Abjurant Champion/Duskblade [Archive] - Wizards Community

Abjurant Champion/Duskblade [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Level1Commoner
11-03-06, 07:04 PM The Abjurant Chamption is from the Complete Mage. It's a 5-level PrC with full spellcasting, d10 HP and abilities... GOOD abilities. This may seem overpowered at first, but the prereq's for it are BAB +5 and 1st level abjuration spells (and Combat Casting, I think). His AC can be pretty kick ass and with his BAB he can be a pretty good fighter if the build is right.

The build so far looks like this (in this order):

Duskblade 3 (PHB2)
Wizard 4
Abjurant Champion 5 (CM)
Argent Savant 5 (CArc)
Wizard 3

He loses three levels of spellcasting for his duskblade levels (although he gains Duskblade spells) and one lost spellcasting level for the first Argent Savant level.

His AC bonus from protective force effects gives him an EXTRA 7 (2 from argent savant, 5 from abjurant champion). So the shield spell gives a +11 bonus (cast as a quickened spell from the 2nd level Abjurant Champion ability) and Greater Mage Armor gives a +13 armor bonus. Not too shabby.

The better force spells from Argent Savant is also Pretty sweet. And with the Practised Spellcaster feat his caster level will be right in line with his character level.

And my favourite part is the 3rd level Duskblade ability to channel "any touch spell he knows" through his sword with a melee attack roll. (Note, this is NOT "any Duskblade spell he knows".)

So this is basically a build for a fighting caster who can also swing a sword. Not incredibly overpowered, but I think it would be fun to play. I made it for a buddy of mine who wanted to be a caster but hated how they always sat back and cast from afar, and he wanted to swing a sword.

I've thought about Arcane Disciple (War) to get Divine Power to up the BAB (and also it doesn't have the drawback of no spellcasting like Tensor's Transformation). But are there any thoughts for a similar type of build? Better fighting wizards out there? (Polymorphers excepted.)
ressurrector
11-03-06, 07:26 PM Looks nice, although Mage Armor and Greater Mage Armor are not actually abjuration spells.

It looks like you're going to be casting as 16th level wizard, which is just shy of 9th level spells.
It might be a better idea to just use Fighter1/Wizard/Adjurant Champion/Eldrich Knight/Argent Savant
The Duskblade's level 3 ability is kind of nice, but at high level, all you're doing is adding your (negligible) single hit damage to a spell effect.
I'd say go with a more generic Fighter/Wizard, using Abjurant Champion and EK to keep your BAB and HP up.

As a sidenote, there's plenty of good Gish builds that use the Sublime Chord and PrCs which advance spellcasting.
Level1Commoner
11-03-06, 07:53 PM With regard to mage armor/greater mage armor, the fact that they're not officially abjurations doesn't matter as far as the abjurant champion and argent savant abilities go.

In order to qualify for abjurant champion from just fighter 1 / wizard you'd have to take 8 wizard levels to get the BAB high enough to qualify. The duskblade gives nice full BAB as well as the martial weapon proficiency. EK would up the BAB much faster, but it really gives you dick all, and the first lost spellcasting level just hurts ad seems pointless.

Also, the character isn't just a level 20 build, it's meant to be played from mid level onward. From this standpoint the low level BAB is quite good - it's at +10/+5 at character level 12 while he's a 9th level caster (and 3rd level duskblade caster).

Also, using a spell storing weapon means he can double cast the first round. So (e.g.) at character level 10 he hits him with his greatsword for 2d6+6 plus 10d8 sonic from a Sound Lance (fort 1/2) stored in his weapon plus maybe 5d6 from a vampiric touch (no save), which he gets as temporary HP. Shocking grasp is a pretty good one too, for a level 1 spell - 5d6 electricity and a +2 on the attack roll if buddy is wearing metal armor.

Spell storing makes the duskblade dip seem a bit better, doesn't it?
Caelic
11-03-06, 08:02 PM It doesn't matter for Argent Savant; it does matter for Abjurant Champion. Abjurant Champion SHOULD work on Mage Armor--I think it was INTENDED to work on Mage Armor--but, as written, it doesn't.
ressurrector
11-03-06, 08:51 PM Might I suggest this build as an alternative?
Bard4/Warblade2/Jade Phoenix Mage1/Bard +3/Sublime Chord1/Jade Phoenix Mage +9 (sub in Swordsage if you wish)
16 initiator level
16 caster level
9th level Sublime Chord casting (gives 1 9th level spell)
7th level Bard casting/bardic abilities
17 bab

