abjurant champion/tempest/then??? [Archive] - Wizards Community

abjurant champion/tempest/then??? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
EpicNoob101
01-06-07, 01:55 PM Hello all i was just looking for some advise... i have a 7th lvl fighter/4th lvl Sorcerer/ 5th lvl abjurant Champion/ 3rd lvl tempest and was wondering where some of you would take this character after i finnish my tempest levels??? also next level up i will be going one more into sorcerer so i get 5th lvl spells then finnishing off my tempest levels... but am kind of lost as to where to go with him from there... also any good spell ideas as im the champaign i am playing in we are fighting mostly undead and vampires and such... any ideas??? thanks in advance.

Aghnate Al'Vere
DaveTheMagicWeasel
01-06-07, 02:06 PM Odd number of Fighter levels? Lost caster levels? Tempest? Ouch!

How much of this, if any, can be changed?

What books are available?

Whats the rest of the party?

What are your current ability scores, feats, commonly used spells, etc?

The more info you give us the more help we can be.
EpicNoob101
01-06-07, 02:27 PM well let's see i priarily use circle of protection agianst evil, many jaws (i dunno why but i love that spell) Shield (of course), anti-dragon aura, phantasmal strangler(not very useful in this part of the champaign), touch of years(also not very useful right now), Crystaling memories(would be great if i got a chance to finnish the spell before the creature i'm casting it on dies), ray of enfeeblement(again not much help right now.. but it was great), i'm not entirely sure on the rest, as my DM has my stat sheet

as for other charaters we have a Dwarf favored soul/scout/pious templar, a baddass human scout/ardent/elocator, a cerebromancer, and of course our favorite gnome scorcerer/elemental savant, also an NPC Cleric, and an NPC Rogue/fighter

stats are as follows
Str 24
Dex 22
Con 18
Int 14
wis 12
Cha 16

Feats (if i can remember them all):
Combat Casting
two weapon fighting
improved two-weapon fighting
spring attack
somatic weaponry
improved Crit (greatsword...i'm weilding 2 +5 greatswords)
oversized twp
monkey grip
dodge
mobility
weapon focus (greatsword)

ummm anything else i can add let me know
PhoenixInferno
01-06-07, 04:10 PM Tempest sucks so hard its not even funny - the fact that there's a FEAT that can replace just about all 5 levels of it is a testament to its absolute suck-itude.
EpicNoob101
01-06-07, 07:08 PM well thank you for your awesome input pheonix... maybe i posted on here for help because i wanted a little help getting past the... wait... what was it??? oh yeah! "Suck-itude" so a little more "constructive" criticism, and a little less a$$-hole-itude-ish-ness-osity would be apraciated! thanks.
PhoenixInferno
01-06-07, 07:18 PM well thank you for your awesome input pheonix... maybe i posted on here for help because i wanted a little help getting past the... wait... what was it??? oh yeah! "Suck-itude" so a little more "constructive" criticism, and a little less a$$-hole-itude-ish-ness-osity would be apraciated! thanks.It was implied that you should drop the Tempest levels. But I can tell you don't want to think too hard, so I'll make it obvious - drop the Tempest levels.

Dual wielding Monkey Gripped Greatswords is also another spectacularly stupid idea. Mostly because its illegal - Monkey Grip doesn't change the "amount of effort" required to use the weapon, nor can you wield a Monkey Gripped weapon in your off hand. The fascination with large weapons is odd - most of the damage you deal is based on the bonuses, not on the weapon.
EpicNoob101
01-06-07, 07:22 PM It was implied that you should drop the Tempest levels. But I can tell you don't want to think too hard, so I'll make it obvious - drop the Tempest levels.

Dual wielding Monkey Gripped Greatswords is also another spectacularly stupid idea. Mostly because its illegal - Monkey Grip doesn't change the "amount of effort" required to use the weapon, nor can you wield a Monkey Gripped weapon in your off hand. The fascination with large weapons is odd - most of the damage you deal is based on the bonuses, not on the weapon.

first off i apologise for my first response... i was feeling a little frazzled... anyways... my DM is allowing this duel-weild combo and i think because of that, he will not let me modify my character... but he is a little slow getting back to my e-mails so i'm still waiting on the response... so, should he not let me make changes... i should just stop taking tempest levels and move on to bigger and better things?? do you have any suggestions as to what those bigger and better things might be??? i had one suggestion of spellsword... but after looking that over... it doesnt seem to be that great either... except for being able to wear armor without spell failure... but i kinda thought one of the purposes of abjurant champion was not to look like a fighter... while still getting the AC of one... but i dunno as i am still somewhat new... and this will be my first epic character( assuming i live through the next 3 levels).

