Abuse of the MT, can this be TRUE? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Abuse of the MT, can this be TRUE? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
gammelpot
06-20-04, 06:28 PM Hi, i just sat down and read DOTF and an idea just popped into my head:

Can this be true?

Clr3/wiz3/MT1/ class that gives you +1 existing class = level progrssion in MT.

Eg.

Clr3/Wiz3/mt1/inquisitor10

effective spellcasterlvl

Clr13/wiz13/mt11/inquisitor10:OMG!

Im doin it and by god i am powerfull:devil:

But is it Legal?
Balthanon
06-20-04, 06:39 PM This has been addressed at length before and the short answer is no, it is not legal. You need an existing spell progression, i.e. spells per day/spells known (wizard, cleric, blackguard, ur-priest, ranger, etc...), to apply a +1 spellcasting level and the mystic theurge doesn't have its own progression, it enhances two others instead.
gammelpot
06-20-04, 06:41 PM :banghead:
Amadeo
06-20-04, 06:53 PM MT is not a spellcasting class itself. It "only" increases the levels of one of your previous arcane spellcasting class and one of your previous divine spellcasting class.

Your build would have the following consequences:

clr 3 + wiz 3 + mt 1 + inq 10 = clr 14 & wiz 4

The MT is not as powerful as it seems because of two reasons:

1.- you are always three levels below a "pure" arcane or divine
spellcaster

2.- the MT has only 10 levels (before going epic), so you can´t
be clr3/wiz3/ MT 14 (that would be interesting

If you want "power" and not versatility don´t take MT, or use it in conjunction with the ur-priest.
guarnasco
06-20-04, 08:37 PM well...

MT 14, it would be intresting to find a neglected prc that does something similar to the mystic teurge....

may be when they realese the complete arcane...

or any eberron madness, dragon cheese or dragonlance munch..
CrimsonRyoko
06-20-04, 08:51 PM ClassX/ClassY/Mystic Theurge/Geomancer can be fun.

Oh and MT is ALOT easier to play with CD out since you have Practiced spellcaster Feat.
ck2001wendt
06-21-04, 04:33 AM What about an Arcane Anything 7\Apostle of Peace 2\MT 8\Arcane anything 3?

-9th level Divine through 10th level Apostle of Peace casting (admittedly limited spell list).

-9th level Arcane through whatever Arcane goodness you try and include (CL 18).

It would be the "Good" MT\Ur Priest...you lose Caster progression against straight casters during the middle levels, but you´ve caught up by level 16, and you would be a pretty good Counterspeller.
Vodalen
06-21-04, 06:08 AM Originally posted by ck2001wendt
What about an Arcane Anything 7\Apostle of Peace 2\MT 8\Arcane anything 3?

-9th level Divine through 10th level Apostle of Peace casting (admittedly limited spell list).

-9th level Arcane through whatever Arcane goodness you try and include (CL 18).

It would be the "Good" MT\Ur Priest...you lose Caster progression against straight casters during the middle levels, but you´ve caught up by level 16, and you would be a pretty good Counterspeller.

Using the Apostle instead of the Ur-Priest is often mentioned as the 'good' MT min/max build. However, from a power perspective, the Ur-Priest wins out. AoP have to choose spells from a restrictive list, Ur-Priest can cast all cleric spells. AoP have the incredibly restrictive vows, Ur-Priest can stomp your teeth in while smiling.
Amadeo
06-21-04, 11:35 AM As Vodalen states, the AoP ins´t allowed to do do a lot of things. Only very experienced players with a lot patience and bored of normal gameplay should take this build.

The Ur priest build is VERY powerful, you get high level spells and some nasty abilities. Don´t think twice, follow me to the dark side :b:
samoosa691
06-21-04, 12:40 PM does anyone not think that the practiced spellcaster feat is ubber broken?

edited for spelling.
Grim Sage
06-21-04, 12:44 PM It helps the class not suck, it's hardly broken...
ck2001wendt
06-21-04, 01:46 PM ------------------------------------------------------
As Vodalen states, the AoP ins´t allowed to do do a lot of things. Only very experienced players with a lot patience and bored of normal gameplay should take this build.

The Ur priest build is VERY powerful, you get high level spells and some nasty abilities. Don´t think twice, follow me to the dark side
-------------------------------------------------------

You are both correct mechanically.

However, when I think "Character Optimization," as I see it there are two objectives:

1. How good can I make this build?; and
2. What can I get past my DM?

For example, no sane DM would ever let a player use a Hulking Hurler unless the objective of a campaign was brokenness incarnate. On the other hand, you could probably sneak a Hulking Thrower past them (using Returning Collosal Orcish shotput for 5d6 damage a hit as a Standard Action, and taking a solemn vow never to throw mountains).

Similarly, since most campaigns are "Good" oriented and most DMs ARE sane, the chances of getting an MT\Ur-Priest into a campaign are jack and ****. You MIGHT, on the other hand, be able to convince a DM in a sufficiently goody-two-shoes campaign that this build fits right in, and the limitations keep it reasonable.

