Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ChristopherGroves 01-31-07, 08:51 AM	So, looking at the abjurant champion ... you need a BAB of +5, combat casting and 1st level arcane spells ... plus proficiency with one martial weapon. Easily enough obtained. It advances arcane casting ... ok. Abjurant Armor ... hmm ... bonus to abjuration spells armor or shield bonus ... well we all know we'd be happier if it applied to other bonuses, but we can live with that. One thing it doesn't say here is that it applies to arcane spells only or the class you advance w/ your ab. champ levels. Extended Abjuration ... double the duration of all abjuration spells cast. Again, no specifications on arcane/divine. Ok .... Swift Abjuration ... 1/2 class level ... also no restriction on arcane divine ... Arcane Boost ... well the title says "arcane" and it says you can burn "arcane energy" so I think letting this apply to divine spells may be a bit of a stretch. Martial Arcanist ... so when I kick off Divine Power my arcane CL = character level. Bueno. And really, you can/could use Divine Power to pre-qualify for the class (you'd lose PrC benefits when you didn't have the BAB required) ... and since BAB advances quickly w/ Abj. Champ, you're good. I don't quite have a build spec'd out yet but some sort of mess 5 / ur priest 2 / ab-champ 5 / theurge 8 is what is in my brain. Order would be tricky, but that should net you 9th level spells (divine) with decent caster level and something in the teens for arcane with decent caster level too, enhanced by BAB. A CHA driven caster would be best I think for the base arcane, with the rest of the mess getting you the spells you need/want.
FriendlyFrog 01-31-07, 09:12 AM	Hmm, this is a fun idea! How about Bamboo spirit folk Swashbuckler 1/Wizard 4/Ur-priest 2/Arcane hierophant 8/Abjurant champion 5 for a build? It would give BAB 15 and 9th level arcane and divine spells.
VonRichthofen 01-31-07, 10:36 AM	Is there a 3.5 version of Spirit Folk? Unless there is, you can hardly name the AC PrC broken for combining material that wasn't supposed to be used in conjunction, basically. A lenient DM might allow for this, a strict one won't (unless BSF is 3.5 and I am all wrong ;) )
FriendlyFrog 01-31-07, 01:45 PM	Is there a 3.5 version of Spirit Folk? Unless there is, you can hardly name the AC PrC broken for combining material that wasn't supposed to be used in conjunction, basically. A lenient DM might allow for this, a strict one won't (unless BSF is 3.5 and I am all wrong ;) ) OA got updated in Dragon magazine, but I haven't read the issue, so I can't be completely sure if Bamboo spirit folk still has Trackless step. I've seen others use it with their builds, though, so I assumed they do. And 3.0 material could still be used in a 3.5 game, unless there's an update to it. Using Arcane hierophant hardly brakes anything anyway, it just makes the build a little more optimal than it would be with Mystic theurge instead.
teshen 01-31-07, 04:54 PM	Hmm, this is a fun idea! How about Bamboo spirit folk Swashbuckler 1/Wizard 4/Ur-priest 2/Arcane hierophant 8/Abjurant champion 5 for a build? It would give BAB 15 and 9th level arcane and divine spells. Your missing an animal companion for Arcane hierophant unless Bamboo spirit folk get one as a racial ability... since I don't remember much about the spirit folk I could be wrong though. And there is a variation of them in one of the "newer" Faerun books. I don't remember which one though.
FriendlyFrog 01-31-07, 05:00 PM	Your missing an animal companion for Arcane hierophant unless Bamboo spirit folk get one as a racial ability... since I don't remember much about the spirit folk I could be wrong though. And there is a variation of them in one of the "newer" Faerun books. I don't remember which one though. Arcane hierophant doesn't require animal companion, you just won't get any benefit of the Companion familiar class feature without one. There are Mountain and River spirit folk in Unapproachable east, but no Bamboo.
Rhonin the Big 01-31-07, 05:44 PM	In my sig you will find my personal favorite arcane "warcaster" build, their names are Gemini. Look under Rhonin's Builds for my big multiclassing spellcasters. Gemini easily has BaB +17, descent HP and 9th level spells. We even have some class ability synergy going on.
teshen 01-31-07, 06:08 PM	Arcane hierophant doesn't require animal companion, you just won't get any benefit of the Companion familiar class feature without one. There are Mountain and River spirit folk in Unapproachable east, but no Bamboo. Ah. My mistake. Well, as for the no bamboo, there is always 'if it hasn't been updated, it's still good' philosophy... but that's already been mentioned as well.
Shlik 01-31-07, 06:56 PM	I think it is an excellent find for dual casting builds. A Sorcerer 4/Mindbender 1/Ur Priest 2/Mystic Theurge OR Arcane Heirophant 4/Abjurant Champion 5/Mystic Theurge OR Arcane Heirophant 4 seems like some fun. Sorcerer for CHA synergy for DMMcheese. Would practised spell caster give you the +4 bonus on top of Abjurant Champion's BAB as CL?
EyeontheMountain 01-31-07, 07:11 PM	And really, you can/could use Divine Power to pre-qualify for the class (you'd lose PrC benefits when you didn't have the BAB required) ... and since BAB advances quickly w/ Abj. Champ, you're good. If you have a DM that lets a short-duration spell let you qualify for a prestige class I hope you start looking for a new DM ASAP.