Aghnate Al'Vere
EyeontheMountain
01-06-07, 07:24 PM Do you have access to the PHBII? I don't see anything on your sheet from it.

A few suggestions for feats/classes

Since you are almost epic now, BAB and saves no longer matter much, just hit points and spellcasting progression (plus special abilities, natch)

So I would go into getting your spellcasting up as high as possible. For level 20 I would get sorceror, or any otehr prestige calss you can qualify for and not bother to finish Tempest. In PHBII there is the Feat Bounding assault, and then (I don't remember) that give you one additional attack on a spring attack each. If you DM allows this to stack with the tempest capstone ability, then you might as well finish off tempest.

After that, I would go with spellcasting. Force adept is a kinda neat class that stacks well with Abjurant champion (giving you +11 AC from you shield, but is probably not optimal. Their ability to get rid of forcewalls and forcecages when needed is fun, though.

Hope this helps a bit.
EpicNoob101
01-06-07, 07:30 PM Do you have access to the PHBII? I don't see anything on your sheet from it.

Abjurant champion (giving you +11 AC from you shield, but is probably not optimal. Their ability to get rid of forcewalls and forcecages when needed is fun, though.

Hope this helps a bit.

umm i do not personally have the PHBII but i will soon (it's on my list of must haves)

and knowing my DM that ability might just come in handy... he likes throwing stuff like that at us... plus draco-liches with insane character levels

thank you for your input...
EpicNoob101
01-06-07, 10:59 PM what book do i find the Force Adept in???
Sharp_Claw
01-06-07, 11:14 PM I usually use this site (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=133833) to remember where stuff is; for your reference, the "Force Mage" (actually the Argent Savant) is in Complete Arcane.

also, I think PHBII might have been asked about b/c there are retraining rules for your character; your DM may not let you just change things around, but if there are set rules for it...I guess its worth a shot. the tempest levels are obvious, but I should also point out (and I'm surprised that no one else has made a big deal about this) that you've got odd levels of fighter. never do this, ever ever.

also, in general, Practiced Spellcaster is a handy way to make up for lost CL.
BomTrady
01-06-07, 11:19 PM Complete Arcane I believe.

I also like the spell manyjaws, though not particularly optimal, it is really cool in flavor. One thing about it that is cool is that (i think and may be corrected on this) it can be used without breaking invisibility. Is that right?

Edit: Not in time...
DaveTheMagicWeasel
01-07-07, 08:02 AM Right, TWFing Gish is a suboptimal concept all in itself, but if thats what you want to do I'll try to help.

1. If possible drop that 7th level of Fighter - any class that gives full BAB is a better choice than an odd level of FIghter. Also, drop the Tempest levels if you can.

2. Head for either Virtuoso (Complete Adventurer) or Prestige Bard (Unearthed Arcana / SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestige Bard)). In either case take 2 levels. This then qualifies you for Snowflake Wardance (Frostburn), which gets you Cha to hit when wielding one-handed slashing weapon (e.g. your greatswords / large longswords).

3. Then head for Dervish (Complete Warrior). Your feats qualify you for it already and it will help you build up Perform (Dance) ranks to power Snowflake Wardance.

So, if an extensive rebuild is possible my suggestion would be Fighter 4 / Sorcerer 2 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Prestige Bard 2 / Dervish 7 (note that this assumes you can Dervish Dance and Snowflake Wardance simultaneously, check with your DM as I don't think there's ever been an official ruling. If he says no, swap the Prestige Bard levels for 2 more Sorcerer).

I'd also suggest you consider the Arcane Strike feat (Complete Warrior), though I'm not sure you have enough spell slots to make it worthwhile, and possibly an Extra Music for more Snowflake Wardances per day.

Finally, Wraithstrike (Complete Adventurer / Spell Compendium) is an excellent spell that I'd suggest you add to your spells known if it isn't already on there.

EDIT - also, since you're high level, are you planning on taking this game into Epic levels? Because if you are your current setup leaves you at least 10 levels away from completing a class with an epic progression - which is really going to hurt you.
EpicNoob101
01-07-07, 10:36 AM wow. thank you... and yes my dm is planing on us lasting until around lvl 50 in this champaign....
draco1119
01-07-07, 11:45 AM Right, TWFing Gish is a suboptimal concept all in itself, but if thats what you want to do I'll try to help.

1. If possible drop that 7th level of Fighter - any class that gives full BAB is a better choice than an odd level of FIghter. Also, drop the Tempest levels if you can.

