Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Crimsonsun 03-19-05, 07:40 AM	Was challenged by my DM to see if I could break the Force Missile Mage (Dragon #328) so here's what I had in mind Human 14 Warmage/5 Force Missile Mage/1 Argent Savant Raw Stats (28pt buy) - STR 10 DEX 12 CON 12 INT 13 WIS 11 CHA 19 (+4 from levels went to CHA) Stats after items - STR 10 DEX 18 CON 12 INT 24 WIS 11 CHA 30 Feats: Combat Casting, Fell Drain, Arcane Preperation, Twin Spell, Repeat Spell, Energy Substitutuin [Fire], Energy Admixture, Extra Edge, Spell Penetration Abilities: Armored Mage (medium), Warmage Edge, Advanced Learning x3, Sudden Empower, Sudden Enlarge, Force Specialization, Bonus Missiles x2, Energy Missile, Swift Shield, Overpowering Missile, Reflective Shield Items: Headband of Intellect +6, Cloak of Charisma +6, Hand of Glory, Gloves of Dexterity +6, 3 Rings of Wizardry III (One on Hand of Glory) Elven Chain +5 with Spell Resistance 19, has read a Tome of Leadership and Understanding +5 and a Tome of Clear Thought +5 Now, I wasnt sure what to take for my last feat, so I took Spell Penetration, since Magic Missile is only effected by Spell Resistance, but Im open to any ideas. Current NORMAL missile casting does 1d4+2 per missile, 7 missiles, and one missile does an additional 11 damage. He has so many 3rd level spell slots so he can prepare a boatload of Fell Drain Magic Missiles.....
Velgost 03-19-05, 09:01 AM	Don't have anything in the way of a reply but I was wondering what source Fell Drain was from. Also is Energy Sub really needed in your build? The Force Missile Mage is able to do this anyway w/his MM spells and this should qualify you for the Admix feat, kinda like a pseudo feat.
lokkesmadr 03-19-05, 09:24 AM	Fell Drain is from Libris Mortis. Crimsonsun, have you considered the possibility of going into archmage, taking magic missile (or fell draining magic missile) as a spell like ability and then applying the Supernatural Transformation feat (SavS) to is?
Crimsonsun 03-19-05, 12:12 PM	Don't have anything in the way of a reply but I was wondering what source Fell Drain was from. Also is Energy Sub really needed in your build? The Force Missile Mage is able to do this anyway w/his MM spells and this should qualify you for the Admix feat, kinda like a pseudo feat. Like said, Fell Drain is from Libris Mortis. Any target damaged by a Fell Drained spell gains a negative level, no saving throw. As for the Energy Sub, That would have to be a cust serv answer I believe. Would be nice to get another feat... Crimsonsun, have you considered the possibility of going into archmage, taking magic missile (or fell draining magic missile) as a spell like ability and then applying the Supernatural Transformation feat (SavS) to is? Supernatural transformation? And I dont know if a warmage CAN take archmage, not sure if he knows the 5 different schools... dont have my books handy right now to dig through the spell list
Mr. Dog 03-19-05, 12:34 PM	A warmage qualifies, but not until late.
Tempest Stormwind 03-19-05, 12:49 PM	Don't have Complete Arcane on me... but why 14 levels in Warmage? (by the way, Battlecaster is something you probably want. Full plate mage!) Seconding the Supernatural Transformation route, by the way. There are enough schools in the warmage list, but only just.
Tweedledope 03-19-05, 01:08 PM	Did WotC ever imbed the force missle mage PrC into its' website? I thought for some reason that they did. if not, is it "legal" to post the PrC here on the boards so I can take a look at it? it sounds pretty good...that is until someone casts shield and you're boned. -=tweedledope=- rioting against the use of the shift key.
Tealgorthian 03-19-05, 01:17 PM	FFM can ignore the Sheild spell :) A way to get alot of Force spells quickly is to take Arcane Disciple (Force Domain) from Complete Divine. Something I thought about last night.
Eytan 03-19-05, 01:34 PM	As far as I can tell Warmages have a pretty good number of schools with 5th level or higher spells: Evocation, Conjuration, Transmutation, Illusion, Abjuration, and Necromancy. The only schools they lack are divination and enchantment (hardly necessary). Also, if you happen to go the rainbow servant route, you have all 9 schools. Not that I agree with the ruling, but if warlocks can't take supernatural transformation for their invocations, you can't take it for the innate spell either. I think the ruling assumes that innate is only referring to SLAs of monsters, not those gained through classes. I happen to disagree - and they didn't put it in an errata - but that's what Rich Baker said.
allenchan 03-19-05, 01:42 PM	I really would consider only having 8 levels of straight warmage. Biggest thing is your feats, I'd seriously consider ditching half of them. I'd also consider grabbing some other metamagic feats (twinned spell and quickened spell in particular) so you can have 28 magic missles a round.
