Post/Author/DateTime	Post
R2-DS 06-01-06, 06:21 PM	Ability Scores and Sub Ability Scores The D+D game uses six ability scores to represent a player character. These six abilities make up the physical and mental prowess (or lack thereof) of every creature in the game. Sometimes these 6 scores just aren’t enough. Fortunately if one harkens back to the days of 2nd Ed. D+D, and more specifically the players option book, Skills and Powers we can recall that each of the 6 core ability scores can be further divided into 2 Sub Ability scores. Each Sub ability score is like one side if the same coin, just a different aspect. Herein lies more than enough customization to satisfy even the most rabid munchkin. As with its 2nd Ed. Counterpart each ability score cannot exceed 2 points in either direction of the core ability it is derived from . For example: Jason rolls a 15 for his Barbarians constitution score. However Jason firmly believes that his barbarian is far more Fit than what a 15 score represents, so he records his CON (Fitness score ) as 17. Conversely this same barbarians CON (Health score) would now become 13. Using the descriptions of each Sub ability below Jason’s Barbarian would benefit from the bonus hit points of his greater Fitness score, but would have a slightly reduced FORT save bonus because of his reduced health score. STRENGTH: STAMINA determines muscle efficiency. Mechanic: Melee attack bonus. Skill Modifier: None MUSCLE measures the sheer power a character can exert at a moment's notice. Mechanic: Melee and thrown weapon bonus damage. Barbarians Rage Bonus Skill Modifier: Climb, Intimidate, Jump, Swim DEXTERITY: AIM. A character with a high Aim score might be an expert marksman or a sleight-of-hand artist. Mechanic: Ranged attack bonus, Initiative modifier Skill Modifier: Escape Artist, Open Lock, Pick Pocket, Use Rope BALANCE. A character with a high Balance score may be an acrobat or a tightrope walker. Mechanic: Reflex save bonus. Skill Modifier: Balance, Hide, Move Silently, Ride, Tumble CONSTITUTION: HEALTH. A character with a high Health score would seldom get sick and be little affected by allergies and other ailments. Mechanic: Fortitude save bonus. Skill Modifier: None FITNESS. A character with a high Fitness score has great endurance and can suffer more damage than other characters while continuing to function. Mechanic: Bonus hit points. Skill Modifier: Concentration INTELLIGENCE: REASON. This ability defines how well a character handles new information. A character with a high Reason score would be good at solving riddles and puzzles, and would be talented at using deductive, logical thinking. Mechanic: None Skill Modifier: Appraise, Decipher Script, Disable Device, Forgery, Read lips, Search KNOWLEDGE. This score is a measurement of the character's educational experiences-whether in a school or on the streets, his grasp of languages, and his memory capacity. A character with a high Knowledge score can speak many languages, knows something about several subjects, and can remember the slightest detail of a past event. Mechanic: Bardic Knowledge Bonus, Bonus spells (Wizard), Wizard spell save DC, Bonus Languages, Bonus skill points Skill Modifier: Alchemy, Craft, Knowledge (all), Scry, Spellcraft WISDOM: INTUITION. A character with a high Intuition score likely would be very perceptive and good at making educated guesses, and would be difficult to fool or lie to effectively. Mechanic: None Skill Modifier: Heal, Innuendo, Listen, Profession, Sense Motive, Spot, Survival WILLPOWER. This score gauges a character's strength of will, ability to resist magical forces, and sense of commitment to a cause. A character with a high Willpower would be difficult to harm with mind-affecting spells, could be quite stubborn, and would resist interrogation. Mechanic: Will save bonus, Divine spell caster (Cleric, Druid, Paladin, Ranger) bonus spells, Divine caster spell save DC, Monk’s AC bonus, Monk’s Quivering Palm Skill Modifier: None CHARISMA: LEADERSHIP. A character with a high Leadership often may be a group's leader, or at least its spokesman. Mechanic: Feint in combat bonus, Leadership Feat score, Paladins Divine Grace, Paladins Lay on Hands, Paladin’s Smite Evil Attack Bonus, Paladin’s Smite Evil Damage Bonus, Bard Bonus Spells, Bard Spell save DC, Sorcerer Bonus spells, Sorcerer spell save DC, Cleric/Paladin Turn Undead Check, Cleric/Paladin Turn Undead Damage, Druid/Ranger Wild Empathy Check Skill Modifier: Animal Empathy, Diplomacy, Gather information, Handle Animal, Intimidate, APPEARANCE. This determines the physical presence and attractiveness of the character. Mechanic: Npc Attitude/Reaction Adjustment Skill Modifier: Bluff, Disguise, Perform, Use Magic Device (I am currently using this with my regular gaming group and they love it!)
Seerow 06-01-06, 07:06 PM	This seems clunky to me. At least as is you have everything grouped in together. With your changes you're trying to specialize things... but not everything has a group that fits it, even when broken down, so you have specialties with things that don't fit it. Then you have some that are utterly useless. Strength: I guess this one is sort of alright. I don't like the idea of one stat going to hit and the other one controlling everything else... and realize it nerfs the barbarian a bit. Now instead of +2/+2 he only gets +2 damage. Dexterity: Balance is good only for a skill monkey. Thus everyone gains a +1 bonus to their ranged attacks innitiative and AC. Constitution: Okay you just gave all casters an extra +1 HP/level, as Health is nothing to them, and they can always use the concentration and HP bonus. Hell most characters would give up a +1 Fort Save for +1 HP/level. I can think of very few who wouldn't. Intelligence: Congratulations, you gave all Wizards a +2 to their spellcasting stat, and made the "Reason" category absolutely useless to anyone who isn't a Rogue. Wisdom: Same problem as intelligence, you give the Clerics a +2 bonus to their spellcasting at the cost of what... a bonus to a few class skills? Cha: Same problem as the last two, except even worse. You gave Appearence a few skills, one of which doesn't even fit! Tell me, how is how good you look going to affect your UMD check?