2. Head for either Virtuoso (Complete Adventurer) or Prestige Bard (Unearthed Arcana / SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestige Bard)). In either case take 2 levels. This then qualifies you for Snowflake Wardance (Frostburn), which gets you Cha to hit when wielding one-handed slashing weapon (e.g. your greatswords / large longswords).

3. Then head for Dervish (Complete Warrior). Your feats qualify you for it already and it will help you build up Perform (Dance) ranks to power Snowflake Wardance.

So, if an extensive rebuild is possible my suggestion would be Fighter 4 / Sorcerer 2 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Prestige Bard 2 / Dervish 7 (note that this assumes you can Dervish Dance and Snowflake Wardance simultaneously, check with your DM as I don't think there's ever been an official ruling. If he says no, swap the Prestige Bard levels for 2 more Sorcerer).

I'd also suggest you consider the Arcane Strike feat (Complete Warrior), though I'm not sure you have enough spell slots to make it worthwhile, and possibly an Extra Music for more Snowflake Wardances per day.

Finally, Wraithstrike (Complete Adventurer / Spell Compendium) is an excellent spell that I'd suggest you add to your spells known if it isn't already on there.

EDIT - also, since you're high level, are you planning on taking this game into Epic levels? Because if you are your current setup leaves you at least 10 levels away from completing a class with an epic progression - which is really going to hurt you.
I'm the Dwarf Favored Soul/Scout/PT EpicNoob mentioned in this campaign, and your build looks good, except for two requirements not mentioned:
We cannot PrC until 11th level, so any build needs to include ten levels of base classes. If we are in the middle of a PrC and take levels in a new PrC, we can't take more levels in the old one (like a multi-class pally or monk).
On the bright side, the DM allows any number of PrCs, and "Once a class skill, always a class skill" applies in this campaign. On the down side, we were just given the chance to re-work our characters, so switching/dropping levels is probably not an option now that two sessions have passed.
DaveTheMagicWeasel
01-07-07, 01:55 PM Ok then, Fighter 4 / Paladin 2 (alignment permitting, there are also variant Paladins in Unearthed Arcana) / Sorcerer 4 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Dervish 10 / Epic Dervish...

If nowt can be changed; Fighter 7 / Sorcerer 4 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Tempest 3 / Dervish 10 / Epic Dervish...

