Post/Author/DateTime	Post
bigevill 10-13-06, 03:59 PM	I need to build a 10th level character for a game I will play, and I was looking at abjurant champion. Looks awfully tough to me. I was thinking this type of build: fighter 4, wizard 2, abjurant champion 4. Obviously I woul dtake AjCh 5 at 11th level. What kind of feats would you guys throw on this class build? I was thinking about improved counterspell and such......
LogicNinja 10-13-06, 06:47 PM	I'd go with less fighter, more wizard. Spellcasting is better than pretty much anything else you can get in D&D. Improved Counterspell is fairly useless without taking Reactive Counterspell as well--and even if you do take both, counterspelling is a very niche role, and an odd choice for a gish (who should be on the front lines, buffed up and thwacking people).
bigevill 10-13-06, 06:54 PM	you know what? I was thinking that the abjurant champion gave bonuses to dispell checks. I dont know why I was, but I was. However you have to have a BaB of +5 to take a level of this PrC, and I will never reach 20th level in this game so I wanted to get into it as fast as I can which is why I went fighter 4. With this build I cast as 6 level and fight as 9th in a 10th level character. I am sure I can do better, but I want the spell casting for defense and boost, so I am not too concernd with getting max level spells. I guess once I get 5th level in the PrC I will be able to quicken dispell magics for free so that is good.
ninjarabbit 10-13-06, 07:37 PM	battlesorcerer15/abjurantchamp5, 16 BAB and 20 CL
FriendlyFrog 10-13-06, 08:03 PM	you know what? I was thinking that the abjurant champion gave bonuses to dispell checks. The Abjuration version of the Master specialist from the same book improves dispelling.
X-Codes 10-13-06, 09:33 PM	battlesorcerer15/abjurantchamp5, 16 BAB and 20 CL Thats so misleading. Battle Sorcerer is the crappiest sorcerer variant in the game tacked on to the crappiest class in the game save Fighter. Plugging it is bad karma. Illumian w/ IS:Krau Wizard 4/Warblade 1/Eldrich Knight 2/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldrich Knight +8 18 BAB, 18 CL, good all-around saves with more than 2 9th level spells.
Taeldrin Laesrash 10-13-06, 11:04 PM	What are the prerequisites? I think replacing the second fighter level with the 5th AC level is the way to go.
X-Codes 10-13-06, 11:07 PM	What are the prerequisites? I think replacing the second fighter level with the 5th AC level is the way to go. It requires BAB +5, proficiency with one martial weapon, some skills, and a small amount of spellcasting that I don't recall currently.
Rokku 10-13-06, 11:12 PM	Replace Eldritch Knight with Phantom Knight (Five Nations) if you're in Eberron -- or if your GM will just plain let you.
X-Codes 10-14-06, 12:35 AM	Replace Eldritch Knight with Phantom Knight (Five Nations) if you're in Eberron -- or if your GM will just plain let you. Hmm. I'm the only one that suggested Eldrich Knight... So you must be talking to me. My build doesn't qualify for Knight Phantom. I don't really care that it doesn't, either, because the majority of the benefits of the class are somewhat lost on that build.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 10-14-06, 01:37 AM	Wait a second, when did the sorcerer become the second crappiest class? Last I checked, sorcerers were a major source of ownage. All ya gotta do is say: I can cast off the sor-wiz spell list and you've instantly catapulted yourself to a grade A class. The fact that they cast off of charisma (the best stat in the game -- for proof see the X stat to Y bonus thread) and have a bunch of spell slots is purely gravy.
Phoenix00 10-14-06, 01:45 AM	Wait a second, when did the sorcerer become the second crappiest class? Sorcerer isn't a bad class, its a full caster thus a great class. But when compared to other full casters it isn't a good class. Last I checked, sorcerers were a major source of ownage. All ya gotta do is say: I can cast off the sor-wiz spell list and you've instantly catapulted yourself to a grade A class. The fact that they cast off of charisma (the best stat in the game -- for proof see the X stat to Y bonus thread) and have a bunch of spell slots is purely gravy. Cha is actually the worst statistic for a relatively "pure" class. Cha is a great statistic though if you do alot of multiclassing. But since almost all of those multiclassing options do not progress your sorcerer spellcasting it isn't that good of stat to base off your spellcasting stat. Cha is a great stat for divine casters due to all the connected abilities to turning attempts, prestige paladin etc. Same thing for melee classes.
