Abuse that Sanctum Spell! Abuse it good! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Abuse that Sanctum Spell! Abuse it good! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
RadicalTaoist
02-17-06, 12:31 PM T_G pointed out here that you can use Sanctum Spell to "lower" spell levels, opening up great options for Affinity Field. I read this and thought: hey, doesn't this mean we can do the same for Contingency? 7th level spells are now fair game.
And if you liked that: remember the Spell Matrix/Sequencer/Trigger spells in the Spell Compendium (previously the Simbul's, first printed in Magic of Faerun and later in the PGtF IIRC)? Guess what you can fit into them now? :devil:
Kresalak
02-17-06, 01:10 PM Here's a nice one. Contingency (Spell Turning). Never be ambushed by enemy spellcasters again!

Or Contingency (Energy Immunity). This is less useful, since Energy Immunity lasts 24 hours automatically.

Which brings up an interesting thing for energy immunity. Cast it after resting, then rest and regain spells again. You are immune to one energy type for the next 16 hours, at absolutely no cost.
PhaedrusXY
02-17-06, 01:20 PM Which brings up an interesting thing for energy immunity. Cast it after resting, then rest and regain spells again. You are immune to one energy type for the next 16 hours, at absolutely no cost.You can't do that for at least two reasons. Go read up on the rules on resting and preparing spells.
Kresalak
02-17-06, 01:36 PM I just reread them, and the only change I could see is needing 9 hours- 8 to rest after casting the spell so it doesn't go against the daily limit, 1 to memorize new spells. What did you find that would invalidate that trick?
Lokiyn
02-17-06, 03:51 PM for more evilness consider them following,
if sanctum spell does indeed lower the spell level (i'm a.f.b. atm) then the runesmith dwarf class opens up quite a few options, for example spell-like ice assassin, wish, etc ;)
RadicalTaoist
02-17-06, 04:42 PM for more evilness consider them following,
if sanctum spell does indeed lower the spell level (i'm a.f.b. atm) then the runesmith dwarf class opens up quite a few options, for example spell-like ice assassin, wish, etc ;)
BRILLIANCE.
:bow:
Lokiyn
02-17-06, 05:49 PM Excellent, using my favorite wizard build as shown here

http://boards.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=459819

with Sanctum i can scribe a wish rune at level 18.

So instead of going from 18->19 i could scribe a wish[18,000] rune which would allow me to wish for magical items that are up to 162,500 gp in value twice per day

(18,000-5000)= 13000/2 = 6500*25= 162500...

Sweet.....
Tleilaxu_Ghola
02-17-06, 05:52 PM for more evilness consider them following,
if sanctum spell does indeed lower the spell level (i'm a.f.b. atm) then the runesmith dwarf class opens up quite a few options, for example spell-like ice assassin, wish, etc ;)

Derr.... :drool:

Can you apply metamagic to spell-like abilities? Could you, for example, have a maximized fireball as a permanent rune? If so then that trick is green for go.

But I think there is a bit of a problem with it: the sanctum spell occupies the same slot as the original spell would. Permanent rune states "to inscribe a permanent rune, a runesmith must permantenly sacrifice an arcane spell SLOT of one level higher than the spell to be inscribed."

Now if the spell is considered to be 8th level, and therefore it would occupy the 9th level slot, I can see your point.

Alternatively one could argue that if we're just talking about spell-level here (as you are Lokiyn) then I could have all the metamagic feats in the world applied to my 8th level spells and then make permanent runes of them, as metamagic feats (except heighten) do not change the spell level.

I'm not saying the trick is busted, but I think we should address this chunk of rules first before going on and abusing it.
Kresalak
02-17-06, 05:56 PM And Complete Arcane yields us more brokenness. What mysteries do Complete Psionics and Complete Mage hold for us?

