Abusing Rituals/Teaching my DM to DM [Archive] - Wizards Community

Abusing Rituals/Teaching my DM to DM [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
gabrion
10-06-05, 04:06 AM Ok, so I'm playing with a DM who needs to be taught a bit of a lesson and I hope you guys can help. In case you are concerned about my attitude, let me make it clear that I am not trying to break his game, I'm just trying to come up with a way of showing him that his house rule is broken.

Background....

We are starting at 15th level (112,500 XP) with all sources allowed, yada, yada, yada. One player made a necropolitan PC that had the same exact starting XP as everyone else. I pointed out that the PC should be behind by a certain amount of XP because of the level lost in the ritual to turn him into a necropolitan and I pointed out the appropriate rules. The exact amount would depend on the level at which the PC had the ritual done (lower levels being better for him), but none the less he would be behind in XP. The DM replied that that was not the case because the characters were starting at 112,500 XP and even though he had that ritual done, he would have "made up the XP" before the game started.

Being amazed by the implications of this statement, I asked about Spellcasters crafting items. Wouldn't they "make up" the XP spent on crafting before the game started? He said yes. :confused: I wept as he destroyed game balance, but before losing hope I had one last idea.

I opened up my savage species to the section on rituals of transformation. Specifically I turned to the Ritual of Vitality. Using the hypothetical that I had the leadership feat and my cohort was a caster able to perform the ritual for me (for free cause we're in a cult together or something like that), I explained how bad it would be to use his "making up XP before the game starts" logic with this kind of thing. My 14th level Sorcerer (the off hand example I used) could spend 55,000 XP to become a hound archon (ECL 11 creature), dropping me down to 9th level as a sorcerer. I could then gain the necessary XP to become a 15th level Sorcerer because all of this happened before the game started.

What did he say to this? "That makes sense." :weep:

With the background out of the way...

Since I'm not all too creative with this kind of thing and I haven't used the rituals before, I'm looking for exploits this opens up that will help my DM see the light. I need to come up with the most broken things possible using this loophole and hopefully they will help my DM see the light. For this I turn to you all and ask for help...

Note: Just so you all know, my DM is general good at what he does, I'm just thinking he doesn't get the ECL concept, so please don't say "get a new DM." I'm sticking with it, I jsut want to help him see the light. Also, if I did some math wrong, or if I'm just flat out wrong about the way a Necropolitan PC would determine XP, feel free to point that out as well.
ZerodotJander
10-06-05, 11:57 AM Wow. That is... wow.

Why not just craft some sort of absolutely ridiculous item? If you're doing all sources allowed you should be able to pay exp instead of gold for base cost.

Also at level 15 you can cast limited wish. Make sure to have abused that as much as possible before the game begins, cause you can make up the exp, right?
PonTelon
10-06-05, 12:28 PM Also at level 15 you can cast limited wish. Make sure to have abused that as much as possible before the game begins, cause you can make up the exp, right?
I second! Horde of Simalcrums perhaps? Or those Snow Assassins, or go Druid and have a horde of Boguns for NanoBots. Just look through the PHB for any spell with XP costs. Use them all 100+ times.
K
10-06-05, 12:32 PM Your DM is right, I'm sad to say.

After expending XP, you end up being behind the party in total XP. At some point, you will be a full level behind the party. While you are a full level behind the party, you get more XP from encounters than your fellow party members accordng to the CR chart.

This means that, in the long run, there is no XP cost to making magic items. Only GP is limited, and its only limited by adventure treasure he hands out and Player money-making tricks he is willing to tolerate.

Savage Species rituals, however, still move your ECL up and down regardless of the XP cost. An ECL 11 Hound Archon with Sorcerer 15 is a 26th level character, no matter which way you slice it.

The rituals you want are the ones that turn your into the 0th level of a race with a good HPs and a levell bonus to Int, Cha, and/or Wish at 1st level. Since rituals change your race, but keep these four stats constant, you can change race, gain XP to gain a level, gain the level and the stat bonuses and HPs, the do another ritual to change into another race at 0th level.