X-Codes 10-14-06, 01:50 AM	Wait a second, when did the sorcerer become the second crappiest class? Last I checked, sorcerers were a major source of ownage. All ya gotta do is say: I can cast off the sor-wiz spell list and you've instantly catapulted yourself to a grade A class. The fact that they cast off of charisma (the best stat in the game -- for proof see the X stat to Y bonus thread) and have a bunch of spell slots is purely gravy. Sorcerers have retarded spellcasting (in the literal sense), too few spells known, and too few "expendable" levels to be worth it in my book. Plus, Charisma Synergy costs caster levels. Picking up a secondary Charisma-Based caster from a PrC is better. Even if you disagree with my lack of respect for a Sorcerer, plugging the Battle Sorcerer is still bad Karma as it exacerbates the existing problems with the Sorcerer.
Lord_of_Omnipotence 10-14-06, 02:20 AM	A build i would suggest would be Wizard5/KnightPhantom3/AbjurantChampion2 BAB of 7 and CL of 9 at 10th level. As you gain levels, finish up the abjurant champion prestige class then finish up knight phantom. This will grant you BAB of 17 and CL 19 at 20th level. As a tip, never take fighter levels when making a gish build, as they do not advance your spellcasting.
X-Codes 10-14-06, 04:26 AM	A build i would suggest would be Wizard5/KnightPhantom3/AbjurantChampion2 BAB of 7 and CL of 9 at 10th level. As you gain levels, finish up the abjurant champion prestige class then finish up knight phantom. This will grant you BAB of 17 and CL 19 at 20th level. As a tip, never take fighter levels when making a gish build, as they do not advance your spellcasting. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Knight Phantom requires Martial Weapon Proficiency with all weapons?
Phoenix00 10-14-06, 04:34 AM	Wizard5/KnightPhantom3/AbjurantChampion2 doesn't work, for you need a skill of 4 ride, and the profiency in all martial weapons. You can buy the skills cross class, but you still haven't fixed the profiency in all martial weapon bit.
Nylkran 10-14-06, 05:40 AM	Take the Militia feat from Players Guide to Fearun, it grants proficiency with all Martial Weapons.
FriendlyFrog 10-14-06, 08:04 AM	Outsider type gives proficiency with all weapons. Neraphs are common, but I personally think that the Otherwordly regional feat from PGtF is the best way.
Skadrian 10-14-06, 08:53 AM	so you only need a regional feat from fearun and a class from eberon to be slightly better. I still like eldritch knight, it gives a bonus feat and doesnt require one, and gishes like feats
Lord_of_Omnipotence 10-14-06, 01:14 PM	Yes, the posters above had the right idea. Either use the militia feat, the otherworldly feat, or play an outsider (such as an aasimar 0 or a tiefling 0). Buying ride cross class is easy, given the huge number of skill points your character is going to have due to his or her high int score. And if your DM doesn't allow knight phantom because of the special requirement, eldritch knight works almost as well. The HP difference isn't too significant, and you can make up for the armor by simply wearing a twilight mithral chain shirt, which has 0 ASF.
Repeekluos 10-14-06, 02:10 PM	Armor isnt an issue with the abjurant champion. His AC with Mage Armor, and Shield alone will be very high.
iconoplast 10-14-06, 02:33 PM	Mage Armor isn't an Abjuration spell, sadly, so he doesn't get his bonus there.
Repeekluos 10-14-06, 02:40 PM	That's funny, because that is the spell that the example uses to get a +9 armor bonus. It also lists mage armor in the ability's description.
Reiner 10-14-06, 03:01 PM	There is only one Abjuration spell in the PHB and spell compendium that adds an AC bonus. Shield. Clearly its an editing/WotC stupidity error. Unfortunately, less errata, its a DM call type thing. I'd definately say it should apply to armor and shield bonus spells, but still, thats just what I would rule in my game.