Of course it can be made better by cheating into Sublime Chord with Wizard levels and such, but I feel this is fairly basic and good to play throught the levels. (at low levels a Bard isn't bad by itself, at higher levels you get your added on goodies)

[edit]
As a sidenote, in the above suggested Fighter/Wizard build, it'd be something like this:
Fighter1/Wizard5/EK2/Abjurant Champion5/Argent Savant5/EK +2
Netting 14 bab
level 17 wizard casting
being only 1-2 levels behind pure wizard at low levels (with better hp)
Your force armor things.
Personally I'd ditch the Argent Savant, as I find the abilities not that great. Subbing in EK levels gives better HP and negates the lost caster level (if you're allready taking EK) You also get 3 more bab.
PhoenixInferno
11-03-06, 09:04 PM It doesn't matter for Argent Savant; it does matter for Abjurant Champion. Abjurant Champion SHOULD work on Mage Armor--I think it was INTENDED to work on Mage Armor--but, as written, it doesn't.But hey, +9 Shield bonus ain't too shabby.
tsuyoshikentsu
11-03-06, 09:15 PM (Greater) Luminous Armor.
Level1Commoner
11-05-06, 12:59 AM It does matter for Argent Savant, actually, it's right in the description of the "Force Armor" class ability. +2 to any force spell that provides an armor or shield bonus to AC, and it specifically mentions mage armor as an example.
Caelic
11-05-06, 01:04 AM Err...you're contradicting yourself, Commoner. You said:

With regard to mage armor/greater mage armor, the fact that they're not officially abjurations doesn't matter as far as the abjurant champion and argent savant abilities go.

I agreed with you that it doesn't matter for Argent Savant, but pointed out that you were wrong about the Abjurant Champion; it DOES matter that they're not abjurations for AC.

Now you're turning around and saying that it DOES matter that they're not officially abjurations for Argent Savant?
Level1Commoner
11-05-06, 02:10 AM Misunderstanding. I thought you were saying the class abilities don't matter. You were actually saying that the fact that they aren't abjurations doesn't matter for Argent Savant.

Still, it's not unrealistic to expect that the Abjurant Champon ability would work on Mage Armor, since that spell is specifically mentioned in the Abjurant Champion's ability.