It´s like a (young) Muhammed Ali trying to convince you to fight him. No way do you do it in a "by the rules" fight. But if he promises to tie one arm tied behind his back, you start to overevaluate your chances...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
gammelpot 06-20-04, 06:28 PM	Hi, i just sat down and read DOTF and an idea just popped into my head: Can this be true? Clr3/wiz3/MT1/ class that gives you +1 existing class = level progrssion in MT. Eg. Clr3/Wiz3/mt1/inquisitor10 effective spellcasterlvl Clr13/wiz13/mt11/inquisitor10:OMG! Im doin it and by god i am powerfull:devil: But is it Legal?
Balthanon 06-20-04, 06:39 PM	This has been addressed at length before and the short answer is no, it is not legal. You need an existing spell progression, i.e. spells per day/spells known (wizard, cleric, blackguard, ur-priest, ranger, etc...), to apply a +1 spellcasting level and the mystic theurge doesn't have its own progression, it enhances two others instead.
gammelpot 06-20-04, 06:41 PM	:banghead:
Amadeo 06-20-04, 06:53 PM	MT is not a spellcasting class itself. It "only" increases the levels of one of your previous arcane spellcasting class and one of your previous divine spellcasting class. Your build would have the following consequences: clr 3 + wiz 3 + mt 1 + inq 10 = clr 14 & wiz 4 The MT is not as powerful as it seems because of two reasons: 1.- you are always three levels below a "pure" arcane or divine spellcaster 2.- the MT has only 10 levels (before going epic), so you can´t be clr3/wiz3/ MT 14 (that would be interesting If you want "power" and not versatility don´t take MT, or use it in conjunction with the ur-priest.
guarnasco 06-20-04, 08:37 PM	well... MT 14, it would be intresting to find a neglected prc that does something similar to the mystic teurge.... may be when they realese the complete arcane... or any eberron madness, dragon cheese or dragonlance munch..
CrimsonRyoko 06-20-04, 08:51 PM	ClassX/ClassY/Mystic Theurge/Geomancer can be fun. Oh and MT is ALOT easier to play with CD out since you have Practiced spellcaster Feat.
ck2001wendt 06-21-04, 04:33 AM	What about an Arcane Anything 7\Apostle of Peace 2\MT 8\Arcane anything 3? -9th level Divine through 10th level Apostle of Peace casting (admittedly limited spell list). -9th level Arcane through whatever Arcane goodness you try and include (CL 18). It would be the "Good" MT\Ur Priest...you lose Caster progression against straight casters during the middle levels, but you´ve caught up by level 16, and you would be a pretty good Counterspeller.
Vodalen 06-21-04, 06:08 AM	Originally posted by ck2001wendt What about an Arcane Anything 7\Apostle of Peace 2\MT 8\Arcane anything 3? -9th level Divine through 10th level Apostle of Peace casting (admittedly limited spell list). -9th level Arcane through whatever Arcane goodness you try and include (CL 18). It would be the "Good" MT\Ur Priest...you lose Caster progression against straight casters during the middle levels, but you´ve caught up by level 16, and you would be a pretty good Counterspeller. Using the Apostle instead of the Ur-Priest is often mentioned as the 'good' MT min/max build. However, from a power perspective, the Ur-Priest wins out. AoP have to choose spells from a restrictive list, Ur-Priest can cast all cleric spells. AoP have the incredibly restrictive vows, Ur-Priest can stomp your teeth in while smiling.
Amadeo 06-21-04, 11:35 AM	As Vodalen states, the AoP ins´t allowed to do do a lot of things. Only very experienced players with a lot patience and bored of normal gameplay should take this build. The Ur priest build is VERY powerful, you get high level spells and some nasty abilities. Don´t think twice, follow me to the dark side :b:
samoosa691 06-21-04, 12:40 PM	does anyone not think that the practiced spellcaster feat is ubber broken? edited for spelling.
Grim Sage 06-21-04, 12:44 PM	It helps the class not suck, it's hardly broken...
ck2001wendt 06-21-04, 01:46 PM	------------------------------------------------------ As Vodalen states, the AoP ins´t allowed to do do a lot of things. Only very experienced players with a lot patience and bored of normal gameplay should take this build. The Ur priest build is VERY powerful, you get high level spells and some nasty abilities. Don´t think twice, follow me to the dark side ------------------------------------------------------- You are both correct mechanically. However, when I think "Character Optimization," as I see it there are two objectives: 1. How good can I make this build?; and 2. What can I get past my DM? For example, no sane DM would ever let a player use a Hulking Hurler unless the objective of a campaign was brokenness incarnate. On the other hand, you could probably sneak a Hulking Thrower past them (using Returning Collosal Orcish shotput for 5d6 damage a hit as a Standard Action, and taking a solemn vow never to throw mountains). Similarly, since most campaigns are "Good" oriented and most DMs ARE sane, the chances of getting an MT\Ur-Priest into a campaign are jack and ****. You MIGHT, on the other hand, be able to convince a DM in a sufficiently goody-two-shoes campaign that this build fits right in, and the limitations keep it reasonable. It´s like a (young) Muhammed Ali trying to convince you to fight him. No way do you do it in a "by the rules" fight. But if he promises to tie one arm tied behind his back, you start to overevaluate your chances...