Sang-Drax 10-15-06, 01:35 AM	Even if the bonus doesn't apply to mage armor, it's still an incredible Gish PrC. I completely disagree on the no-fighter matter, however. The maxed d10 at 1st level is quite handy, specially at low levels, and, by picking Militia, you start with 2 feats less than your ordinary fighter/wizard gish. As for the Knight Phantom vs. Eldritch Knight issue, the armored casting ability from KP makes it quite appealing, but, if your DM rules that Abjurant Champion's ability do apply to mage armor, it gets less interesting. However, the spell Gold Dragonmail from Champions of Valor creates a +1 mithril full plate for 1 h/level for a 3rd level Conj [creation] spell, same category of mage amor. It's just slightly better than Greater Mage Armor - 3 AC points higher, but it reduces your speed and it doesn't protect against incorporeal touch attacks. At first glance, it doesn't seem a good choice, but being able to cast spells in armor might be good if you find some really good armor. I'd still take EK, though. A plain Fig 1/Wiz 5/Spellsword 1/Eldritch Knight 8/Abjurant Champion 5 is quite effective, netting you +17 BAB, caster level 18th, Fort +12, Ref +4, Will +12. Crappy Ref saves as your average Gish build. If you think that Fig1/Wiz5 is still a weak start for a meleer, go Fig2/Wiz4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/EK 8 instead. That will net you BAB +18 and CL 17th. This one's better at low levels, but worse on the long run. I'm assuming you don't have access to Tome of Battle. If you do, Jade Phoenix Mage is just THE way to go. In this case, I like Warblade 2/Wizard 4/Jade Pheonix Mage 9/Abjurant Champion 5, picking Warblade 2 after the 4 wizard levels, to pick a 2nd level maneuver at level 6. You might as well consider picking Sorcerer for some nice Cha synergy. Ranger 1/Fighter 1/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Cyran Avenger 5/Sacred Exorcist 3 uses Cha to damage (Divine Might), spells, and to fuel Cyran Avenger's avenging strike, with a solid BAB of +17 and CL 17th. Lots of tweaking can be done in here, and I would even consider going Ranger 2 and dropping Spellsword, then choose the 2wf route + Somatic Weaponry, which would synergize quite nicely with Divine Might. All these options feature a slightly better Ref save and better skill list. Sorry for the long post.
xanadu 10-15-06, 01:45 AM	Full BAB + full caster levels +9 mage armor (clearly RAI) + swift action shield casting? Sign me up!
X-Codes 10-15-06, 02:35 AM	Take the Militia feat from Players Guide to Fearun, it grants proficiency with all Martial Weapons. ...but I personally think that the Otherwordly regional feat from PGtF is the best way. First person to find something wrong with this method of qualifying for Knight Phantom (Five Nations) gets a cookie! Elf Wizard 4/Warblade 1/Eldrich Knight 2/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldrich Knight +8 with Sanctum Spell or something similar, or Elf Wizard 6/Warblade 1/Eldrich Knight 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldrich Knight +7 if it's not allowed.
Iry 10-15-06, 03:16 AM	First person to find something wrong with this method of qualifying for Knight Phantom (Five Nations) gets a cookie! Elf Wizard 4/Warblade 1/Eldrich Knight 2/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldrich Knight +8 with Sanctum Spell or something similar, or Elf Wizard 6/Warblade 1/Eldrich Knight 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldrich Knight +7 if it's not allowed. Besides being regionally specific material that crosses campaigns there's nothing wrong with those two feats. Since there is a place for everything in Eberron, it is a given that Aundair both recruits militias from the common people and can advance them to Knighthood, and it is a given that it is a land of floating castles allowing for resonable access to Otherworldly for any Elves present. DM Fiat in either case, of course.
X-Codes 10-15-06, 07:03 AM	Besides being regionally specific material that crosses campaigns there's nothing wrong with those two feats. Since there is a place for everything in Eberron, it is a given that Aundair both recruits militias from the common people and can advance them to Knighthood, and it is a given that it is a land of floating castles allowing for resonable access to Otherworldly for any Elves present. DM Fiat in either case, of course. :cookie: The use of Forgotten Realms specific material and Eberron specific material in the same build will be rejected from any game that isn't entirely open-ended (these are rare, I mean like good D&D-based video game rare).
DaveTheMagicWeasel 10-15-06, 07:16 AM	It strikes me the easiest option would just be Fighter 2 / Wizard 4 / Spellsword 1 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Eldritch Knight 8. BAB +18, CL 17, and no cross-campaign material for a DM to reject.
bigevill 10-15-06, 08:41 AM	Ok, but what I realy want to know is this: What feats should I take that would go along well with AC? Is there anything out there that works well with its class abilities?
