Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tealgorthian 12-25-04, 12:44 AM	In an upcoming Eberron Campagin, I'm playing my TWF staff fighting Druid. I'm using the UA varient that gives up wild shape for Monk AC, Speed, Track and Fast Track (last two as a ranger), I am probably going to straight Druid 20, unless someone here has a bright idea. I tried to run a custom PrC by my DM for this, but he was worried it would upset the other players, because they didnt have a custom one. My stats are 14/16/14/13/18/8 (45 point buy 0_o). My first two feats were Two-Weapon Fighting, and Least Dragonmark (Passage, Diminsional Leap). I wont change the Lest Dragonmark, it's part of the character history, so I will jsut have to bit the bullet. The only books allowed are Core, Complete Series, and XPH. I'd like to find a way to finesse both sides of the staff, and he said I could make a custom feat for that, but I have no idea how to balance feats, so if someone has one that will work made, please link me. I'm thinking at 3rd level I'll tale Combat Expertise. Dodge at 6th. Improved Two-Weapon Fighting at 9th. Improved Combat Expertise at 12th. Quick Staff at 15th, and Greater Two-Weapon Fighting at 18th. Will this work, or not? I'm planning on casting Shillelagh, Spikes, Brambles, and Greater Magic Weaponon my staff. (Does anyone know off hand if Impact and Spikes stack?) Is there anything extraordinary I am missing? And what is a good PrC for this character, if any? He's a Gatekeeper, but I cant figure out how to work that feat in :| Thanks!
Agnarr 12-25-04, 04:07 AM	Quick Staff requires Weapon Focus in quarterstaff as a pre-requisite.
Thraxious 12-25-04, 04:16 PM	Sorry for the aside.. but what book is Quick Staff from? Thanks!
Lago AM3P 12-25-04, 04:21 PM	TWF... staff... druid? Okay. Do you have Masters of the Wild? Get a wilding quarterstaff. For crying out loud, don't give up wildshape. Sheesh. It's the thing that makes druids the king pimps of diplomacy, scouting, combat, and nuke platforms. If you really want monk AC so badly, get a monk's belt and a wilding clasp. The animal forms you choose will probably be faster than the monk levels, and you'll eventually want to fly anyway. Even if you never plan to fight in wildshape, you will still want to keep this ability because of the spell nature's favor in Complete Divine. You get a +1 luck bonus to attack and damage per TWO caster levels, with NO limit. Why divine favor got nerfed and not this is beyond me. Anyway, the real point is to change into an animal, cast this spell (quickened), and then change back. It's a waste of time and an action, but whatever.
CoreDex 12-25-04, 04:49 PM	Even if you never plan to fight in wildshape, you will still want to keep this ability because of the spell nature's favor in Complete Divine. You get a +1 luck bonus to attack and damage per TWO caster levels, with NO limit. Why divine favor got nerfed and not this is beyond me. Anyway, the real point is to change into an animal, cast this spell (quickened), and then change back. It's a waste of time and an action, but whatever. Maybe he wants to play a different type of druid, and is just trying to get the most out of it... Natures Favor did get nerfed here (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/CompDiv_Errata09102004.zip), and how did Divine Favor get nerfed? CoreDex
Lago AM3P 12-25-04, 04:54 PM	Maybe he wants to play a different type of druid, and is just trying to get the most out of it... Then if you're trying to get the most out of it, then for god's sake don't give up wildshape. It is possible to get everything relevant that this man wants out of giving up wildshape without actually giving up wildshape, so there's no reason to pursue this self-destructive behavior. Natures Favor did get nerfed here (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/CompDiv_Errata09102004.zip), and how did Divine Favor get nerfed? CoreDex My bad. To my dismay, however, there still isn't an upper limit after the errata. Divine favor got nerfed in 3.5E errata by providing a maximum cap of +3 to damage and attack.