I wonder, could applying Sanctum Spell decrease the DC for an Artificer to apply metamagic to an item?
Caelic
02-17-06, 05:57 PM There definitely needs to be consistency--we really can't say that, on the one hand, Sanctum Spell's "effective level" decrease makes a spell a valid target, but that, on the other hand, other metamagic feats' "effective level" increase don't make the spell invalid.
Kresalak
02-17-06, 06:03 PM I would say that Sanctum Spell would make it, as long as you used it outside your sanctum, a [effectively] lower level spell, since it specifically states "all effects depending on spell level (including DCs) are calculated according to the adjusted level."
RadicalTaoist
03-22-06, 10:02 AM Oh, good Jeebus. The Spell Storing Weapon Enhancement!
Let's stuff Baleful Polymorph, Enervation, and Lower Spell Resistance into those weapons.
Tleilaxu_Ghola
03-22-06, 01:00 PM Isn't baleful polymorph 5th level? I though spell storing could only hold 3rd level and below. Sanctum spell would only drop it down to 4th.
Feeb
03-22-06, 01:24 PM Can you apply metamagic to spell-like abilities?

There are specific metamagic feats that apply to SLA's (they tend to work on the 3/day model.) MM, CA and the new ToM have examples (such as Empower Spell-Like ability (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#empowerSpellLikeAbility ))
RadicalTaoist
03-22-06, 02:53 PM Isn't baleful polymorph 5th level? I though spell storing could only hold 3rd level and below. Sanctum spell would only drop it down to 4th.
Oops. So it is.
Still, this is very helpful.
Todd
03-22-06, 02:57 PM Agreed. Nice catch!
Lokiyn
03-22-06, 03:17 PM Oh, good Jeebus. The Spell Storing Weapon Enhancement!
Let's stuff Baleful Polymorph, Enervation, and Lower Spell Resistance into those weapons.

i have a better idea, Eternal wands and potions, in fact any magic item creation.

Eternal wand of animate dead, reincarnate, or stoneskin anyone?
RadicalTaoist
03-23-06, 08:07 PM I don't think it works. However if it does, forget what the casters can already use. Let's. Talk. Potions. Now, we have potions of Polymorph, Consumptive Field, Divine Power...
Kresalak
03-23-06, 09:09 PM For something simple, using this inside your sanctum could let you use Extra spell to grab 9th level spells. Similar to the trick with the Miracle at 6th level.

Potion of Divine Power is great, since Divine Power works of your character level, not caster level.

Spell Storing can net you Black Tentacles stored. Just make sure to cast Freedom of Movement on yourself first.

Or use a Sanctum potion!

What's an Eternal Wand?
Tleilaxu_Ghola
03-23-06, 09:23 PM Potions! Of course! Now we're thinking. Also, opens up wands of draconic polymorph... mmmm....
Lokiyn
03-23-06, 09:31 PM An eternal wand is an item that lets "any" caster of arcane spells use it regardless of thier class list and allows the storage of up to level 3 and cl of 6th.

The reason that you can't use eternal wands with this trick is that while it lowers the spell level by one you still have that niggly 7th level caster even though its now a third level spell. However if you do make the argument that its considered a 3rd level spell outside your sanctum then you could also argue that when you craft an item of it you could slide it into the wand with a caster level of 6. However i don't buy that.

Potions are a wonderful wonderful thing.
Shaggy_Shaggs
03-23-06, 09:37 PM Could an artificer get around that requirement for 6th caster level or under for eternal wands? Maybe an artificer/chameleon using the floating feat to temporarily pick up Mage Slayer and drop his caster level?
Lokiyn
03-23-06, 09:40 PM No clue, the only thing is if you consider the caster level tied to the adjusted spell level rather than the original spell level. Which i doubt since the original spell slot is retained.
Mystic Ninja
03-23-06, 09:41 PM Could you stack this with Innate Spell? Any 2nd level spell at will sounds allright to me... The only one I can think of just now [a.f.b.] is scorching ray, but hey I'm sure theres far better ones.
ZeroEffect
03-23-06, 10:04 PM This doesn't work. A 5th level spell cast outside the sanctum is still a 5th level spell, just with weaker effects. It's "effective" level is lower. It's not a lower level spell. The lower spell level statement is intended as a drawback to casting a sanctum spell outside of your sanctum.
psly4mne
03-23-06, 10:19 PM This doesn't work. If you think it works, at best you're really stretching things, at worst you're delusional. A 5th level spell cast outside the sanctum is still a 5th level spell, just with weaker effects. It's not a lower level spell.
Tell that to Mr. Lesser Globe of Invulnerability. You can't have it both ways.
... the spell has an effective level 1 lower than normal. All effects dependent on spell level (including save DCs) are calculated according to the adjusted level.
Did you even read the feat? ALL EFFECTS DEPENDENT ON SPELL LEVEL. Including whether in can be cast into a spell storing weapon. Including whether it works with Contingency. Including everything mentioned here (except maybe Runesmith).
I think "all effects dependent on spell level" is pretty clear.
RadicalTaoist
03-23-06, 10:20 PM I'd agree with you as far as crafting, perhaps - it doesn't actually occupy a lower level slot, and when you craft it isn't cast.
However, spells like Contingency and Imbue with Spell Ability don't care about that. Sanctum Spell says "if not cast in your sanctum, the spell has an effective spell level of 1 lower than normal. All effects dependant on spell level (including save DCs) are calculated according to the adjusted level."
All effects. Nicely open ended. This is quite the rules debate.