Sir Gummibaerchen 03-19-05, 02:58 PM	Add the Warmage PrC from Dragonlance - Age of Mortals. Taking 5 levels will give you +3 damage on each damage die. Apart from other goodies
Crimsonsun 03-19-05, 05:11 PM	Lots of recommendations for supernatural transformation. What book does that one come from? Im probably just blind and missed it
Velgost 03-19-05, 06:01 PM	FFM can ignore the Sheild spell :) . Not only that it reflects it back :D Did WotC ever imbed the force missle mage PrC into its' website? I thought for some reason that they did. if not, is it "legal" to post the PrC here on the boards so I can take a look at it? it sounds pretty good...that is until someone casts shield and you're boned. It's actually published in Drag mag so I think it's some sort of violation to post it here
Nazzareth 03-19-05, 06:04 PM	the updated 3.5 eunuch warlock from dragon would give you empowered or maximized magic missle spells at no cost. take still spell, silent spell, quicken and innate spell with this and you have unlimited empowered or maximized magic missle spells.
DarknessEternal 03-19-05, 06:40 PM	Just to clarify, if you hit something with 7 Fell Draining Magic Missiles, it still only loses 1 level. 1 spell = 1 level.
Tempest Stormwind 03-19-05, 07:31 PM	Just to clarify, if you hit something with 7 Fell Draining Magic Missiles, it still only loses 1 level. 1 spell = 1 level. Unless that one Fell Draining spell is twinned, repeated, and then cast again with Quicken on it (and that too, possibly twinned and repeated). Up to 8 full copies of a spell cast in one round, each draining one level and hitting people with seven missiles. (I forget the metamagic adjustments on those feats, though, so I don't know if it's possible. The premise holds, though -- which is why twin/quicken is so potent. Repeat, less so.).
Ramaloke 03-19-05, 07:43 PM	Unless that one Fell Draining spell is twinned, repeated, and then cast again with Quicken on it (and that too, possibly twinned and repeated). Up to 8 full copies of a spell cast in one round, each draining one level and hitting people with seven missiles. (I forget the metamagic adjustments on those feats, though, so I don't know if it's possible. The premise holds, though -- which is why twin/quicken is so potent. Repeat, less so.). And if you target seperate creatures they all loose a level, and I wonder what happens when they are chained.
Crimsonsun 03-19-05, 11:22 PM	And if you target seperate creatures they all loose a level, and I wonder what happens when they are chained. thats exactly what I had in mind :D Yes, you can only be affected one by a fell drain magic missile, but when your hit with 9 different copies of the spell within a short amount of time, its gonna leave you a little shrived mess... and doing that to seven different targets! :eek: I did think of Battle Caster, but Id have to burn two feats for plate, because battle caster does NOT give heavy armor prof. And I thought more metamagic feats would suit better. Wearing medium armor is still pretty good! I really would consider only having 8 levels of straight warmage. Biggest thing is your feats, I'd seriously consider ditching half of them. I'd also consider grabbing some other metamagic feats (twinned spell and quickened spell in particular) so you can have 28 magic missles a round. I took the other levels of warmage for a few reasons. First off, I wanted to be level 9, to get the maximum missiles BEFORE FFM. Second, they get a BOATLOAD of spells per day, I mean, its 6 per day for all levels BUT 9th. Thats power. Third, I didnt really have any other ideas.... :pbbbtt: And if you target seperate creatures they all loose a level, and I wonder what happens when they are chained. IIRC, Chained spells have to have only a single target. Dunno if you could do this with magic missile by aiming all the missiles at one target, and then having the chain trigger then... Supernatural Transformation feat (SavS) Still trying to figure where this feat it. That abbriviation mean Savage Species?
lokkesmadr 03-19-05, 11:32 PM	Yes, it's in savage species. It converts one spell like ability you have into a supernatural ability. In your case it would be converting your spell like ability from archmage into a supernatural version; essentially it allows you to bypass SR, cast without provoking an attack of opportunity and cast with a base caster level equal to your hit dice (which, for you, is exactly the same as normal). The writer responsible for the Warlock base class, after discussion with various others, stated that they feel the feat (which uses the term 'innate spell like ability') can only be applied to SLAs gained by virtue of race and template. In the general case the rule on this sort of feat is 'ask your DM first, regardless', so really it's your call.