Rinse and repeat for infinite stats and HPs, limited only by your money.
Nebosuke
10-06-05, 12:39 PM Before you go any further, you might want to rethink your general course of action. It's true that what the DM is proposing has the potential to be ridiculously unbalancing, but, if no players specifically abuse it to that point, that's all it'll be--potential. Unless you suspect that some of the other players are deliberately trying to abuse it to the point that it'll disrupt the campaign, you should probably let it go. The DM is having a bit more faith in his players than is wise, but that doesn't necessarily mean that you should beat him over the head for it.
ZerodotJander
10-06-05, 12:55 PM In the LONG run, yes, party members with less exp catch up. But it's a very long run. Have you ever been level 6 in a party of mostly level 8's? It takes quite a while before it equalizes.
Illithid13
10-06-05, 01:22 PM 2 words: Permanency, ABUSE
Todd
10-06-05, 01:41 PM Craft a slotless wonderous item of at will Limited Wish. That way you can use the spell in game with no XP loss. ;)

In fact ALL crafting should be free GP wise by this ruling as well. Just say that you crafted x number of other items & sold them to cover the GP cost of the ones you wanted.
Pellanor
10-06-05, 04:56 PM Here's what I would do if I were you. Create two characters. One who breaks everything, the second that you actually intend to play. Show your DM the Broken one, and say that's the character you made, and explain how you got everything using that ritual. Sure you could end up with an ECL of 28, in a 15th level party, so (assuming 4 players) you would have an average party ECL of 18. As soon as he complains about that character, tell him, "Well I did make up this second character. I just wanted you to see how borken this could potentialy be." or something like that.

anyways, on to pimping the system...

There should be no reason why you shouldn't be able to apply all sorts of templates, etc... to yourself.

Using the example you said, being a character with a Cohort to perform the ritual, you could assume that you were 15th level, and your chort was 14th (due to to Improved Cohort feat from Heroes of battle) allowing him to perform a ritual that increases your ECL by 14.

You could do as you said, and become a Hound archon, but I prefer to go for a more custom approach.

One of my favorites is the Half-dragon Tauric Polarbear. That gives you a +24 str, +2 dex, +6 con, +2 int, +2 cha, +9 natural armor, Large Size, Flight, a natural swim speed, all sorts of fun draconic immunities, 10d10 racial hit-dice, which (as monstorus humanoid HD) gives you +10 BAB, +3 for, +7 ref, +7 will, and (2+int)*10 skill points, Plus the extra feats. That's amazing for a fighter/barbarian type character. Of course, that would make you an epic level character, so make sure to pick up some epic level feats while your at it. Of course this doesn't have a listed LA mod, so that might prevent it from being a practical option.
However, when used as an NPC, that template is only +7 CR.

A fun one if you want to play a wizard: Fifth-Gray Elf(LA +0), Fifth-Fire Elemental(LA +3), Fifth-Silver Dragon(LA +3), Fifth-Janni(CR +3), Fifth-Fiend(LA +4). That's a total LA of +13, which you can pull off.
What's that one give you?
Outsider(native)(fire)(dragon)(elf)
Str +12
Dex +12
Con +2
Int +12
Wis +2
Cha +6
Natural Armor +7
Improved Initiative
Elf Traits
Spell Like Abilities: Enlarge Person(1/day), Invisibility(1/d), Reduce Person(1/d), Speak with Animals(1/d), Planar Jaunt(1/d, special), Burning Hands(1/d), Produce Flame(1/d), Flaming Sphere(1/d), Wall of Fire(1/d), Fire Shield(1/d), Fire Seeds(1/d), Fire Storm(1/d), Incendiary Cloud(1/d), Darkness(3/d), Desecrate(1/d), Unholy Blight(1/d), Poison(3/d), Contagion(1/d), Blasphemy(1/d), Unholy Aura(3/d), Unhallow(1/d), Horrid Wilting(1/d)
Immunities: Fire, Cold, Disease, Poison, Sleep, Paralysis
SR 25
DR 10/magic
Acid Resist 10, Electricity Resist 10
2 claw attacks and a bite attack
30 foot cone of cold 1/day (6d8 dmg, DC is con based)

Nothing too powerful there, but the +12 racial bonus to Intelligence is nice for a wizard.

but yeah, those were two fun combo's I came up with. I'm sure other people will have better ones.
BadCatMan
10-07-05, 12:36 AM I don't know about Rituals, but there are the Level Adjustment Buyoffs in Unearthed Arcana. Then you could play a LA+2 creature with no LA, or a LA+3 creature as LA+1.
Ditta
10-07-05, 12:55 AM Be a necropolitain and get evolved undead template multiple times.