Tealgorthian 12-25-04, 06:10 PM	... Okay. I dont think I was clear. I DONT WANT TO WILDSHAPE. I dispise the ability, and polymorph. I dont want to do it. It's not an option. And you know, god forbid that someone make a druid that doesnt want to change into a Legendary Ape or something equally stupid looking for a 45 str. Been there, done that. It's an old t-shirt. I want something new. This is something new. I guess I'll just have to squeeze Weapon Focus in somewhere. Since my main spells are gonna be self buffs, I might just take two levels of fighter in there, and take Practiced Spellcaster, but I am not going to bother till after I get a good duration on my Spikes. I hate giving up the extra 9th level spell per day though X| So feats I need are Weapon Focus, Combat Expertise, Improved Two Weapon Fighting and Improved COmbat Expertise and Quick Staff. Oy. I guess I'll just wing it ;p Maybe instead of the defensive angle, I'll monkey grip a bigger stick. In the midst of telling me I should keep Wildshape, Lago AM3P mentioned something useful, which is a Monks Belt will give me an AC boost, since my ability is "as monk". It is possible to get everything relevant that this man wants out of giving up wildshape without actually giving up wildshape, so there's no reason to pursue this self-destructive behavior. Except the same flavor. I dont mean to sound like an ass (3 hours sleep playing Santa for the kids), so I truely apologize if I sound like one. But I'm sick of having a spreedsheet to keep track of my Wizard's and Druid's various forms. I'm starting at level 1, so buying a monks belt right off really isnt an option. I realize I could carry around an enchanted tree, and wildshape into an ape and use it as a Quarterstaff, but that isnt what I am going for. It's a concept. It looks fun. It's a Monk/Druid hybrid. I wasnt planning on using Wildshape at all, and I stumbled on the monk ac varient. In short, I -know- I could do it with Wildshape, and do vast amounts more damage. But. This fits in better with the concept I had in mind. Carrying a 8 page document of animal and elemental forms sucks.
Lago AM3P 12-25-04, 06:23 PM	You could also just take a monk level then the rest druid levels. But I'm curious as to why you want the druid class if you absolutely despise wildshaping. There are PrCs out there that give out better skill lists and class features, sans-wildshape, and the Druid spell-list isn't ass-grabblingly great if you don't plan to buff it up. What exactly do you want your character to get out of non-wildshape druid levels? I find your request curious, like a paladin who doesn't want to use a mount, lay on hands, and smiting yet doesn't really want anything unique in return.
TalinXT 12-25-04, 07:18 PM	Don't go druid go cleric. Take the war domina and select staff that will get you weapon focus and soem domain powers plus any other y domain you may need (isn't there one in eberron that lets you turn or rebuke aberrations? not sure don't have one in front of me now.) You'll get better self buff and you can still eb nature lovin and you can put yourself in the same restrictions as a druid no problem. Though if you insist on being a druid everyones right dont get rid of wildshape if you dont use it at least take the Wild Feats. that way you can still use up tyour wildshape but use it for different abilities.
catharz 12-25-04, 09:27 PM	Druids have the advantage of more skill points/level than clerics, as well as (often) more versatile spells. Plus, WotC has a massive hardon for them: Apparently Wildshape, Spontanious casting, Armor proficiency, and Animal companion is worth Fast movement +10' (as a barbarian), Rage, Tireless rage, Monk AC, Fast movement (as a monk), Favored enemy, Swift tracker, and Track (this is the Druidic avenger + No-wildshape druid). You're trading 1/4 of your class for two whole classes worth of abilities! Of course, if you're going for full-ahead powergaming it still isn't worth it, but for this character it seems to work perfectly. So, on to the build... Elusive target is something I would rate as an absolutely neccesary defensive feat. Superior expertise, Karmic strike, and Allied defense [Shining South] are all nice too. And if you're going to be a goodie-goodie, Harper paragon would be awesome for this character (although I would skip on the Avenger variant). Druid 10/Harper paragon 10 would give you (if you take your levels in the right order) Favored enemy (evil) +7. As well as smite 3/day, 20 levels of celestial animal companion, the ability to cast spells as if you were a celestial, and 10 levels of bardic-type knowledge. Plus BAB+14, saves of 10/10/10, 4 skill points per level (with a great list), and 10d8+10d10 hd.
Tealgorthian 12-25-04, 11:55 PM	You could also just take a monk level then the rest druid levels. But I'm curious as to why you want the druid class if you absolutely despise wildshaping. There are PrCs out there that give out better skill lists and class features, sans-wildshape, and the Druid spell-list isn't ass-grabblingly great if you don't plan to buff it up. What exactly do you want your character to get out of non-wildshape druid levels? I find your request curious, like a paladin who doesn't want to use a mount, lay on hands, and smiting yet doesn't really want anything unique in return. A fair question, and the answer is: the staff spells. Shillelagh will let me use the staff as if it were two sizes larger in respect to damage, Spikes with give me a damage/attack bonus, and double crit treat range, brambles will give me -another- damage/attack bonus. Plus, animal companions can be painfully powerful. I'm looking at a wolf companion, that I can (Greater) Magic Fang, Animal Growth etc. And if you play Eberron (which you might not, I have no idea) the Gatekeepr Organization is nifty, and I like the flavor. I find it hard to justify playing a cleric that worships nature rather than a Druid. Mostly, it's flavor, I'll admit. I dont have my Complete Divine at hand, but I dont think Clerics get Spikes and Brambles. I know they dont get Shillelagh. Besides. It's pretty bad ass to have your caster stat add to your AC. Don't go druid go cleric. Again, I find it hard to play a nature cleric without being a druid. It just.. feels silly. It's not a bad idea, but I am not playing with a full-on powergaming, crush everything that stands in our way, group. I dunno what everyone else is gonna be playing even. I might end up being the secondary tank! (My wife is gonna be the primary. How weird is that?) Plus, WotC has a massive hardon for them: Apparently Wildshape, Spontanious casting, Armor proficiency, and Animal companion is worth Fast movement +10' (as a barbarian), Rage, Tireless rage, Monk AC, Fast movement (as a monk), Favored enemy, Swift tracker, and Track (this is the Druidic avenger + No-wildshape druid). I might do that. Is it really worth it to dump the animal companion and spontaneous summon to get Rage, Barbarian fast movement, and Favored Enemy? I wouldnt mind having FE (Aberrations). Elusive target is something I would rate as an absolutely neccesary defensive feat. Superior expertise, Karmic strike, and Allied defense [Shining South] are all nice too. Awesome, I can take all of those except Allied Defense (no FR, same for the Harper Paragon) Since my other computer just died, I'm going to repair that.. and check in after I figure everything out in my head. Yay for crappy psus.
