Ability scores, objects and feats [Archive] - Wizards Community

Ability scores, objects and feats [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Ade
09-21-05, 08:45 AM I beg your pardon if I ask something that has already been discussed before in another thread.

When a feat has a prerequisite like "Cha nn", could it be possible to meet this requirement using an object?
I try to explain better: in the Epic Level Handbook (only to cite one example), I can read that the sample NPC Bard (page 310) has a natural Charisma score of 22, uses a Cloak of Charisma +6, and chooses the feat Epic Inspiration (requirement: Cha 25).

I've always thought that this kind of requirements should be met with natural scores, but this example drives me out. If the cloak is removed, does the NPC lose the benefits from this feat?
If this is true and works like a rule, what happens with a Headband of Intellect? The charater obtains extra skill points, and loses them if the object is removed?

I think this is too easy and illogic, but the manuals seem to show I am wrong.
colm_l
09-21-05, 10:11 AM [SIZE=1]I
I've always thought that this kind of requirements should be met with natural scores, but this example drives me out. If the cloak is removed, does the NPC lose the benefits from this feat?
If this is true and works like a rule, what happens with a Headband of Intellect? The charater obtains extra skill points, and loses them if the object is removed?

An enhancement bonus never gives a permanant effect to a character.

You can use them to qualify for feats/classes etc. but whenever your ability is below the required level - you don't get any of the benefits of the feats/classes.

Manuals are different - they give an inherent bonus
oxybe
09-21-05, 10:20 AM um... that doesnt seem right at all.

ill have to check Epic level handbook later, but my playgroups always used natural scores to reach feats. even if you could use magic items to reach feats, the dm could just take away said magic item away (through an npc stealing it or destroying it outright) and you would loose the benefit of the feat. or he could use rule 0 and outlaw magic items to gain feats. im pretty sure this was clearified somewhere else.

i think the manuals he's talking about are the ELH and PHB... not the items the manuals of health, exercise & action
Finglas Leaflock
09-21-05, 10:23 AM Colm_l has it right--but I just wanted to add, since Ade brought it up, that a Headband of Intellect could be used for gaining skill points in 3.0, but that 3.5 disallows it. So the glass-half-full part of that is you don't lose skill points if you take the headband off (of if it's destroyed or whatever), but the glass-half-empty part is that you dont' get them to begin with. :)
Ade
09-21-05, 10:50 AM An enhancement bonus never gives a permanant effect to a character.
You can use them to qualify for feats/classes etc. but whenever your ability is below the required level - you don't get any of the benefits of the feats/classes.
Manuals are different - they give an inherent bonus

I know the difference between enhancement and inherent bonus, and I agree with you.

But what about the example of the Cloak of Charisma? It's Enhancement bonus, but according to the Epic Level Handbook, it allows a bard with a lower natural charisma score to meet a higher prerequisite...

Anyway, thank you all!
hogarth
09-21-05, 11:53 AM There was a thread recently where a poster was wondering where it says one can (or can't) qualify for feats/classes with temporary modifiers. One poster mentioned the Epic Level Handbook example.

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=497857
AviLazar
09-21-05, 12:03 PM Yes you can use items that incrase stats, give feats, and skills, etc. to qualify for other feats, classes, etc.

However, if you lose these items (for whatever reason) you lose the benefit's of whatever you previously qualified for.

In this case, if that epic level bard lost his cloak, he would lose access to Epic Inspiration.

As said before, items of intellect do not give bonus skill points. They do increase your spellcasting capabilities, increase the bonus to skills (i.e. an item which gives you +2 int, will give you +1 bonus to all of your INT based skills), increase other class abilities (like the precision damage from Swashbuckler).

I believe you cannot use spells (i.e. "I cast bear's endurance and have a 20 CON, so now I qualify for 'Roll with it'"). If you could make the spell permenant (i.e. permenancy) then you could use it to qualify...but again, if you lose the benefit of the spell then you lose anything that requires the 20 Con, in this case "roll with it".