Xeraph 10-15-06, 09:48 AM	Jade Phoenix Mage? Grey Hand Enforcer?
DaveTheMagicWeasel 10-15-06, 09:56 AM	Good Gish feats: - Practiced Spellcaster - Arcane Strike - Extend Spell - Quicken Spell - Persistent Spell - Power Attack (combine with Wraithstrike) - Leap Attack, Combat Brute, etc - Improved Toughness (covers one of your main weaknesses a bit)
Sang-Drax 10-15-06, 10:19 AM	Ok, but what I realy want to know is this: What feats should I take that would go along well with AC? Is there anything out there that works well with its class abilities? Well, if you really want to go with the odd Fig4/Wiz2 route, avoid spellcasting feats altogether. Your spell progression is already 2-3 levels behind the average Gish, which is by itself some 2-3 levels behind full casters. Practiced Spellcaster is a must for you, as is Wraithstrike + Power Attack combo. Consider picking 3 levels of Spellsword, as the 2nd level will net you a bonus feat - since you're much more of a warrior than a caster, bonus feats are quite important for you. Extend Spell is usually a great choice for a Gish, but, given your spellcaster limitations, I suggest buying yourself a Rod of Extend Spell - the lesser version costs 3,000gp and is enough to extend your Great Magic Armor and Greater Magic Weapon spells. I usually avocate on Arcane Strike's behalf, but I don't if it would be that spectacular in your case. If you have a somewhat high Int score and you're a specialist - or, better yet, a focused specialist variant from CMage - then, yes. If not, mayber you won't have that many slots to spare. If you go for the Abjurant Champion route, you'll need Combat Casting. In that case, Steady Concentration (RoS) may be a nice choice as well - take 10 on Concentration checks. I can't speak for everyone in here, but, at least for me, it's not unusual to roll a 1 when I try to cast defensively. Hmmm I can't think of any other feats right now. Remember, though, that Heroics is your best friend :)
Endar45 10-15-06, 11:26 AM	Fig2/Wiz4 isn't "2-3 levels behind average gish" - it's one level behind the Fig1/Wiz5 gish that most use as an alternative. Also, the Fig1/Wiz5 gish is itself only 1 level behind a pure spellcaster at early levels, and two levels behind at level 20. It would be more appropriate to say that the accelerated casting gish is 1-2 levels behind a full spellcaster, and the higher BAB gish is 1 level behind the alternative. For that matter, in some martial gish builds, getting access to extra iterative attacks from your BAB can be more useful than faster access to high level spells. With wraithstrike, there's even a good chance that the extra attack will hit. I've tried both ways, and neither way has really stood out as clearly having an advantage over the other when played to 20. If I was making the build at level 20, however, I'd probably go for the higher CL.
FromTheShadows 10-15-06, 11:42 AM	The mage armor goof is odd, to be sure, but there's actually a better replacement out there. (Greater) Luminous Armor from the BoED is an abjuration spell that gives a +5 armor bonus in a second level spell, or a +8 bonus in a fourth level spell for the greater version. As an extra bonus, it gives melee attackers a considerable penalty to hit and lasts for an hour per level. The only problem is the strength damage you take when you cast the thing, but there are plenty of ways to get around/heal that. With all five levels of abjurant champion, this means you'll be looking at a +10 bonus to AC from a second level spell or a +13 bonus from a fourth level spell. Combine this with the +9 bonus from shield, and you're looking at a +22 to AC. Two levels of argent savant would boost shield's bonus up another two, bringing the total up to +24 to AC.