Either way, you ain't gonna be a fully fledged caster any time soon, so just play it as a melee damage dealer with self-buffing ability.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
EpicNoob101 01-06-07, 01:55 PM	Hello all i was just looking for some advise... i have a 7th lvl fighter/4th lvl Sorcerer/ 5th lvl abjurant Champion/ 3rd lvl tempest and was wondering where some of you would take this character after i finnish my tempest levels??? also next level up i will be going one more into sorcerer so i get 5th lvl spells then finnishing off my tempest levels... but am kind of lost as to where to go with him from there... also any good spell ideas as im the champaign i am playing in we are fighting mostly undead and vampires and such... any ideas??? thanks in advance. Aghnate Al'Vere
DaveTheMagicWeasel 01-06-07, 02:06 PM	Odd number of Fighter levels? Lost caster levels? Tempest? Ouch! How much of this, if any, can be changed? What books are available? Whats the rest of the party? What are your current ability scores, feats, commonly used spells, etc? The more info you give us the more help we can be.
EpicNoob101 01-06-07, 02:27 PM	well let's see i priarily use circle of protection agianst evil, many jaws (i dunno why but i love that spell) Shield (of course), anti-dragon aura, phantasmal strangler(not very useful in this part of the champaign), touch of years(also not very useful right now), Crystaling memories(would be great if i got a chance to finnish the spell before the creature i'm casting it on dies), ray of enfeeblement(again not much help right now.. but it was great), i'm not entirely sure on the rest, as my DM has my stat sheet as for other charaters we have a Dwarf favored soul/scout/pious templar, a baddass human scout/ardent/elocator, a cerebromancer, and of course our favorite gnome scorcerer/elemental savant, also an NPC Cleric, and an NPC Rogue/fighter stats are as follows Str 24 Dex 22 Con 18 Int 14 wis 12 Cha 16 Feats (if i can remember them all): Combat Casting two weapon fighting improved two-weapon fighting spring attack somatic weaponry improved Crit (greatsword...i'm weilding 2 +5 greatswords) oversized twp monkey grip dodge mobility weapon focus (greatsword) ummm anything else i can add let me know
PhoenixInferno 01-06-07, 04:10 PM	Tempest sucks so hard its not even funny - the fact that there's a FEAT that can replace just about all 5 levels of it is a testament to its absolute suck-itude.
EpicNoob101 01-06-07, 07:08 PM	well thank you for your awesome input pheonix... maybe i posted on here for help because i wanted a little help getting past the... wait... what was it??? oh yeah! "Suck-itude" so a little more "constructive" criticism, and a little less a$$-hole-itude-ish-ness-osity would be apraciated! thanks.
PhoenixInferno 01-06-07, 07:18 PM	well thank you for your awesome input pheonix... maybe i posted on here for help because i wanted a little help getting past the... wait... what was it??? oh yeah! "Suck-itude" so a little more "constructive" criticism, and a little less a$$-hole-itude-ish-ness-osity would be apraciated! thanks.It was implied that you should drop the Tempest levels. But I can tell you don't want to think too hard, so I'll make it obvious - drop the Tempest levels. Dual wielding Monkey Gripped Greatswords is also another spectacularly stupid idea. Mostly because its illegal - Monkey Grip doesn't change the "amount of effort" required to use the weapon, nor can you wield a Monkey Gripped weapon in your off hand. The fascination with large weapons is odd - most of the damage you deal is based on the bonuses, not on the weapon.
EpicNoob101 01-06-07, 07:22 PM	It was implied that you should drop the Tempest levels. But I can tell you don't want to think too hard, so I'll make it obvious - drop the Tempest levels. Dual wielding Monkey Gripped Greatswords is also another spectacularly stupid idea. Mostly because its illegal - Monkey Grip doesn't change the "amount of effort" required to use the weapon, nor can you wield a Monkey Gripped weapon in your off hand. The fascination with large weapons is odd - most of the damage you deal is based on the bonuses, not on the weapon. first off i apologise for my first response... i was feeling a little frazzled... anyways... my DM is allowing this duel-weild combo and i think because of that, he will not let me modify my character... but he is a little slow getting back to my e-mails so i'm still waiting on the response... so, should he not let me make changes... i should just stop taking tempest levels and move on to bigger and better things?? do you have any suggestions as to what those bigger and better things might be??? i had one suggestion of spellsword... but after looking that over... it doesnt seem to be that great either... except for being able to wear armor without spell failure... but i kinda thought one of the purposes of abjurant champion was not to look like a fighter... while still getting the AC of one... but i dunno as i am still somewhat new... and this will be my first epic character( assuming i live through the next 3 levels). Aghnate Al'Vere
EyeontheMountain 01-06-07, 07:24 PM	Do you have access to the PHBII? I don't see anything on your sheet from it. A few suggestions for feats/classes Since you are almost epic now, BAB and saves no longer matter much, just hit points and spellcasting progression (plus special abilities, natch) So I would go into getting your spellcasting up as high as possible. For level 20 I would get sorceror, or any otehr prestige calss you can qualify for and not bother to finish Tempest. In PHBII there is the Feat Bounding assault, and then (I don't remember) that give you one additional attack on a spring attack each. If you DM allows this to stack with the tempest capstone ability, then you might as well finish off tempest. After that, I would go with spellcasting. Force adept is a kinda neat class that stacks well with Abjurant champion (giving you +11 AC from you shield, but is probably not optimal. Their ability to get rid of forcewalls and forcecages when needed is fun, though. Hope this helps a bit.