lokkesmadr 03-19-05, 11:36 PM	Thinking about it, you could try to enter the Dragon Disciple PrC. It grants extra spells per day that you can apply to any spell level you can cast, so it'd provide a pretty good boost to whichever level you find you use most often. Probably not optimal, but worth looking into
Tempest Stormwind 03-20-05, 12:02 AM	I did think of Battle Caster, but Id have to burn two feats for plate, because battle caster does NOT give heavy armor prof. And I thought more metamagic feats would suit better. Wearing medium armor is still pretty good! I took the other levels of warmage for a few reasons. First off, I wanted to be level 9, to get the maximum missiles BEFORE FFM. Second, they get a BOATLOAD of spells per day, I mean, its 6 per day for all levels BUT 9th. Thats power. Third, I didnt really have any other ideas.... :pbbbtt: Two notes: 1) Mithral. Plate problem solved. 2) Does Force Missile Mage advance spellcasting? If this is the case, you only need to stick to your base class for class features. Even so, archmage will advance it later. (on a side note: I feel the psionic classes got something right here, with every PrC taking at least a 1ML hit (except the hybrid Cerbremancer, which takes a 3 level hit from required levels in wizard or sorceror). Can you recall the last "everything's open" game where you saw anyone with more than 5 levels in "wizard" but still being the best caster by far?)
Malcoren 03-20-05, 09:17 PM	So... uh... why not also cast Bloostar while you're at it? The thing makes the foe Save each time they are damaged or lose Con. Each. Time. 14-21 Magic Missiles in one round following the Star and... well.... that's a lot of Fortitude saves. Even if only a third of them work, the DM's going to be furious at having to roll that many times. If nothing else, that 'breaks' it enough for me. ;) You might actually end up killing the foe by levels OR ability drain long before you actually do hit point damage. ;)
Crimsonsun 03-20-05, 09:43 PM	So... uh... why not also cast Bloostar while you're at it? The thing makes the foe Save each time they are damaged or lose Con. Each. Time. 14-21 Magic Missiles in one round following the Star and... well.... that's a lot of Fortitude saves. Even if only a third of them work, the DM's going to be furious at having to roll that many times. If nothing else, that 'breaks' it enough for me. ;) You might actually end up killing the foe by levels OR ability drain long before you actually do hit point damage. ;) Where's that come from? That was exactly the kinda thing I wanetd. Missles dont DO much, so using them for draining effects is better :D
zavin 03-14-06, 01:41 PM	I think he meant Bloodstar which is from the Libris Mortis I *think*
Malcoren 03-15-06, 09:15 AM	...Zavin is correct, I mean BLOODstar. And yes, it's in the Libris Mortis. Although, there is another similar one in Sandstorm called, appropriately enough, Sandstar, that adds dessication damage to the foe for each hit. Either way, it'll be a big mess, and I'm sure the DM won't be too pleased. ;)
zavin 03-15-06, 09:38 AM	I just wanted to know if anyone knows where I can get the Force Missile Mage stuff, I would pay for a back order of dragon but I just spent my D&D money on the Tome of Magic and Magic of Incarnum and am lacking a bit in the financial department. And Bloodstar is a sick spell by itself, combined with this...ugh *shudder*
DrowSmurf 03-15-06, 09:55 AM	...wait... i dont understand what Argent Savant is for... maybe im just retarded...
mod5000 03-15-06, 11:55 AM	Argent Savant is so you can add +2 to your AC from different force spells (shield is the big one here, since in my following build all your spell prepared are automatically stilled and silenced ^_^). Here's the deal: Dwarven Wizard, Flaw: Forlorn 1. Wizard 1 (Twin Spell) (Scribe Scroll) (Quicken Spell) 2. Wizard 2 3. Wizard 3 (Repeated Spell) 4. Wizard 4 5. Wizard 5 (Spell Focus: X) 6. Mindbender 1 (Fell Drain) 7. Fighter 1 (Fighter Feat) 8. Runesmith 1 9. Geometer (Combat Casting) 10. Force Missile Mage 1 11. Argent Savant 1 (Complete Arcane, Page 24) 12. Argent Savant 2 (Skill Focus: Spellcraft) 13. Force Missile Mage 2 14. Force Missile Mage 3 15. Force Missile Mage 4 (Spell Focus: X) 16. Force Missile Mage 5 17. Archmage 1 18. Archmage 2 (Supernatural Transformation) 19. Archmage 3 20. Archmage 4 Basically, what you do is every round cast a Quickened, Fell Drained MM (7th level slot), followed by a Twinned, Fell Drained MM (also 7th level). Once you run short of those, turn to Repeated, Fell Drained MM. This means that you can cause up to 7 creatures 3 negative levels/round, and each one 3 constitution damage at the same time if you use Bloodstar. And the negative levels are without a save, and can't be negated by concealment or cover. At the end of the build, you can sacrifice some of your higher slots to cast the above MMs twice in return, which you can also turn into supernatural abilities via the Supernatural Transformation feat. Furthermore, ALL your spells are stilled (Runesmith) and silent (Geometer), and you still get access to level 9 spells (lots if you use Scribe Scroll). To have a higher caster level without making a big impact on the build, simply drop the Argent Savant for two levels of Fatespinner or whatever. Can anyone think of more ways to optimize this?