Lago AM3P 12-26-04, 12:09 AM	Shillegah... feh. Shillegah does not stack with magical weapons. This will eventually (actually, rather quickly) make the spell obsolete. Clerics get access to spikes and brambles. Clerics can also wear monk belts. However, it's not as good, since armor is usually better for them. But then again, in 3.5E, druids can also wear armor and more likely than not get bigger bonuses from it. Again, I find it hard to play a nature cleric without being a druid. It just.. feels silly. If the title is what's the hang-up... then, seriously, just erase the word cleric from your character sheet and write in 'druid'. All of the druid's flavor can be completely transposed to a cleric with the plant and animal domains. I am dead serious. The only flavor that they don't have is the secret druid language--and it would be wholly unreasonable if your DM wouldn't let your character take this language. The animal companion starts sucking hard, and fast. I'm not kidding. Animal hit die are some of the worst in the game and they get no class features. You can pick up elemental or animal turning and get better animal companions. --- Or, failing that, you could convince your DM to let you take Shaman levels from Oriental Adventures. From what I heard, I believe that that class would be perfect for you. It's a really strong druid/cleric hybrid that doesn't have wildshape but gives you combat utility and mystical nature powers.
LordArkan 12-26-04, 12:52 AM	Some people here might want to double check the CoC. Jeebus. That said, I was working on a staff fighter build of my own using both Druid variants out of Unearthed Arcana. However, I don't think the fast movement from Monk and Barbarian stack (isn't there something about having two abilities that give a similar bonus that have the exact same name?)
Agnarr 12-26-04, 03:29 AM	Thraxious Quick Staff is a weapon style feat from Complete Warrior.
Tealgorthian 12-26-04, 06:34 PM	Lago, it's taken me awhile to post a reply, because I am kinda hot-headed. But, really, all there is to say is Gatekeepers, as an organization, are -not- Clerics. They are Druids. The more martially minded are Rangers, maybe with levels in the Eldeen Ranger PrC. How do you play a Cleric in an organization that has no clerics? In the characters past, he was trained by a Druid. He was taught to fight by a ranger. I can only assume you dont play in Eberron? That said, what is a better feat? Quick Staff, or Elusive Target? It looks like I need to pick between the two because of a lack of feats.
TheGregorian 12-26-04, 06:45 PM	... Okay. I dont think I was clear. I DONT WANT TO WILDSHAPE. I dispise the ability, and polymorph. I dont want to do it. It's not an option. And you know, god forbid that someone make a druid that doesnt want to change into a Legendary Ape or something equally stupid looking for a 45 str. Been there, done that. It's an old t-shirt. I want something new. This is something new. Well... if you don't like functional Characters.... Be a half elf. A character that you'll really like is a Half Elf Bard... make sure not to get too much dex or Cha though because you'll be power gaming then. Just boost up your Wis because you'll want to be a wise bard. That'll help your diplomacy... not the skill... but you'll be more wise... chicks dig that. ... oh no he's got a +2 to his strength!! POWER GAMER!!! ... get the hose.
Tealgorthian 12-26-04, 06:48 PM	YOu know, nevermind. Forget I asked. Apperently anything that deviates from the norm isnt welcome around here.
Anguirus23 12-26-04, 10:15 PM	Tealgorthian, I hope you don't let a rude few drive you off. Wildshape isn't my favorite thing either, which is why I've never played a druid. Your concept sounds like a lot of fun to me. Elusive Target is an absolutely awesome feat, but Quick Staff sounds great for your character flavor-wise. Just go with your gut on this one, I suppose.