1d6, touch attack 3\day -Wounding: 1 Con on successful attack -Greater Wounding: 2 Con on successful attack -Dragon Lance: 1 Con on successful attack, PC lvl in Con on successful Crit, PERMANENT Int -Touch of Idiocy -Feeblemind Wis Cha -Ego Whip: 1d4, augmentable, psionic Levels (do you want this to count?) -Enervation: 1d4, no save, stackable? -Energy Drain: 2d4, save for half? stackable? -Undead (Vampires, Vampire Spawn, etc.)
The_Bishop 08-04-04, 04:18 PM	Very good idea. I've never done so, but I'm happy to contribute. I think there are 2-3 ways of indexing it. First, the way you started, by Ability / Abilities affected. Second, by delivery method - Touch Spell, Ranged Touch Spell, On a Weapon (part of the weapon, applied poison, natural weapon attack), Spell (no attack roll required), No Save, No SR, etc. Third, by which type of character can use it (although this is tougher). Fourth, by type (Drain, Damage, Permanant). Is permanent different from drain? In addition, I think we need to be certain of what stacks with what (I recently saw a confusing discussion of this... but someone pointing to a ruling would be helpful). Further, we may wish to add sources of subdual damage to this list. They are similar effects, in many cases. Any thoughts/additions to this? The_Bishop
ck2001wendt 08-04-04, 05:39 PM	I would keep it simple. Start by just Indexing it by damage target (Str, Con), then put the second and fourth types of indexing in the individual descriptions...the list should be sufficiently small that multiple indexing shouldn´t be necessary. Lahm´s Finger Darts are from teh BoVD, BTW.
amoeba 08-04-04, 06:09 PM	feeblemind affects int and cha, not wis.
Remnant 08-04-04, 06:37 PM	Lets not forget about the cancer mage. PrC begins on BoVD, pg. 52 The class gains the following class abilities which effect ability scores: Contagion Poison Infected Wound In addition, the cancer mage becomes a host for every disease he comes in contact with, but suffers no effects from them beyond cosmetic ones. So, get him infected with Deathsong, contact, DC 25, damgage 1d8 Str 1d8 Dex, 1d8 con, incubation period 1 day, and have him spread the love. Of course, this method requires time, so it's no good for a quick kill. If you're brave, replace deathsong with Warp Touch, which is random but instantaneous. It's a mean disease though- it could do everything from turning a character to jelly to giving them a medusa's gaze attack. Not for the faint of heart. Poisons are fun as well...
amoeba 08-04-04, 07:02 PM	Your spread the love comment made me think of a succubus cancer mage.
AlienFromBeyond 08-04-04, 07:19 PM	Don't forget Marrowcrushing, which does 1 point of Con damage for a +3 bonus. It's advantage over Wounding is that it can affect creatures with Con scores that are immune to crits ;).
The_Bishop 08-04-04, 11:12 PM	Thanks for the info/corrections. Where is Marrowcrushing from? -The_Bishop
AlienFromBeyond 08-04-04, 11:19 PM	The BoVD.
ck2001wendt 08-05-04, 02:12 AM	Poisons are a really good idea....there are so many of them though it might just be worth it to list "Poison" under the specific abilities they effect, then reference books and page numbers...there are probably 20 different poisons that affect CHA.
grey muse 08-05-04, 07:11 AM	Yeah, and I'd hate to be the poor guy who gets hit by a dagger covered with *all* of them. :) A shadowdancer does get shadows, but no iterative attacks for higher hit dice with natural weapons. IIRC, the druid's Poison spell does d10/d10 Con, as a 4th? level. Do Marrowcrushing and Wounding stack? And a succubus cancer mage is a rather disturbing thought. Meh. grey muse
Blade2718 08-05-04, 07:21 AM	Nothing says that marrowcrushing and wounding don't stack. Throw in greater wounding for more dairy-product goodness.
Remnant 08-05-04, 12:04 PM	The poison spell is somewhat solid. 1d10 Con damage, save DC 10+.5(caster level)+wis mod. At 10th level, for instance, the save for a druid with 18 wis is 19. A good save at 10th level is +7, lets be kind and say the victim has +2 con modifier, for +9. Average d20 roll is 10.5, so average save is 19.5. The spell has a decent chance of working against even a good fort save with a con bonus at a comparable level. However, I prefer poisons that are harder to save against. Dragon Bile springs to mind, which does 3d6 str damgage, no secondary, DC 26, contact. Looking through my books, Gray whinnis is roughly on par with the poison spell with a DC of 20, 1d4 con damage, secondary paralysis, injury. Black lotus extract is DC 20, 3d6 con, secondary 3d6 con, contact. Also of note is colossal scorpion poison (which is just mean) DC 54, 2d8 str, 2d8 str, injury. You just need to reconcile how the user got the stuff in the first place. Vilestar is nice as well, DC 24, 2d6 str, 2d6 str contact- but the ability damage is vile, so natural healing won't occur. The victim will need to have the ability damage magically healed in a consecrated location.
Blue23 08-05-04, 02:58 PM	What source is Greater Wounding from? We had everyone mid-session flipping though books to find it. Thanks, =Blue
Enoch Van Garret 08-05-04, 03:22 PM	either fiend folio or monster manual 2. It's a special weapon type that either a demon or devil of a particular type uses. Rather difficult to find.
EatFlan 08-05-04, 03:28 PM	yeah it's a devil or a demon in the MM2 i do believe, its an assassin type. Its a guy in black squatting on a rock, there is also some firey lion demon on the page/picture. i think
Remnant 08-05-04, 03:33 PM	MMII, pg. 62 Greater Wounding: A wound inflicted by a weapon of greater wounding bleeds for 2 points of damage per round thereafter, in addition to the normal damage the weapon deals. Multiple wounds from the weapon result in cumulative bleeding loss (two wounds deal 4 points of damage per round and so on). The bleeding can be stopped only by a successful heal check DC 15 or the application of a cure spell or some other healing spell.
ck2001wendt 08-05-04, 03:50 PM	There is a druid spell in Masters of the Wild called "Slime Wave," which does Con damage based on the character´s facing (large characters take more)...particularly effective against Giants.