Sang-Drax 10-15-06, 02:51 PM	Fig2/Wiz4 isn't "2-3 levels behind average gish" I was referring to Fig4/Wiz2, not Fig2/Wiz4, as in the first post: I need to build a 10th level character for a game I will play, and I was looking at abjurant champion. Looks awfully tough to me. I was thinking this type of build: fighter 4, wizard 2, abjurant champion 4. Emphasis mine. See? :P
Endar45 10-15-06, 03:01 PM	Ah... yup, I see. :p Ftr4/Wiz2 isn't really a good option, IMO, so aye, I'd agree with that entirely.
iconoplast 10-15-06, 03:17 PM	The only problem is the strength damage you take when you cast the thing, but there are plenty of ways to get around/heal that. Um... such as...? :)
Lord_of_Omnipotence 10-15-06, 06:44 PM	You don't need to use any cross campaign material to get into KP or EK without fighter levels. Simply play an outsider such as an Aasimar0 or a Tiefling0. Fighter levels drop caster levels, which are a far more important resource than a couple hit points or a feat or two.
bigevill 10-15-06, 06:48 PM	ok, I am most likely gonna go fighter4/wizard2. I am not concerend with getting max caster levels out of this. I just want to play a fun character. Thats why I was asking about feat suggestions.
Endar45 10-15-06, 07:04 PM	Perhaps I should word that more strongly - I agree with Sang Drax on that one. It's not that you're going for max caster levels, but that, as a gish, you require an acceptable caster level. If you go Ftr4/Wiz2, your caster level has been irrevocably tanked for 2 levels in exchange for a fighter feat. I cannot think of a less optimal way to begin your build. Consider Ftr2/Wiz4 as a means to achieve your end.
bigevill 10-15-06, 07:08 PM	fighter 2 and wizard 4 does not meet the +5 BaB to get into the class. I know you guys feel like you are trying to steer a NooB the right way but I am not a NooB. I have been playing D&D for 20+ years and my friends know I am a rule hog. My highschool gaming group got special thanxs for helping to develope 2nd edition for gods sake. What I really want is some suggestions for my feats.......
Lord_of_Omnipotence 10-15-06, 08:54 PM	Take the combat wizard varient in unearthed arcana so you can take combat feats rather than item creation and metamagic feats. Improved Toughess, practiced spellcaster, arcane strike, weapon focus, power attack, and combat casting are a decent start. Wraithstrike + power attack + arcane strike is an insanely powerful combo.
Prominence 10-15-06, 09:10 PM	Frankly if I was that concerned with getting into the class at 7th level I would use a duskblade or Fighter 2 / Bard 4 --> abjurant champion -> Sublime Chord. Heck I'd even consider warblade 2 instead of fighter 2. Yes, Ftr 2 / Wiz 4 does not meet the pre-reqs. Wizard 5 gives you a feat and Wiz 6 +saves, so it's a livable way to go into Abjurant Champion, just a little later. Fighter 4 / Wizard 2 qualifies, but can't make good use out of abjurant champion since your spells/day and duration will suck. 1. Your Spells will be horrible, 2. Your spells/day will be horrible, 3. your spell level will be aburdly delayed, 4. most good gish feats will not be good feats for you for a long time, 5. you will never hit 9th level spells, 6. your future progression will be whacked over the head with a bat and beaten into a little pulp because you couldn't wait 2 levels. The feats above are all great. I'd add improved initiative on there.
bigevill 10-15-06, 09:12 PM	I will never make it to 15th level in this game. I am not too concerned with where I could go, only where I will be.
Lord_of_Omnipotence 10-15-06, 10:03 PM	If 15th level is what you're ending with, and you're looking for a stronger combat oriented build I'd suggest Fighter2/Wizard4/Spellsword1/AbjurantChampion5/EldritchKnight3. in that order This build remains strong throughout its career and finishes with BAB 13 and CL12.
Tweedledope 10-15-06, 10:05 PM	Would this PrC be a good end for a Duskblade?
Lord_of_Omnipotence 10-15-06, 10:11 PM	Probably not. Duskblade in my experience thrives when taken straight. Prestige classes which increase casting are wasted on a class that tops with 5th level spells.