If your using UA, then it would pretty much be broken, what happens if your a level 3 necropolitian that has gained the evolved undead template (making you ECL 4).

Pay off LA with UA which brings your XP back down to a level 3 right? Wait a couple hundred years and gain the template again. Go adventuring to get enough exp (6k) then pay if off again. Repeat as above.

Now you have a necropolitian with fasthealing infinity (Well as many Evolved Undead templates you were willing to take, Multiplied By 3) Not to mention infinate strength and Charisma.

If you don;t like above mentioned Undead see below.

Just create a buncha Magical Items with your EXP, and or if your gona be a cleric, I know a bunch of Spells in CDiv that use Exp to give ya ressurection and stuff.
colm_l
10-07-05, 05:34 AM Note: Just so you all know, my DM is general good at what he does, I'm just thinking he doesn't get the ECL concept, so please don't say "get a new DM."

Cut your DM some slack - explain to him that he needs to set a hard limit on how much XP can be spent before the game starts.

Other than that - personally I can't say how sick I am of this type of threads. It's a game - play it like one
lostone
10-09-05, 08:33 AM It's been a while since I read the savage species transformation rituals, and I do not have the book with me. Does it allow you to apply any template? Or are specific ones listed? If any, see if you can get the Paragon template, the version from the Epic Level Handbook. That right there should be enough to convince your DM to re-evaluate his house rule.

Or have him come to the boards and ask for an explanation on ECL vs LA vs HD vs Class Levels. It is clear he is not understanding the difference, or he just doesn't care.
P33KAJ3W
10-09-05, 09:34 AM Apply DVR 0 and Paragon
Glitch2
10-09-05, 10:07 AM Well, if you make up the XP from crafting items, just get craft construct, Extroardinary Artisian, and Magical Artisian (craft construct) then make infinite golems. If he says golems take too long to make, just be a warforged, tiefling, aasimar, or elan. They all live forever so you will have had an eternity to make the golems. Since you have 100% decreased gold cost, you live forever, and you saposedly "regain" the XP from crafting, you have infinite resources.

Now that i think of it, an easier way would be to just learn the animate object spell then animate every item you can think of. You then make them permenant with permancy.

Now that you have such a large army, conquer the world!
jedrious
10-09-05, 11:26 AM actually th free ritual thing can be really sick, when you red the section called The End Result you see that after a transformation you retain all of your supernatural abilities, so just keep changing into different creatures with kickass supernatural abilities a simple abuse of this is having a DR of 15/magic and good and law and evil and chaos
lostone
10-09-05, 11:49 AM actually th free ritual thing can be really sick, when you red the section called The End Result you see that after a transformation you retain all of your supernatural abilities, so just keep changing into different creatures with kickass supernatural abilities a simple abuse of this is having a DR of 15/magic and good and law and evil and chaosYou might as well go for a True Seeing (from many monsters), a Barghest's Feed (you can't turn into a greather barghest since you aren't a barghest, so you could conceivably keep feeding and gaining hit dice :D), Petrifying Gaze from a Basilisk (you can turn it off and on since it is (SU)), multiple breath weapons from different dragon types, you could use a different breath weapon every round since each one takes a few rounds to recharge, a blink dog's dimension door (dimension every round as a free action and you aren't disoriented), quickness from a choker, Telepathy, etc, etc, etc.
jedrious
10-09-05, 11:55 AM You might as well go for a True Seeing (from many monsters), a Barghest's Feed (you can't turn into a greather barghest since you aren't a barghest, so you could conceivably keep feeding and gaining hit dice :D), Petrifying Gaze from a Basilisk (you can turn it off and on since it is (SU)), multiple breath weapons from different dragon types, you could use a different breath weapon every round since each one takes a few rounds to recharge, a blink dog's dimension door (dimension every round as a free action and you aren't disoriented), quickness from a choker, Telepathy, etc, etc, etc.
yeah, like I said the DR was a simple abuse, I mean just temporarily turn into a sarruck(however you spell it) and become Pun-Pun
lostone
10-09-05, 01:09 PM yeah, like I said the DR was a simple abuse, I mean just temporarily turn into a sarruck(however you spell it) and become Pun-PunAnd learn how violent your DM can really become :P