X-Codes 06-01-06, 07:15 PM	Doesn't this strike you as needlessly overcomplicated?
catharz 06-01-06, 07:21 PM	As 'Codes says, you're basically trying to get something for nothing. The D&D stat system won't be improved by making it into a bookeeping nightmare. This isn't "optimization" in the normal sense at all, but if you want to actually improve the way D&D stats work, you could at least try to make them less overlapping. For example, both Charisma and Wisdom are currently defined as a character's 'force of personality.' Charisma influences sorcerer casting, wisdom influences will saves, and so forth. There isn't really any logic to it. Similarly, changes in wisdom and intelligence are aften both used to represent 'smart' characters, and there really isn't much of a set logic to how it is done. Try untangling that first, then see about making things more complicated. The best system I've seen involves only four stats.
gkp79 06-01-06, 07:41 PM	I think this system could work very well, but I would do more to balance to 2 side of each stat. Also, I would tie EVERY game mechanic to one half of the stat or the other. No game mechanics should use the base (middling) score anymore. The one exception (maybe) could be made for the spell casting stats. Because the spell casting prime stat is so very important for casters it might be best to reduce min/maxing here and just let that use the basic normal stat for spell casting purposes. For instance Stamina can be bonus to hit and Muscle can be bonus to damage. Aim can be bonus to ranged and initiative, Balance can be bonus to AC. And so on....
catharz 06-01-06, 08:02 PM	For instance Stamina can be bonus to hit and Muscle can be bonus to damage. Aim can be bonus to ranged and initiative, Balance can be bonus to AC. And so on.... But what does "stamina" have to do with being able to hit things? Why should acting quickly be tied to something called "Aim"??? For that matter, why would using magic items be based on appearance? Why would sorcerer casting be based on leadership ability?
Caelic 06-01-06, 08:05 PM	This looks AWFULLY like the old second edition "Skills and Powers" stat system. I'll give it this much: it's more balanced. In S&P, Strength was divided into Muscle and Stamina. Muscle gave you attack bonus and damage. Stamina gave you carrying capacity. Guess which one most players went for?
Lilt 06-01-06, 08:14 PM	The system is clunky, but I have seen systems like it (albeit in different games) adding to the game when players and DMs don't mind a bit of extra bookkeeping. In this case, however, I'd have to agree with Seerow in saying that say it has been implemented poorly. Casters get it far too easy. If you want to make it balanced then make them choose between spells and save DCs. Save DCs and bonus spells should be on different sides of intelligence. Maybe call them Recall and Calculation, where recall covers skill points, knowledge skills, languages, and bonus spells whilst calculation covers skill points, save DCs, and all non-knowledge skills On the wisdom split, shift spells per day and AC bonus over to intuition. Charisma is just plain badly split. Perhaps consider Internal and External Charisma. Internal affects things like bonus spells, turning checks per day, Divine Grace, amongst other things whilst external affects things like save DCs, smite bonuses, leadership, and so on.
gkp79 06-01-06, 08:16 PM	The system is clunky, but I have seen systems like it (albeit in different games) adding to the game when players and DMs don't mind a bit of extra bookkeeping. In this case, however, I'd have to agree with Seerow in saying that say it has been implemented poorly. Casters get it far too easy. If you want to make it balanced then make them choose between spells and save DCs. Save DCs and bonus spells should be on different sides of intelligence. Maybe call them Recall and Calculation, where recall covers skill points, knowledge skills, languages, and bonus spells whilst calculation covers skill points, save DCs, and all non-knowledge skills On the wisdom split, shift spells per day and AC bonus over to intuition. Charisma is just plain badly split. Perhaps consider Internal and External Charisma. Internal affects things like bonus spells, turning checks per day, Divine Grace, amongst other things whilst external affects things like save DCs, smite bonuses, leadership, and so on. Great suggestions man.
PhoenixInferno 06-01-06, 08:57 PM	Shouldn't this go in the homebrew rules boards?
R2-DS 06-01-06, 10:24 PM	This looks AWFULLY like the old second edition "Skills and Powers" stat system. I'll give it this much: it's more balanced. In S&P, Strength was divided into Muscle and Stamina. Muscle gave you attack bonus and damage. Stamina gave you carrying capacity. Guess which one most players went for? It is. I only tried to give it a 3.5 redeux. However judging by the remainder of responses I'd say no one else remembers that this "was" infact a part of the game at one time. I'd go a little further and say that those who responded probably havent played the game before 3rd Ed. and subsequently 3.5. Personally I thought it was a good stab at trying to provide players and GM's with more options. It's no worse than any other suggestion and homebrew out there. If you dont like what I've presented than dont use it. I took some time and effort to broaden my groups gaming experience, and they're happy with it. Besides isnt that what its about? Having fun? I thought so........ PS. Forgot about carrying capacity. I'll have to update that.