Tweedledope 10-15-06, 10:27 PM	It's not really a casting focused class IMO. The spells are there as a boost. If you look at it, the best drop is when they can execute full attack with a spell channelled. That's at 13th level. After 13, you don't really gain any other huge benefits from Duskblade. However, if you drop 5 levels into Abjurant Champion, you get a ton of goodies. Seems like the perfect fit for me especially for those AC boosts. -=TD=-
Sang-Drax 10-15-06, 11:41 PM	My highschool gaming group got special thanxs for helping to develope 2nd edition for gods sake. Really? Well, concerning feats, I've wrote all I could back in post #34. But hey, why no begin as a Ranger2/Fighter 2/Wizard 2 instead? You'll need Somatic Weaponry if you opt for 2wfighting, but I think it could be a rather interesting and versatile character, specially with Able Learner. You'd have a hard time with MAD, though... thing is, I do have a knack for rangers, but I still haven't the right opportunity to play one since 3e came out. So I keep trying to convince others to do it instead ;)
Keldar 10-16-06, 05:02 AM	First person to find something wrong with this method of qualifying for Knight Phantom (Five Nations) gets a cookie! Elf Wizard 4/Warblade 1/Eldrich Knight 2/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldrich Knight +8 with Sanctum Spell or something similar, or Elf Wizard 6/Warblade 1/Eldrich Knight 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldrich Knight +7 if it's not allowed. Whats wrong with that method is Warblade only give proficiency in martial melee weapons. Eldrich Knight requires general Martial weapon proficiency. :cookie:
X-Codes 10-16-06, 07:58 AM	Whats wrong with that method is Warblade only give proficiency in martial melee weapons. Eldrich Knight requires general Martial weapon proficiency. :cookie: Hence the Elf race.
Skadrian 10-16-06, 08:11 AM	elf doesnt give total martial wpn prof, it only gives proficiency in longbow and longsword, which isnt enough for eldritch knight
carnivore 10-16-06, 09:04 AM	why not this: Duskblade 5/ Abjurant Champion 5 get +10 BAB...full caster progression...many other goodies :D
Tweedledope 10-16-06, 09:51 AM	why not this: Duskblade 5/ Abjurant Champion 5 get +10 BAB...full caster progression...many other goodies :D I feel that if you miss Duskblade 13 you have missed a very important piece of the puzzle. The ability to make a full attack with a channelled spell is unbeatable. However, a Duskblade 13/Abjurant Champion 5/EK 3 gets +20 BAB and 19th Caster Level for the Duskblade. Not to mention a handy bonus fighter feat! :D -=TD=-
Prominence 10-16-06, 09:53 AM	Duskblade 5 / Abjurant Champion 5 still can get Duskblade 13, I believe he was implying that if you never get to 13-15th level, d5/ac5 was great.
Xeraph 10-16-06, 09:54 AM	Duskblade 15/ AC 5/ Grehand Enforcer 3? I wonder, did the designers know that AC is short for Abjurant Champion... Ironic eh?
Tweedledope 10-16-06, 09:56 AM	Duskblade 15/ AC 5/ Grehand Enforcer 3? I wonder, did the designers know that AC is short for Abjurant Champion... Ironic eh? The designers didn't take much time with this class at all...the editors, too, were out on a smoke break.
Xeraph 10-16-06, 10:15 AM	The designers didn't take much time with this class at all...the editors, too, were out on a smoke break. I wonder, what did they smoke?
carnivore 10-16-06, 11:56 AM	Duskblade 5 / Abjurant Champion 5 still can get Duskblade 13, I believe he was implying that if you never get to 13-15th level, d5/ac5 was great. correct :D
KnightRanger 10-16-06, 05:31 PM	Duskblade would be great for the AC, if it could cast shield. :(
X-Codes 10-16-06, 06:49 PM	elf doesnt give total martial wpn prof, it only gives proficiency in longbow and longsword, which isnt enough for eldritch knight Longbow, longsword, *and* shortbow. The only ranged martial weapons in the game are the longbow and shortbow, and the Warblade gives proficiency with all the melee ones. Therefore, you are proficient with all martial weapons and qualify for Eldrich Knight.
FriendlyFrog 10-16-06, 06:52 PM	Longbow, longsword, *and* shortbow. The only ranged martial weapons in the game are the longbow and shortbow, and the Warblade gives proficiency with all the melee ones. I'm not sure, but there could be other martial ranged weapons in other books, even if those are the only ones in core.
FromTheShadows 10-16-06, 07:01 PM	I wonder, what did they smoke? Answer: Yes. The only problem is the strength damage you take when you cast the thing, but there are plenty of ways to get around/heal that. Um... such as...? Schema or 1/day item of lesser restoration, Shape Soulmeld (Strongheart Vest) + Incarnum finagling, necropolitan goodness, etc.