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
gabrion 10-06-05, 04:06 AM	Ok, so I'm playing with a DM who needs to be taught a bit of a lesson and I hope you guys can help. In case you are concerned about my attitude, let me make it clear that I am not trying to break his game, I'm just trying to come up with a way of showing him that his house rule is broken. Background.... We are starting at 15th level (112,500 XP) with all sources allowed, yada, yada, yada. One player made a necropolitan PC that had the same exact starting XP as everyone else. I pointed out that the PC should be behind by a certain amount of XP because of the level lost in the ritual to turn him into a necropolitan and I pointed out the appropriate rules. The exact amount would depend on the level at which the PC had the ritual done (lower levels being better for him), but none the less he would be behind in XP. The DM replied that that was not the case because the characters were starting at 112,500 XP and even though he had that ritual done, he would have "made up the XP" before the game started. Being amazed by the implications of this statement, I asked about Spellcasters crafting items. Wouldn't they "make up" the XP spent on crafting before the game started? He said yes. :confused: I wept as he destroyed game balance, but before losing hope I had one last idea. I opened up my savage species to the section on rituals of transformation. Specifically I turned to the Ritual of Vitality. Using the hypothetical that I had the leadership feat and my cohort was a caster able to perform the ritual for me (for free cause we're in a cult together or something like that), I explained how bad it would be to use his "making up XP before the game starts" logic with this kind of thing. My 14th level Sorcerer (the off hand example I used) could spend 55,000 XP to become a hound archon (ECL 11 creature), dropping me down to 9th level as a sorcerer. I could then gain the necessary XP to become a 15th level Sorcerer because all of this happened before the game started. What did he say to this? "That makes sense." :weep: With the background out of the way... Since I'm not all too creative with this kind of thing and I haven't used the rituals before, I'm looking for exploits this opens up that will help my DM see the light. I need to come up with the most broken things possible using this loophole and hopefully they will help my DM see the light. For this I turn to you all and ask for help... Note: Just so you all know, my DM is general good at what he does, I'm just thinking he doesn't get the ECL concept, so please don't say "get a new DM." I'm sticking with it, I jsut want to help him see the light. Also, if I did some math wrong, or if I'm just flat out wrong about the way a Necropolitan PC would determine XP, feel free to point that out as well.
ZerodotJander 10-06-05, 11:57 AM	Wow. That is... wow. Why not just craft some sort of absolutely ridiculous item? If you're doing all sources allowed you should be able to pay exp instead of gold for base cost. Also at level 15 you can cast limited wish. Make sure to have abused that as much as possible before the game begins, cause you can make up the exp, right?
PonTelon 10-06-05, 12:28 PM	Also at level 15 you can cast limited wish. Make sure to have abused that as much as possible before the game begins, cause you can make up the exp, right? I second! Horde of Simalcrums perhaps? Or those Snow Assassins, or go Druid and have a horde of Boguns for NanoBots. Just look through the PHB for any spell with XP costs. Use them all 100+ times.
K 10-06-05, 12:32 PM	Your DM is right, I'm sad to say. After expending XP, you end up being behind the party in total XP. At some point, you will be a full level behind the party. While you are a full level behind the party, you get more XP from encounters than your fellow party members accordng to the CR chart. This means that, in the long run, there is no XP cost to making magic items. Only GP is limited, and its only limited by adventure treasure he hands out and Player money-making tricks he is willing to tolerate. Savage Species rituals, however, still move your ECL up and down regardless of the XP cost. An ECL 11 Hound Archon with Sorcerer 15 is a 26th level character, no matter which way you slice it. The rituals you want are the ones that turn your into the 0th level of a race with a good HPs and a levell bonus to Int, Cha, and/or Wish at 1st level. Since rituals change your race, but keep these four stats constant, you can change race, gain XP to gain a level, gain the level and the stat bonuses and HPs, the do another ritual to change into another race at 0th level. Rinse and repeat for infinite stats and HPs, limited only by your money.