Aufenshauft 03-15-06, 03:51 PM	Imbue Familiar with spell ability is a great effect. Your familiar casts spells as you do, so it gains all of the fun stuff you get for the class. Doubles your offensive power, since your real power comes from the number of missiles that get out. Of course, you don't get that as a warmage, though. Quicken is your maximizer, Maximize is worthless, and Chain is dubiuous at best. If your DM is smart, you will run up against a lot of SR, so get spell penetration. Also, keep in mind that you have other spells to your name too. This is a good class for a sorceror, since you get the most out of that one spell and the rest of your slots can go to defensive and utility spells. Start finding ways of using that Rope Trick more than just for sleeping, and really trip them up with using illusions. You have your offensive spell all through 20 level.
klode_me 04-09-06, 04:01 AM	Innate spell: Magic missile at will all day long... Cheers klode_me
Richmud 04-09-06, 10:16 AM	If you have acces to magic of incarnum you might want to consider getting the arcane focus which deals bonus damage to each creature hit by your missles. You can do this with shape soulmeld or to make it more powerful you can enter the soulcaster prestige class, it will only cost you one more caster level
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 04-09-06, 11:06 PM	How is that? It would seem that becoming a SoulShaper would take 3 levels?
Richmud 04-09-06, 11:16 PM	Well its one caster level and 2 feats, couldn't remember what the trick was exactly just that you could get in with only one caster level lose just looked it up. One level of incarnate gets you 2 melds the shape soulmeld feat brings that up to 3 and open lesser bind feat gives you the open bind
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 04-09-06, 11:50 PM	Alrighty, I can buy that, but what's the Payoff? Just how much extra damage are we talking about here?
Tempest Stormwind 04-10-06, 01:13 AM	Alrighty, I can buy that, but what's the Payoff? Just how much extra damage are we talking about here? You'd be amazed, but Incarnum requires generally very few class levels (read: 0) to fit into a normal build. Just because you're not a soulcaster doesn't mean you can't be successful with incarnum. The arcane focus increases spells by 1 point, but unlike most other things like this, it deals this bonus damage to each target. If you invest essentia in this meld, you increase this bonus by 1 per essentia -- which means, if you have enough essentia (this is one of the difficult things to do without class levels), you could eventually boost it by up to +6 per target.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 04-10-06, 01:55 AM	I've done a similar thread to this, and I was told that it had been done before I had. The concept has been kicked around several times it would seem. My build makes use of frostburn to add more damage to each dice. Here's a link: Magic Missile: More Tweakery Needed (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=603708) An excerpt: Feat order: 1. Snow Casting, (Frozen Magic) 3. Cold Specialization 6. Combat Casting 9. Empower Spell 12. Arcane Preparation 15. Heighten Spell 18. Quicken Spell Build: Warmage 1/Sorcerer5/FMM5/Argent Savant5/Sorcerer 4 I think the above trick is legal, I save a feat by switching to sorcerer, but the warmage edge should still apply (as I am still casting a spell). Plus I get a whole bunch of level one spell slots this way. The damage is pretty much the same as before, but now I have a quickened spell and empower in there: 21x[1d4 + 1 (normal) + 1 (argent savant) + 2(cold specialization)] + 2x7(warmage edge). = 150.5 (That uses 1 7th level slot and 1 3rd level slot). My first level slots deal: 7x[1d4 + 1 (normal) + 1 (argent savant) + 2(cold specialization)] + 1x7(warmage edge). = 42.5 Not too shabby eh?
Mist of Shadows 04-10-06, 02:07 AM	Anyone looked at using the wu-jen as a base class? using the spell secrets to apply to magic missle? Then stacking on the fun. Sure you don't get the warmage edge but you get other nice abilities out of it.
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 04-10-06, 08:54 PM	The Spell Secrets are only Silent, Still, Extend, and Enlarge, so unfotrunately that's very limited usefulness for magic missle. Plus, a build was already submitted that took out the need for Silent and Still spell, so the Only useful one would be enlarge, and it's not really all that useful.
FilthySanchez 04-10-06, 09:03 PM	Mod5000, I love that build. Any way to get it using only 2 classes and 2 PrCs? Dm houseruled limits but I love the flavor of your build.
Mist of Shadows 04-10-06, 09:38 PM	There is an epic feat for spell secrets that allows any metamagic feat to change a spell. But it can only be taken once per spell sadly. So I guess you're right about it not being all that useful. Seems a shame really.
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 04-11-06, 02:04 AM	Mod5000, I love that build. Any way to get it using only 2 classes and 2 PrCs? Dm houseruled limits but I love the flavor of your build. Dm Houserules are the Devil! Just play a Cleric or Druid Then with a Prc of Your Choice.