EpicNoob101 01-06-07, 07:30 PM	Do you have access to the PHBII? I don't see anything on your sheet from it. Abjurant champion (giving you +11 AC from you shield, but is probably not optimal. Their ability to get rid of forcewalls and forcecages when needed is fun, though. Hope this helps a bit. umm i do not personally have the PHBII but i will soon (it's on my list of must haves) and knowing my DM that ability might just come in handy... he likes throwing stuff like that at us... plus draco-liches with insane character levels thank you for your input...
EpicNoob101 01-06-07, 10:59 PM	what book do i find the Force Adept in???
Sharp_Claw 01-06-07, 11:14 PM	I usually use this site (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=133833) to remember where stuff is; for your reference, the "Force Mage" (actually the Argent Savant) is in Complete Arcane. also, I think PHBII might have been asked about b/c there are retraining rules for your character; your DM may not let you just change things around, but if there are set rules for it...I guess its worth a shot. the tempest levels are obvious, but I should also point out (and I'm surprised that no one else has made a big deal about this) that you've got odd levels of fighter. never do this, ever ever. also, in general, Practiced Spellcaster is a handy way to make up for lost CL.
BomTrady 01-06-07, 11:19 PM	Complete Arcane I believe. I also like the spell manyjaws, though not particularly optimal, it is really cool in flavor. One thing about it that is cool is that (i think and may be corrected on this) it can be used without breaking invisibility. Is that right? Edit: Not in time...
DaveTheMagicWeasel 01-07-07, 08:02 AM	Right, TWFing Gish is a suboptimal concept all in itself, but if thats what you want to do I'll try to help. 1. If possible drop that 7th level of Fighter - any class that gives full BAB is a better choice than an odd level of FIghter. Also, drop the Tempest levels if you can. 2. Head for either Virtuoso (Complete Adventurer) or Prestige Bard (Unearthed Arcana / SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestige Bard)). In either case take 2 levels. This then qualifies you for Snowflake Wardance (Frostburn), which gets you Cha to hit when wielding one-handed slashing weapon (e.g. your greatswords / large longswords). 3. Then head for Dervish (Complete Warrior). Your feats qualify you for it already and it will help you build up Perform (Dance) ranks to power Snowflake Wardance. So, if an extensive rebuild is possible my suggestion would be Fighter 4 / Sorcerer 2 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Prestige Bard 2 / Dervish 7 (note that this assumes you can Dervish Dance and Snowflake Wardance simultaneously, check with your DM as I don't think there's ever been an official ruling. If he says no, swap the Prestige Bard levels for 2 more Sorcerer). I'd also suggest you consider the Arcane Strike feat (Complete Warrior), though I'm not sure you have enough spell slots to make it worthwhile, and possibly an Extra Music for more Snowflake Wardances per day. Finally, Wraithstrike (Complete Adventurer / Spell Compendium) is an excellent spell that I'd suggest you add to your spells known if it isn't already on there. EDIT - also, since you're high level, are you planning on taking this game into Epic levels? Because if you are your current setup leaves you at least 10 levels away from completing a class with an epic progression - which is really going to hurt you.
EpicNoob101 01-07-07, 10:36 AM	wow. thank you... and yes my dm is planing on us lasting until around lvl 50 in this champaign....
draco1119 01-07-07, 11:45 AM	Right, TWFing Gish is a suboptimal concept all in itself, but if thats what you want to do I'll try to help. 1. If possible drop that 7th level of Fighter - any class that gives full BAB is a better choice than an odd level of FIghter. Also, drop the Tempest levels if you can. 2. Head for either Virtuoso (Complete Adventurer) or Prestige Bard (Unearthed Arcana / SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestige Bard)). In either case take 2 levels. This then qualifies you for Snowflake Wardance (Frostburn), which gets you Cha to hit when wielding one-handed slashing weapon (e.g. your greatswords / large longswords). 3. Then head for Dervish (Complete Warrior). Your feats qualify you for it already and it will help you build up Perform (Dance) ranks to power Snowflake Wardance. So, if an extensive rebuild is possible my suggestion would be Fighter 4 / Sorcerer 2 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Prestige Bard 2 / Dervish 7 (note that this assumes you can Dervish Dance and Snowflake Wardance simultaneously, check with your DM as I don't think there's ever been an official ruling. If he says no, swap the Prestige Bard levels for 2 more Sorcerer). I'd also suggest you consider the Arcane Strike feat (Complete Warrior), though I'm not sure you have enough spell slots to make it worthwhile, and possibly an Extra Music for more Snowflake Wardances per day. Finally, Wraithstrike (Complete Adventurer / Spell Compendium) is an excellent spell that I'd suggest you add to your spells known if it isn't already on there. EDIT - also, since you're high level, are you planning on taking this game into Epic levels? Because if you are your current setup leaves you at least 10 levels away from completing a class with an epic progression - which is really going to hurt you. I'm the Dwarf Favored Soul/Scout/PT EpicNoob mentioned in this campaign, and your build looks good, except for two requirements not mentioned: We cannot PrC until 11th level, so any build needs to include ten levels of base classes. If we are in the middle of a PrC and take levels in a new PrC, we can't take more levels in the old one (like a multi-class pally or monk). On the bright side, the DM allows any number of PrCs, and "Once a class skill, always a class skill" applies in this campaign. On the down side, we were just given the chance to re-work our characters, so switching/dropping levels is probably not an option now that two sessions have passed.
DaveTheMagicWeasel 01-07-07, 01:55 PM	Ok then, Fighter 4 / Paladin 2 (alignment permitting, there are also variant Paladins in Unearthed Arcana) / Sorcerer 4 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Dervish 10 / Epic Dervish... If nowt can be changed; Fighter 7 / Sorcerer 4 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Tempest 3 / Dervish 10 / Epic Dervish... Either way, you ain't gonna be a fully fledged caster any time soon, so just play it as a melee damage dealer with self-buffing ability.