Nebosuke 10-06-05, 12:39 PM	Before you go any further, you might want to rethink your general course of action. It's true that what the DM is proposing has the potential to be ridiculously unbalancing, but, if no players specifically abuse it to that point, that's all it'll be--potential. Unless you suspect that some of the other players are deliberately trying to abuse it to the point that it'll disrupt the campaign, you should probably let it go. The DM is having a bit more faith in his players than is wise, but that doesn't necessarily mean that you should beat him over the head for it.
ZerodotJander 10-06-05, 12:55 PM	In the LONG run, yes, party members with less exp catch up. But it's a very long run. Have you ever been level 6 in a party of mostly level 8's? It takes quite a while before it equalizes.
Illithid13 10-06-05, 01:22 PM	2 words: Permanency, ABUSE
Todd 10-06-05, 01:41 PM	Craft a slotless wonderous item of at will Limited Wish. That way you can use the spell in game with no XP loss. ;) In fact ALL crafting should be free GP wise by this ruling as well. Just say that you crafted x number of other items & sold them to cover the GP cost of the ones you wanted.
Pellanor 10-06-05, 04:56 PM	Here's what I would do if I were you. Create two characters. One who breaks everything, the second that you actually intend to play. Show your DM the Broken one, and say that's the character you made, and explain how you got everything using that ritual. Sure you could end up with an ECL of 28, in a 15th level party, so (assuming 4 players) you would have an average party ECL of 18. As soon as he complains about that character, tell him, "Well I did make up this second character. I just wanted you to see how borken this could potentialy be." or something like that. anyways, on to pimping the system... There should be no reason why you shouldn't be able to apply all sorts of templates, etc... to yourself. Using the example you said, being a character with a Cohort to perform the ritual, you could assume that you were 15th level, and your chort was 14th (due to to Improved Cohort feat from Heroes of battle) allowing him to perform a ritual that increases your ECL by 14. You could do as you said, and become a Hound archon, but I prefer to go for a more custom approach. One of my favorites is the Half-dragon Tauric Polarbear. That gives you a +24 str, +2 dex, +6 con, +2 int, +2 cha, +9 natural armor, Large Size, Flight, a natural swim speed, all sorts of fun draconic immunities, 10d10 racial hit-dice, which (as monstorus humanoid HD) gives you +10 BAB, +3 for, +7 ref, +7 will, and (2+int)*10 skill points, Plus the extra feats. That's amazing for a fighter/barbarian type character. Of course, that would make you an epic level character, so make sure to pick up some epic level feats while your at it. Of course this doesn't have a listed LA mod, so that might prevent it from being a practical option. However, when used as an NPC, that template is only +7 CR. A fun one if you want to play a wizard: Fifth-Gray Elf(LA +0), Fifth-Fire Elemental(LA +3), Fifth-Silver Dragon(LA +3), Fifth-Janni(CR +3), Fifth-Fiend(LA +4). That's a total LA of +13, which you can pull off. What's that one give you? Outsider(native)(fire)(dragon)(elf) Str +12 Dex +12 Con +2 Int +12 Wis +2 Cha +6 Natural Armor +7 Improved Initiative Elf Traits Spell Like Abilities: Enlarge Person(1/day), Invisibility(1/d), Reduce Person(1/d), Speak with Animals(1/d), Planar Jaunt(1/d, special), Burning Hands(1/d), Produce Flame(1/d), Flaming Sphere(1/d), Wall of Fire(1/d), Fire Shield(1/d), Fire Seeds(1/d), Fire Storm(1/d), Incendiary Cloud(1/d), Darkness(3/d), Desecrate(1/d), Unholy Blight(1/d), Poison(3/d), Contagion(1/d), Blasphemy(1/d), Unholy Aura(3/d), Unhallow(1/d), Horrid Wilting(1/d) Immunities: Fire, Cold, Disease, Poison, Sleep, Paralysis SR 25 DR 10/magic Acid Resist 10, Electricity Resist 10 2 claw attacks and a bite attack 30 foot cone of cold 1/day (6d8 dmg, DC is con based) Nothing too powerful there, but the +12 racial bonus to Intelligence is nice for a wizard. but yeah, those were two fun combo's I came up with. I'm sure other people will have better ones.
BadCatMan 10-07-05, 12:36 AM	I don't know about Rituals, but there are the Level Adjustment Buyoffs in Unearthed Arcana. Then you could play a LA+2 creature with no LA, or a LA+3 creature as LA+1.