EDIT: Consumptive Field is 4th level, right? :devil:
Lokiyn
03-23-06, 10:26 PM Sanctum Spell [Metamagic]Your Spells are Especially Potent on Home groundPrerequisite:Any Metamagic Feat.Benefit:A Sanctum spell has an effective level 1 higher than its normal level if cast in your sanctum (See below), But if not cast in the sanctum, the spell has an effective spell level 1 lower than normal. All effects Dependent on spell level (including save DCs) are calculated according to the adjusted level.A sanctum spell Uses a spell slot of the spell's normal level

Ok given this is the actual text lets now highlight this to observe the key points

Sanctum Spell [Metamagic]Your Spells are Especially Potent on Home groundPrerequisite:Any Metamagic Feat.Benefit:A Sanctum spell has an effective level 1 higher than its normal level if cast in your sanctum (See below), But if not cast in the sanctum, the spell has an effective spell level 1 lower than normal. All effects Dependent on spell level (including save DCs) are calculated according to the adjusted level.A sanctum spell Uses a spell slot of the spell's normal level

*edit* darn beaten to it while formatting

Off to the books to look up crafting to look for loopholes, if you can craft items using sanctum spell there might be an interesting combo.

*edit 2*

All item creation feats contain this clause

(That is, those spell slots are expended from his currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.)

According to skippy

To provide a spell prerequisite, a character must have prepared the spell (or know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard). The rules say you can use a spell completion or spell trigger magic item or a spell-like ability that produces the desired spell effect to provide a spell prerequisite. A command or use-activated item cannot provide a spell prerequisite.

*snip*If an item has a spell (or spells) as a prerequisite, you must have the spell or spells available to you at the start of each day that you work on the item; the spell or spells are used up for that day when you begin working on the item. Since you're not actually casting the spell, you don't expend any extra experience or money for expensive material components each day.

Darn, well i suppose one could argue it, and claim that the spell is Virtual-cast at some point. (say the end or beginning, end makes more sense); On the other hand

Each day the sorcerer works on the ring, one of the sorcerer's 2nd-level spells is expended as soon as work on the ring commences. A character relying on a scroll to provide the required invisibility spell would need at least 20 scrolls -- one for each day of working on the ring.

Wait a minute does anyone else see something inconsistant about that....

On the other hand i found more support for my campaign against people using rings of wishes and/or spell like abilities as having infinite exp pools and the "Skip"ings (skips rullings) on items with variable exp costs

In the case of spells that have variable XP costs, your best choice is to allow the character creating the scroll to decide how much extra experience to spend. When someone uses the scroll, what the scroll can accomplish is limited by how much extra experience the creator put into the scroll. Basically a spell like ability has the Minimum exp to produce an effect unless stated otherwise, much like a scroll
ZeroEffect
03-23-06, 11:03 PM Yes, I have read the wording of the feat. I wouldn't have posted if I hadn't studied the wording.

You definitely have found a loophole, but that doesn't mean that it's within the spirit of the rules. It's clear that they intended the lower spell level to be a drawback to casting outside the sanctum. Your interpretation is a truly an "exploit." I can appreciate the optimization exercise of trying to exploit this, and I can even see using it in a campaign that accepts such exploits as a matter of course... But as a DM I would never allow it in one of my campaigns. I made my post because somebody had to be the voice of reason. If this turns into a widely used exploit, you can expect WotC to fix the wording of the feat in errata.