Just give the DM the old "C'monnnnnn" argument, he'll cave.
Rashomon
11-05-06, 04:19 AM Greater Luminous Armor ftmfw.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Level1Commoner 11-03-06, 07:04 PM	The Abjurant Chamption is from the Complete Mage. It's a 5-level PrC with full spellcasting, d10 HP and abilities... GOOD abilities. This may seem overpowered at first, but the prereq's for it are BAB +5 and 1st level abjuration spells (and Combat Casting, I think). His AC can be pretty kick ass and with his BAB he can be a pretty good fighter if the build is right. The build so far looks like this (in this order): Duskblade 3 (PHB2) Wizard 4 Abjurant Champion 5 (CM) Argent Savant 5 (CArc) Wizard 3 He loses three levels of spellcasting for his duskblade levels (although he gains Duskblade spells) and one lost spellcasting level for the first Argent Savant level. His AC bonus from protective force effects gives him an EXTRA 7 (2 from argent savant, 5 from abjurant champion). So the shield spell gives a +11 bonus (cast as a quickened spell from the 2nd level Abjurant Champion ability) and Greater Mage Armor gives a +13 armor bonus. Not too shabby. The better force spells from Argent Savant is also Pretty sweet. And with the Practised Spellcaster feat his caster level will be right in line with his character level. And my favourite part is the 3rd level Duskblade ability to channel "any touch spell he knows" through his sword with a melee attack roll. (Note, this is NOT "any Duskblade spell he knows".) So this is basically a build for a fighting caster who can also swing a sword. Not incredibly overpowered, but I think it would be fun to play. I made it for a buddy of mine who wanted to be a caster but hated how they always sat back and cast from afar, and he wanted to swing a sword. I've thought about Arcane Disciple (War) to get Divine Power to up the BAB (and also it doesn't have the drawback of no spellcasting like Tensor's Transformation). But are there any thoughts for a similar type of build? Better fighting wizards out there? (Polymorphers excepted.)
ressurrector 11-03-06, 07:26 PM	Looks nice, although Mage Armor and Greater Mage Armor are not actually abjuration spells. It looks like you're going to be casting as 16th level wizard, which is just shy of 9th level spells. It might be a better idea to just use Fighter1/Wizard/Adjurant Champion/Eldrich Knight/Argent Savant The Duskblade's level 3 ability is kind of nice, but at high level, all you're doing is adding your (negligible) single hit damage to a spell effect. I'd say go with a more generic Fighter/Wizard, using Abjurant Champion and EK to keep your BAB and HP up. As a sidenote, there's plenty of good Gish builds that use the Sublime Chord and PrCs which advance spellcasting.
Level1Commoner 11-03-06, 07:53 PM	With regard to mage armor/greater mage armor, the fact that they're not officially abjurations doesn't matter as far as the abjurant champion and argent savant abilities go. In order to qualify for abjurant champion from just fighter 1 / wizard you'd have to take 8 wizard levels to get the BAB high enough to qualify. The duskblade gives nice full BAB as well as the martial weapon proficiency. EK would up the BAB much faster, but it really gives you dick all, and the first lost spellcasting level just hurts ad seems pointless. Also, the character isn't just a level 20 build, it's meant to be played from mid level onward. From this standpoint the low level BAB is quite good - it's at +10/+5 at character level 12 while he's a 9th level caster (and 3rd level duskblade caster). Also, using a spell storing weapon means he can double cast the first round. So (e.g.) at character level 10 he hits him with his greatsword for 2d6+6 plus 10d8 sonic from a Sound Lance (fort 1/2) stored in his weapon plus maybe 5d6 from a vampiric touch (no save), which he gets as temporary HP. Shocking grasp is a pretty good one too, for a level 1 spell - 5d6 electricity and a +2 on the attack roll if buddy is wearing metal armor. Spell storing makes the duskblade dip seem a bit better, doesn't it?
Caelic 11-03-06, 08:02 PM	It doesn't matter for Argent Savant; it does matter for Abjurant Champion. Abjurant Champion SHOULD work on Mage Armor--I think it was INTENDED to work on Mage Armor--but, as written, it doesn't.
ressurrector 11-03-06, 08:51 PM	Might I suggest this build as an alternative? Bard4/Warblade2/Jade Phoenix Mage1/Bard +3/Sublime Chord1/Jade Phoenix Mage +9 (sub in Swordsage if you wish) 16 initiator level 16 caster level 9th level Sublime Chord casting (gives 1 9th level spell) 7th level Bard casting/bardic abilities 17 bab Of course it can be made better by cheating into Sublime Chord with Wizard levels and such, but I feel this is fairly basic and good to play throught the levels. (at low levels a Bard isn't bad by itself, at higher levels you get your added on goodies) [edit] As a sidenote, in the above suggested Fighter/Wizard build, it'd be something like this: Fighter1/Wizard5/EK2/Abjurant Champion5/Argent Savant5/EK +2 Netting 14 bab level 17 wizard casting being only 1-2 levels behind pure wizard at low levels (with better hp) Your force armor things. Personally I'd ditch the Argent Savant, as I find the abilities not that great. Subbing in EK levels gives better HP and negates the lost caster level (if you're allready taking EK) You also get 3 more bab.
PhoenixInferno 11-03-06, 09:04 PM	It doesn't matter for Argent Savant; it does matter for Abjurant Champion. Abjurant Champion SHOULD work on Mage Armor--I think it was INTENDED to work on Mage Armor--but, as written, it doesn't.But hey, +9 Shield bonus ain't too shabby.
tsuyoshikentsu 11-03-06, 09:15 PM	(Greater) Luminous Armor.
Level1Commoner 11-05-06, 12:59 AM	It does matter for Argent Savant, actually, it's right in the description of the "Force Armor" class ability. +2 to any force spell that provides an armor or shield bonus to AC, and it specifically mentions mage armor as an example.
Caelic 11-05-06, 01:04 AM	Err...you're contradicting yourself, Commoner. You said: With regard to mage armor/greater mage armor, the fact that they're not officially abjurations doesn't matter as far as the abjurant champion and argent savant abilities go. I agreed with you that it doesn't matter for Argent Savant, but pointed out that you were wrong about the Abjurant Champion; it DOES matter that they're not abjurations for AC. Now you're turning around and saying that it DOES matter that they're not officially abjurations for Argent Savant?
Level1Commoner 11-05-06, 02:10 AM	Misunderstanding. I thought you were saying the class abilities don't matter. You were actually saying that the fact that they aren't abjurations doesn't matter for Argent Savant. Still, it's not unrealistic to expect that the Abjurant Champon ability would work on Mage Armor, since that spell is specifically mentioned in the Abjurant Champion's ability. Just give the DM the old "C'monnnnnn" argument, he'll cave.
Rashomon 11-05-06, 04:19 AM	Greater Luminous Armor ftmfw.