Ditta 10-07-05, 12:55 AM	Be a necropolitain and get evolved undead template multiple times. If your using UA, then it would pretty much be broken, what happens if your a level 3 necropolitian that has gained the evolved undead template (making you ECL 4). Pay off LA with UA which brings your XP back down to a level 3 right? Wait a couple hundred years and gain the template again. Go adventuring to get enough exp (6k) then pay if off again. Repeat as above. Now you have a necropolitian with fasthealing infinity (Well as many Evolved Undead templates you were willing to take, Multiplied By 3) Not to mention infinate strength and Charisma. If you don;t like above mentioned Undead see below. Just create a buncha Magical Items with your EXP, and or if your gona be a cleric, I know a bunch of Spells in CDiv that use Exp to give ya ressurection and stuff.
colm_l 10-07-05, 05:34 AM	Note: Just so you all know, my DM is general good at what he does, I'm just thinking he doesn't get the ECL concept, so please don't say "get a new DM." Cut your DM some slack - explain to him that he needs to set a hard limit on how much XP can be spent before the game starts. Other than that - personally I can't say how sick I am of this type of threads. It's a game - play it like one
lostone 10-09-05, 08:33 AM	It's been a while since I read the savage species transformation rituals, and I do not have the book with me. Does it allow you to apply any template? Or are specific ones listed? If any, see if you can get the Paragon template, the version from the Epic Level Handbook. That right there should be enough to convince your DM to re-evaluate his house rule. Or have him come to the boards and ask for an explanation on ECL vs LA vs HD vs Class Levels. It is clear he is not understanding the difference, or he just doesn't care.
P33KAJ3W 10-09-05, 09:34 AM	Apply DVR 0 and Paragon
Glitch2 10-09-05, 10:07 AM	Well, if you make up the XP from crafting items, just get craft construct, Extroardinary Artisian, and Magical Artisian (craft construct) then make infinite golems. If he says golems take too long to make, just be a warforged, tiefling, aasimar, or elan. They all live forever so you will have had an eternity to make the golems. Since you have 100% decreased gold cost, you live forever, and you saposedly "regain" the XP from crafting, you have infinite resources. Now that i think of it, an easier way would be to just learn the animate object spell then animate every item you can think of. You then make them permenant with permancy. Now that you have such a large army, conquer the world!
jedrious 10-09-05, 11:26 AM	actually th free ritual thing can be really sick, when you red the section called The End Result you see that after a transformation you retain all of your supernatural abilities, so just keep changing into different creatures with kickass supernatural abilities a simple abuse of this is having a DR of 15/magic and good and law and evil and chaos
lostone 10-09-05, 11:49 AM	actually th free ritual thing can be really sick, when you red the section called The End Result you see that after a transformation you retain all of your supernatural abilities, so just keep changing into different creatures with kickass supernatural abilities a simple abuse of this is having a DR of 15/magic and good and law and evil and chaosYou might as well go for a True Seeing (from many monsters), a Barghest's Feed (you can't turn into a greather barghest since you aren't a barghest, so you could conceivably keep feeding and gaining hit dice :D), Petrifying Gaze from a Basilisk (you can turn it off and on since it is (SU)), multiple breath weapons from different dragon types, you could use a different breath weapon every round since each one takes a few rounds to recharge, a blink dog's dimension door (dimension every round as a free action and you aren't disoriented), quickness from a choker, Telepathy, etc, etc, etc.
jedrious 10-09-05, 11:55 AM	You might as well go for a True Seeing (from many monsters), a Barghest's Feed (you can't turn into a greather barghest since you aren't a barghest, so you could conceivably keep feeding and gaining hit dice :D), Petrifying Gaze from a Basilisk (you can turn it off and on since it is (SU)), multiple breath weapons from different dragon types, you could use a different breath weapon every round since each one takes a few rounds to recharge, a blink dog's dimension door (dimension every round as a free action and you aren't disoriented), quickness from a choker, Telepathy, etc, etc, etc. yeah, like I said the DR was a simple abuse, I mean just temporarily turn into a sarruck(however you spell it) and become Pun-Pun
lostone 10-09-05, 01:09 PM	yeah, like I said the DR was a simple abuse, I mean just temporarily turn into a sarruck(however you spell it) and become Pun-PunAnd learn how violent your DM can really become :P