That being said, don't let me ruin your fun. Continue with the exploitation and optimization!!! :D
Tleilaxu_Ghola
03-24-06, 02:48 AM Yes, I have read the wording of the feat. I wouldn't have posted if I hadn't studied the wording.

You definitely have found a loophole, but that doesn't mean that it's within the spirit of the rules. It's clear that they intended the lower spell level to be a drawback to casting outside the sanctum. Your interpretation is a truly an "exploit." I can appreciate the optimization exercise of trying to exploit this, and I can even see using it in a campaign that accepts such exploits as a matter of course... But as a DM I would never allow it in one of my campaigns. I made my post because somebody had to be the voice of reason. If this turns into a widely used exploit, you can expect WotC to fix the wording of the feat in errata.

That being said, don't let me ruin your fun. Continue with the exploitation and optimization!!! :D

When the CO boards use an "exploit" no one at WotC seems to care. Pun-Pun is my prime witness to this statement. But yeah, this is pretty rediculous.

I'll also chip in my argument for the use of sanctum spell + crafting items. Item crafting never depends on the slot the spell takes up. It only depends on level. You can use metamagic feats when crafting your magic items... or at least I think you can. Using sanctum spell is no different than using maximize to make a wand of maximized fireball.

I think the only reqs are that you are able to cast the spell you are imbuing in the item (among any other reqs) once per day for every day you craft it.

In response to Lokiyn's edit #2:

A spell-like ability has no XP component, neither does a supernatural ability. They don't have the minimum XP required to cast it so much as they don't require XP to cast the spell at all. Spells with variable XP expendatures are a funny bit of business. We know that the spell must be castable, else they would have made an explicit exclusion for spell-like abilities with XP costs (prime example would be an efreet's spell-like wish ability). We know that they do not have XP components at all.

The best conclusion that I can draw is that spell-like or supernatural abilities which emulate spells with an XP cost simply omit any lines which refer to XP, material, somatic, verbal, or focus components. This follows from the rules, as these abilities do not have the above components at all.

Yes, yes, this goes against the very core of my Terminator build... I have said for some time that there was a fatal flaw in the Terminator for some time... but never pointed it out because I didn't really have a good fix for it (until now... well sort of, the astute may a find a few more flaws yet in the following solution).

The only fixes I've been able to come up with are the following:
1. SDA create object (or something like that): a capless means of generating an item at the cost of a "rest time." So we conjure ourselves a deity and have him make us the item with that SDA and then kill him while he is "resting." It's a bit tricker to conjure deities now, but that is covered in the second trick...

2. The best I have so far is to either make ice-assassin into a spell-like ability (via archmage) and just suck up the XP cost (a thought bottle will make this less painful) or use the epic feat ignore material components. The latter seems more based in the RAW to me. The former uses the fact that spell-like abilities do not have components, so an spell-like ice assassin wouldn't require a piece of a god to use.

3. Abuse retain essence (artificer) and legendary artisan like feats.
DavidWL
03-24-06, 02:56 AM There's also war weaver (which can stack with the way the bloodline would make his war weaver level appear higher).
runestar
03-24-06, 03:03 AM You can't do that for at least two reasons. Go read up on the rules on resting and preparing spells.