ChristopherGroves 01-31-07, 07:24 PM	You mean a spell that has a duration of 24 hours, unless dispelled? Really, it's a moot point - all of the suggested builds need none of that trickery. Whatever 5 / Ur Priest 2 / Theurge-thing 2 then a mix of AbChamp 5 and Thuerge-thing until you're done.
ChristopherGroves 01-31-07, 07:24 PM	The real question is whether or not a persisted divine spell with double duration would be two days. Not sure how extended, persisted works ...
dirkformica 01-31-07, 09:49 PM	Hasn't it been ruled that metamagic affects spells in the most beneficial way unless otherwise stated? (Note: I don't have an official reference for this.)
ophanimx 02-21-07, 12:49 PM	I was thinking of using ur-Priest with Abjurant Champion, too. I was trying to figure out a way to qualify for Abjurant Champion at level 6, so the build would look something like: X 5/Abjurant Champion 5/ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 8. I don't think there's a way to do it like that, though.
ruff0126 02-21-07, 01:31 PM	ophanmix your x 5 in the beginning could be duskblade not perfect but do able and very surviveable a low levels
ophanimx 02-21-07, 11:02 PM	This would never fly in a real game. LE Human Wizard 3/Monk 1/Bard 1/ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 8/Abjurant Champion 5. 9th level divine spells, but only 8th level arcane spells. Divine Power gets both BAB and the wizard caster level to 20. With Practiced Spellcaster and assuming MT progresses ur-Priest caster levels fully, the ur-Priest has a caster level of 18 (10 ur-Priest + 1.5 wizard + .5 bard + 2.5 abjurant champion, round down) before a bead of karma. With all your buffs, you should almost always be able to hit with a flurry.
epifreak 02-22-07, 02:57 AM	This would never fly in a real game. LE Human Wizard 3/Monk 1/Bard 1/ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 8/Abjurant Champion 5. 9th level divine spells, but only 8th level arcane spells. Divine Power gets both BAB and the wizard caster level to 20. With Practiced Spellcaster and assuming MT progresses ur-Priest caster levels fully, the ur-Priest has a caster level of 18 (10 ur-Priest + 1.5 wizard + .5 bard + 2.5 abjurant champion, round down) before a bead of karma. With all your buffs, you should almost always be able to hit with a flurry. Emphasis mine. You're both chaotic and lawful, there, bud.
MystErikEry 02-22-07, 04:16 AM	He becomes nonlawful to become a bard, then becomes Lawful again afterwards for other reasons: Ex-Bards: A bard who becomes lawful in alignment cannot progress in levels as a bard, though he retains all his bard abilities. Ex-Monks: A monk who becomes nonlawful cannot gain new levels as a monk but retains all monk abilities.
Balthanon 02-22-07, 07:25 AM	Hasn't it been ruled that metamagic affects spells in the most beneficial way unless otherwise stated? (Note: I don't have an official reference for this.) If that were the case, an empowered maximized fireball would probably do 90 damage rather than 60 + 5d6.
ophanimx 02-22-07, 01:06 PM	Emphasis mine. You're both chaotic and lawful, there, bud. He becomes chaotic and joins a band when his parents don't let him stay up late at night?
Rhonin the Big 02-22-07, 01:29 PM	He's a monk, not Chris Griffin.
epifreak 02-22-07, 05:50 PM	He's a monk, not Chris Griffin. So he becomes chaotic and joins a band when his abbot won't let him stay up late at night?
fnord 02-22-07, 06:39 PM	Why the Bard level at all? Monk you need for saves, but why not take the 4th level of Wizard instead and avoid the issue (and incidentally get 9th level arcane spells).
ophanimx 02-22-07, 07:53 PM	Why the Bard level at all? Monk you need for saves, but why not take the 4th level of Wizard instead and avoid the issue (and incidentally get 9th level arcane spells). Because one of ur-Priest's prerequisites is a high will save. 3 levels of Wizard is still 3 or 4 short. Monk's chosen because, hey, monk's neat. Bard's chosen to add to the ur-priest caster level and let you take Perform: Air Guitar. .. what? I said this was a character that wouldn't ever see the light of day.
fnord 02-22-07, 09:51 PM	Because one of ur-Priest's prerequisites is a high will save. 3 levels of Wizard is still 3 or 4 short. Monk's chosen because, hey, monk's neat. Bard's chosen to add to the ur-priest caster level and let you take Perform: Air Guitar. But you only need one or the other. Ur-Priest requires +3 Will/+3 Fort. Wizard 4 gives you +4/+1, and Monk gives +2/+2, giving you +6/+3, meeting the requirement. And another level of Wizard adds to Ur-Priest CL just as much (though not, admittedly, to Perform:Air Guitar).
dirkformica 02-22-07, 10:18 PM	Wasn't there a build experiment going for Fochlucan Lyrist that used the Savage Bard variant from Unearthed Arcana? The Savage Bard has both Fort and Will as good saves, so it would qualify for Ur-Priest on its own, and as a 1 level dip with Wizard you'd get the required saves as well as Bardic Knowledge for potential FL use. Speaking of requirements for FL, would Perform: Air Guitar be considered a String Instrument? Edit: Savage Bard also gives you Bluff as a class skill and +1 effective Ur Priest Caster Level.