NilllMilll 10-16-06, 07:56 PM	When I heard about this class I took it a different way. The friend who told me about it had the idea of focusing more on BAB than casting. Why take a class that allows your bab to replace your caster level and then spend all your levels negating that ability? Try to only lose 1 to the BAB and get caster levels as a secondary option. EK is nice and all, but you still get nothing but bab and spell levels. With Int based fighting classes like duelist, the complete warrior Fighter/caster classes, swashbuckler, or any interesting full BAB class you could make something that would be alot of fun to play and have things other than spells and BAB. Your spells, albeit lower level, will still be on par caster level wise. The best class i saw was song sword(i can't remember the name, you have to be an elf) You get your Int to ac per level, throw in some spell sword. 'cause even if you want your BAB at full, some more caster levels will not hurt
X-Codes 10-16-06, 08:30 PM	I'm not sure, but there could be other martial ranged weapons in other books, even if those are the only ones in core. Well, there aren't. The only martial weapon released in another book was the Lucerne Hammer in the A&EG. The vast majority of new weapons are exotic weapons, not martial.
Prominence 10-16-06, 08:49 PM	When I heard about this class I took it a different way. The friend who told me about it had the idea of focusing more on BAB than casting. Why take a class that allows your bab to replace your caster level and then spend all your levels negating that ability? The replacement is the 5th level ability. Even barring that, at 5th level AC you get +1 AC on spells, +1 CL, +1 BaB, possibly +saves. That's pretty much superior than any gish level. The bonus abilities it brings -even for pure casters- is better than most casting prc's. With Int based fighting classes like duelist, the complete warrior Fighter/caster classes, swashbuckler, or any interesting full BAB class you could make something that would be alot of fun to play and have things other than spells and BAB. Your spells, albeit lower level, will still be on par caster level wise. The best class i saw was song sword(i can't remember the name, you have to be an elf) You get your Int to ac per level, throw in some spell sword. 'cause even if you want your BAB at full, some more caster levels will not hurt Firstly, you're still capable of making fighter/caster builds without losing a very large amount of BaB. Secondly, the other builds you mention have a lot stiffer requirements and less benefits. Even if your Caster Level is on par, your Spell Level won't be, and spell level is by far more important.
FriendlyFrog 10-17-06, 02:04 AM	Well, there aren't. The only martial weapon released in another book was the Lucerne Hammer in the A&EG. The vast majority of new weapons are exotic weapons, not martial. Well, there actually are. There are at least two ranged martial weapons that elves don't get the proficiency with: the aquatic longbow from Stormwrack and the atlatl from Sandstorm.
FeceMan 10-17-06, 02:08 AM	Hehe... Abjurant Champion, AC...initials.
xanadu 10-17-06, 02:17 AM	Well, there actually are. There are at least two ranged martial weapons that elves don't get the proficiency with: the aquatic longbow from Stormwrack and the atlatl from Sandstorm. AS a DM you'd pull the "you cant qualify for that PrC because you aren't proficient in the atlatl" argument :eek: What the hell is an atlatl? I actually know but I felt the urge to scream :) I wonder how many other builds have been invalidated by the sudden appearance of the aquatic longbow :P
Endar45 10-17-06, 04:18 AM	I think Prominence hit the nail on the head with the bard-based variant as far as usability goes at moderate levels. I realize that shortage of BAB without going fighter heavy is trouble, but the shortage of CL's found by going fighter heavy is simply unbearable to me. Also, here on the boards my R/L position, claimed years of experience, or status as a n00b (or as an expert) are all worthless. Only the advice I give has worth. If you ask for advice, please don't counter it with claims about your skill and experience. In return, we won't clutter the advice with reminders about how many times we've won awards with our creations (if any). :p
X-Codes 10-17-06, 07:47 AM	Well, there actually are. There are at least two ranged martial weapons that elves don't get the proficiency with: the aquatic longbow from Stormwrack and the atlatl from Sandstorm. This is funny. I'm cracking up... Splat Books have actually *weakened* a class. Go figure, it's a warrior-type. I don't like it... by that I mean I think it's @&#%n' stupid... but whatever. Apparently the old French knights knew how to use an Atlatl.
WombleHunter 10-17-06, 12:43 PM	I don't like it... by that I mean I think it's @&#%n' stupid... but whatever. Apparently the old French knights knew how to use an Atlatl. And tridents, scythes, kukris and saps, too. Not to mention all that spiked armour they wore.