I think you can. The trick is to rest without filling the expended slot with anything(you can't anyways), then 8 hours later, spend 15 minutes filling the now refreshed slot with a spell of your own. :) You don't have to fill in the slot before sleeping...
Gryftir
03-29-06, 08:05 AM The MageSlayer feat from Complete Arcane now drops your effective spellcasting level by 4 for spells or spell-like abilities. Possibly it has the same effects?
Zemyla
03-29-06, 11:52 AM This is rather simple compared to most of the abuses, but Eye of Power (SpC). You can sit in your sanctum and fire 4th level spells through the eye.
Pellanor
03-29-06, 12:38 PM Isn't baleful polymorph 5th level? I though spell storing could only hold 3rd level and below. Sanctum spell would only drop it down to 4th.
Unless you're a Hexblade. They get it as a 4th level spell. Sanctum Spell would drop it down to 3rd for them.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
RadicalTaoist 02-17-06, 12:31 PM	T_G pointed out here that you can use Sanctum Spell to "lower" spell levels, opening up great options for Affinity Field. I read this and thought: hey, doesn't this mean we can do the same for Contingency? 7th level spells are now fair game. And if you liked that: remember the Spell Matrix/Sequencer/Trigger spells in the Spell Compendium (previously the Simbul's, first printed in Magic of Faerun and later in the PGtF IIRC)? Guess what you can fit into them now? :devil:
Kresalak 02-17-06, 01:10 PM	Here's a nice one. Contingency (Spell Turning). Never be ambushed by enemy spellcasters again! Or Contingency (Energy Immunity). This is less useful, since Energy Immunity lasts 24 hours automatically. Which brings up an interesting thing for energy immunity. Cast it after resting, then rest and regain spells again. You are immune to one energy type for the next 16 hours, at absolutely no cost.
PhaedrusXY 02-17-06, 01:20 PM	Which brings up an interesting thing for energy immunity. Cast it after resting, then rest and regain spells again. You are immune to one energy type for the next 16 hours, at absolutely no cost.You can't do that for at least two reasons. Go read up on the rules on resting and preparing spells.
Kresalak 02-17-06, 01:36 PM	I just reread them, and the only change I could see is needing 9 hours- 8 to rest after casting the spell so it doesn't go against the daily limit, 1 to memorize new spells. What did you find that would invalidate that trick?
Lokiyn 02-17-06, 03:51 PM	for more evilness consider them following, if sanctum spell does indeed lower the spell level (i'm a.f.b. atm) then the runesmith dwarf class opens up quite a few options, for example spell-like ice assassin, wish, etc ;)
RadicalTaoist 02-17-06, 04:42 PM	for more evilness consider them following, if sanctum spell does indeed lower the spell level (i'm a.f.b. atm) then the runesmith dwarf class opens up quite a few options, for example spell-like ice assassin, wish, etc ;) BRILLIANCE. :bow:
Lokiyn 02-17-06, 05:49 PM	Excellent, using my favorite wizard build as shown here http://boards.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=459819 with Sanctum i can scribe a wish rune at level 18. So instead of going from 18->19 i could scribe a wish[18,000] rune which would allow me to wish for magical items that are up to 162,500 gp in value twice per day (18,000-5000)= 13000/2 = 6500*25= 162500... Sweet.....
Tleilaxu_Ghola 02-17-06, 05:52 PM	for more evilness consider them following, if sanctum spell does indeed lower the spell level (i'm a.f.b. atm) then the runesmith dwarf class opens up quite a few options, for example spell-like ice assassin, wish, etc ;) Derr.... :drool: Can you apply metamagic to spell-like abilities? Could you, for example, have a maximized fireball as a permanent rune? If so then that trick is green for go. But I think there is a bit of a problem with it: the sanctum spell occupies the same slot as the original spell would. Permanent rune states "to inscribe a permanent rune, a runesmith must permantenly sacrifice an arcane spell SLOT of one level higher than the spell to be inscribed." Now if the spell is considered to be 8th level, and therefore it would occupy the 9th level slot, I can see your point. Alternatively one could argue that if we're just talking about spell-level here (as you are Lokiyn) then I could have all the metamagic feats in the world applied to my 8th level spells and then make permanent runes of them, as metamagic feats (except heighten) do not change the spell level. I'm not saying the trick is busted, but I think we should address this chunk of rules first before going on and abusing it.
Kresalak 02-17-06, 05:56 PM	And Complete Arcane yields us more brokenness. What mysteries do Complete Psionics and Complete Mage hold for us? I wonder, could applying Sanctum Spell decrease the DC for an Artificer to apply metamagic to an item?