Someone mentioned Rule 0...well yea Rule 0 breaks everything, I believe the OP was referring to official ruling. He didn't necessarily ask for "best practices" :)
Ade
09-21-05, 12:16 PM Thank you all.
All clear.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ade 09-21-05, 08:45 AM	I beg your pardon if I ask something that has already been discussed before in another thread. When a feat has a prerequisite like "Cha nn", could it be possible to meet this requirement using an object? I try to explain better: in the Epic Level Handbook (only to cite one example), I can read that the sample NPC Bard (page 310) has a natural Charisma score of 22, uses a Cloak of Charisma +6, and chooses the feat Epic Inspiration (requirement: Cha 25). I've always thought that this kind of requirements should be met with natural scores, but this example drives me out. If the cloak is removed, does the NPC lose the benefits from this feat? If this is true and works like a rule, what happens with a Headband of Intellect? The charater obtains extra skill points, and loses them if the object is removed? I think this is too easy and illogic, but the manuals seem to show I am wrong.
colm_l 09-21-05, 10:11 AM	[SIZE=1]I I've always thought that this kind of requirements should be met with natural scores, but this example drives me out. If the cloak is removed, does the NPC lose the benefits from this feat? If this is true and works like a rule, what happens with a Headband of Intellect? The charater obtains extra skill points, and loses them if the object is removed? An enhancement bonus never gives a permanant effect to a character. You can use them to qualify for feats/classes etc. but whenever your ability is below the required level - you don't get any of the benefits of the feats/classes. Manuals are different - they give an inherent bonus
oxybe 09-21-05, 10:20 AM	um... that doesnt seem right at all. ill have to check Epic level handbook later, but my playgroups always used natural scores to reach feats. even if you could use magic items to reach feats, the dm could just take away said magic item away (through an npc stealing it or destroying it outright) and you would loose the benefit of the feat. or he could use rule 0 and outlaw magic items to gain feats. im pretty sure this was clearified somewhere else. i think the manuals he's talking about are the ELH and PHB... not the items the manuals of health, exercise & action
Finglas Leaflock 09-21-05, 10:23 AM	Colm_l has it right--but I just wanted to add, since Ade brought it up, that a Headband of Intellect could be used for gaining skill points in 3.0, but that 3.5 disallows it. So the glass-half-full part of that is you don't lose skill points if you take the headband off (of if it's destroyed or whatever), but the glass-half-empty part is that you dont' get them to begin with. :)
Ade 09-21-05, 10:50 AM	An enhancement bonus never gives a permanant effect to a character. You can use them to qualify for feats/classes etc. but whenever your ability is below the required level - you don't get any of the benefits of the feats/classes. Manuals are different - they give an inherent bonus I know the difference between enhancement and inherent bonus, and I agree with you. But what about the example of the Cloak of Charisma? It's Enhancement bonus, but according to the Epic Level Handbook, it allows a bard with a lower natural charisma score to meet a higher prerequisite... Anyway, thank you all!
hogarth 09-21-05, 11:53 AM	There was a thread recently where a poster was wondering where it says one can (or can't) qualify for feats/classes with temporary modifiers. One poster mentioned the Epic Level Handbook example. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=497857
AviLazar 09-21-05, 12:03 PM	Yes you can use items that incrase stats, give feats, and skills, etc. to qualify for other feats, classes, etc. However, if you lose these items (for whatever reason) you lose the benefit's of whatever you previously qualified for. In this case, if that epic level bard lost his cloak, he would lose access to Epic Inspiration. As said before, items of intellect do not give bonus skill points. They do increase your spellcasting capabilities, increase the bonus to skills (i.e. an item which gives you +2 int, will give you +1 bonus to all of your INT based skills), increase other class abilities (like the precision damage from Swashbuckler). I believe you cannot use spells (i.e. "I cast bear's endurance and have a 20 CON, so now I qualify for 'Roll with it'"). If you could make the spell permenant (i.e. permenancy) then you could use it to qualify...but again, if you lose the benefit of the spell then you lose anything that requires the 20 Con, in this case "roll with it". Someone mentioned Rule 0...well yea Rule 0 breaks everything, I believe the OP was referring to official ruling. He didn't necessarily ask for "best practices" :)
Ade 09-21-05, 12:16 PM	Thank you all. All clear.