Caelic 02-17-06, 05:57 PM	There definitely needs to be consistency--we really can't say that, on the one hand, Sanctum Spell's "effective level" decrease makes a spell a valid target, but that, on the other hand, other metamagic feats' "effective level" increase don't make the spell invalid.
Kresalak 02-17-06, 06:03 PM	I would say that Sanctum Spell would make it, as long as you used it outside your sanctum, a [effectively] lower level spell, since it specifically states "all effects depending on spell level (including DCs) are calculated according to the adjusted level."
RadicalTaoist 03-22-06, 10:02 AM	Oh, good Jeebus. The Spell Storing Weapon Enhancement! Let's stuff Baleful Polymorph, Enervation, and Lower Spell Resistance into those weapons.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 03-22-06, 01:00 PM	Isn't baleful polymorph 5th level? I though spell storing could only hold 3rd level and below. Sanctum spell would only drop it down to 4th.
Feeb 03-22-06, 01:24 PM	Can you apply metamagic to spell-like abilities? There are specific metamagic feats that apply to SLA's (they tend to work on the 3/day model.) MM, CA and the new ToM have examples (such as Empower Spell-Like ability (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#empowerSpellLikeAbility ))
RadicalTaoist 03-22-06, 02:53 PM	Isn't baleful polymorph 5th level? I though spell storing could only hold 3rd level and below. Sanctum spell would only drop it down to 4th. Oops. So it is. Still, this is very helpful.
Todd 03-22-06, 02:57 PM	Agreed. Nice catch!
Lokiyn 03-22-06, 03:17 PM	Oh, good Jeebus. The Spell Storing Weapon Enhancement! Let's stuff Baleful Polymorph, Enervation, and Lower Spell Resistance into those weapons. i have a better idea, Eternal wands and potions, in fact any magic item creation. Eternal wand of animate dead, reincarnate, or stoneskin anyone?
RadicalTaoist 03-23-06, 08:07 PM	I don't think it works. However if it does, forget what the casters can already use. Let's. Talk. Potions. Now, we have potions of Polymorph, Consumptive Field, Divine Power...
Kresalak 03-23-06, 09:09 PM	For something simple, using this inside your sanctum could let you use Extra spell to grab 9th level spells. Similar to the trick with the Miracle at 6th level. Potion of Divine Power is great, since Divine Power works of your character level, not caster level. Spell Storing can net you Black Tentacles stored. Just make sure to cast Freedom of Movement on yourself first. Or use a Sanctum potion! What's an Eternal Wand?
Tleilaxu_Ghola 03-23-06, 09:23 PM	Potions! Of course! Now we're thinking. Also, opens up wands of draconic polymorph... mmmm....
Lokiyn 03-23-06, 09:31 PM	An eternal wand is an item that lets "any" caster of arcane spells use it regardless of thier class list and allows the storage of up to level 3 and cl of 6th. The reason that you can't use eternal wands with this trick is that while it lowers the spell level by one you still have that niggly 7th level caster even though its now a third level spell. However if you do make the argument that its considered a 3rd level spell outside your sanctum then you could also argue that when you craft an item of it you could slide it into the wand with a caster level of 6. However i don't buy that. Potions are a wonderful wonderful thing.
Shaggy_Shaggs 03-23-06, 09:37 PM	Could an artificer get around that requirement for 6th caster level or under for eternal wands? Maybe an artificer/chameleon using the floating feat to temporarily pick up Mage Slayer and drop his caster level?
Lokiyn 03-23-06, 09:40 PM	No clue, the only thing is if you consider the caster level tied to the adjusted spell level rather than the original spell level. Which i doubt since the original spell slot is retained.
Mystic Ninja 03-23-06, 09:41 PM	Could you stack this with Innate Spell? Any 2nd level spell at will sounds allright to me... The only one I can think of just now [a.f.b.] is scorching ray, but hey I'm sure theres far better ones.
ZeroEffect 03-23-06, 10:04 PM	This doesn't work. A 5th level spell cast outside the sanctum is still a 5th level spell, just with weaker effects. It's "effective" level is lower. It's not a lower level spell. The lower spell level statement is intended as a drawback to casting a sanctum spell outside of your sanctum.
psly4mne 03-23-06, 10:19 PM	This doesn't work. If you think it works, at best you're really stretching things, at worst you're delusional. A 5th level spell cast outside the sanctum is still a 5th level spell, just with weaker effects. It's not a lower level spell. Tell that to Mr. Lesser Globe of Invulnerability. You can't have it both ways. ... the spell has an effective level 1 lower than normal. All effects dependent on spell level (including save DCs) are calculated according to the adjusted level. Did you even read the feat? ALL EFFECTS DEPENDENT ON SPELL LEVEL. Including whether in can be cast into a spell storing weapon. Including whether it works with Contingency. Including everything mentioned here (except maybe Runesmith). I think "all effects dependent on spell level" is pretty clear.
RadicalTaoist 03-23-06, 10:20 PM	I'd agree with you as far as crafting, perhaps - it doesn't actually occupy a lower level slot, and when you craft it isn't cast. However, spells like Contingency and Imbue with Spell Ability don't care about that. Sanctum Spell says "if not cast in your sanctum, the spell has an effective spell level of 1 lower than normal. All effects dependant on spell level (including save DCs) are calculated according to the adjusted level." All effects. Nicely open ended. This is quite the rules debate. EDIT: Consumptive Field is 4th level, right? :devil:
Lokiyn 03-23-06, 10:26 PM	Sanctum Spell [Metamagic]Your Spells are Especially Potent on Home groundPrerequisite:Any Metamagic Feat.Benefit:A Sanctum spell has an effective level 1 higher than its normal level if cast in your sanctum (See below), But if not cast in the sanctum, the spell has an effective spell level 1 lower than normal. All effects Dependent on spell level (including save DCs) are calculated according to the adjusted level.A sanctum spell Uses a spell slot of the spell's normal level Ok given this is the actual text lets now highlight this to observe the key points Sanctum Spell [Metamagic]Your Spells are Especially Potent on Home groundPrerequisite:Any Metamagic Feat.Benefit:A Sanctum spell has an effective level 1 higher than its normal level if cast in your sanctum (See below), But if not cast in the sanctum, the spell has an effective spell level 1 lower than normal. All effects Dependent on spell level (including save DCs) are calculated according to the adjusted level.A sanctum spell Uses a spell slot of the spell's normal level edit darn beaten to it while formatting Off to the books to look up crafting to look for loopholes, if you can craft items using sanctum spell there might be an interesting combo. edit 2 All item creation feats contain this clause (That is, those spell slots are expended from his currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.) According to skippy To provide a spell prerequisite, a character must have prepared the spell (or know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard). The rules say you can use a spell completion or spell trigger magic item or a spell-like ability that produces the desired spell effect to provide a spell prerequisite. A command or use-activated item cannot provide a spell prerequisite. snipIf an item has a spell (or spells) as a prerequisite, you must have the spell or spells available to you at the start of each day that you work on the item; the spell or spells are used up for that day when you begin working on the item. Since you're not actually casting the spell, you don't expend any extra experience or money for expensive material components each day. Darn, well i suppose one could argue it, and claim that the spell is Virtual-cast at some point. (say the end or beginning, end makes more sense); On the other hand Each day the sorcerer works on the ring, one of the sorcerer's 2nd-level spells is expended as soon as work on the ring commences. A character relying on a scroll to provide the required invisibility spell would need at least 20 scrolls -- one for each day of working on the ring. Wait a minute does anyone else see something inconsistant about that.... On the other hand i found more support for my campaign against people using rings of wishes and/or spell like abilities as having infinite exp pools and the "Skip"ings (skips rullings) on items with variable exp costs In the case of spells that have variable XP costs, your best choice is to allow the character creating the scroll to decide how much extra experience to spend. When someone uses the scroll, what the scroll can accomplish is limited by how much extra experience the creator put into the scroll. Basically a spell like ability has the Minimum exp to produce an effect unless stated otherwise, much like a scroll
ZeroEffect 03-23-06, 11:03 PM	Yes, I have read the wording of the feat. I wouldn't have posted if I hadn't studied the wording. You definitely have found a loophole, but that doesn't mean that it's within the spirit of the rules. It's clear that they intended the lower spell level to be a drawback to casting outside the sanctum. Your interpretation is a truly an "exploit." I can appreciate the optimization exercise of trying to exploit this, and I can even see using it in a campaign that accepts such exploits as a matter of course... But as a DM I would never allow it in one of my campaigns. I made my post because somebody had to be the voice of reason. If this turns into a widely used exploit, you can expect WotC to fix the wording of the feat in errata. That being said, don't let me ruin your fun. Continue with the exploitation and optimization!!! :D
Tleilaxu_Ghola 03-24-06, 02:48 AM	Yes, I have read the wording of the feat. I wouldn't have posted if I hadn't studied the wording. You definitely have found a loophole, but that doesn't mean that it's within the spirit of the rules. It's clear that they intended the lower spell level to be a drawback to casting outside the sanctum. Your interpretation is a truly an "exploit." I can appreciate the optimization exercise of trying to exploit this, and I can even see using it in a campaign that accepts such exploits as a matter of course... But as a DM I would never allow it in one of my campaigns. I made my post because somebody had to be the voice of reason. If this turns into a widely used exploit, you can expect WotC to fix the wording of the feat in errata. That being said, don't let me ruin your fun. Continue with the exploitation and optimization!!! :D When the CO boards use an "exploit" no one at WotC seems to care. Pun-Pun is my prime witness to this statement. But yeah, this is pretty rediculous. I'll also chip in my argument for the use of sanctum spell + crafting items. Item crafting never depends on the slot the spell takes up. It only depends on level. You can use metamagic feats when crafting your magic items... or at least I think you can. Using sanctum spell is no different than using maximize to make a wand of maximized fireball. I think the only reqs are that you are able to cast the spell you are imbuing in the item (among any other reqs) once per day for every day you craft it. In response to Lokiyn's edit #2: A spell-like ability has no XP component, neither does a supernatural ability. They don't have the minimum XP required to cast it so much as they don't require XP to cast the spell at all. Spells with variable XP expendatures are a funny bit of business. We know that the spell must be castable, else they would have made an explicit exclusion for spell-like abilities with XP costs (prime example would be an efreet's spell-like wish ability). We know that they do not have XP components at all. The best conclusion that I can draw is that spell-like or supernatural abilities which emulate spells with an XP cost simply omit any lines which refer to XP, material, somatic, verbal, or focus components. This follows from the rules, as these abilities do not have the above components at all. Yes, yes, this goes against the very core of my Terminator build... I have said for some time that there was a fatal flaw in the Terminator for some time... but never pointed it out because I didn't really have a good fix for it (until now... well sort of, the astute may a find a few more flaws yet in the following solution). The only fixes I've been able to come up with are the following: 1. SDA create object (or something like that): a capless means of generating an item at the cost of a "rest time." So we conjure ourselves a deity and have him make us the item with that SDA and then kill him while he is "resting." It's a bit tricker to conjure deities now, but that is covered in the second trick... 2. The best I have so far is to either make ice-assassin into a spell-like ability (via archmage) and just suck up the XP cost (a thought bottle will make this less painful) or use the epic feat ignore material components. The latter seems more based in the RAW to me. The former uses the fact that spell-like abilities do not have components, so an spell-like ice assassin wouldn't require a piece of a god to use. 3. Abuse retain essence (artificer) and legendary artisan like feats.
DavidWL 03-24-06, 02:56 AM	There's also war weaver (which can stack with the way the bloodline would make his war weaver level appear higher).
runestar 03-24-06, 03:03 AM	You can't do that for at least two reasons. Go read up on the rules on resting and preparing spells. I think you can. The trick is to rest without filling the expended slot with anything(you can't anyways), then 8 hours later, spend 15 minutes filling the now refreshed slot with a spell of your own. :) You don't have to fill in the slot before sleeping...
Gryftir 03-29-06, 08:05 AM	The MageSlayer feat from Complete Arcane now drops your effective spellcasting level by 4 for spells or spell-like abilities. Possibly it has the same effects?
Zemyla 03-29-06, 11:52 AM	This is rather simple compared to most of the abuses, but Eye of Power (SpC). You can sit in your sanctum and fire 4th level spells through the eye.
Pellanor 03-29-06, 12:38 PM	Isn't baleful polymorph 5th level? I though spell storing could only hold 3rd level and below. Sanctum spell would only drop it down to 4th. Unless you're a Hexblade. They get it as a 4th level spell. Sanctum Spell would drop it down to 3rd for them.