Post/Author/DateTime	Post
laotching 05-16-04, 08:28 AM	First, go read up on LordShade's Wizard + Ur Priest + Mystic Theurge + True Necro build. Then do the following; 1. Kill a great gold wyrm, with 41 HD. Keep corpse intact. Or you can just happen upon a corpse. 2. Cast Animate Dead on the corpse. Dragon becomes completely loyal skeleton with Str 47, Dex 10, Con -, Int -, Wis 10, Cha 32, etc. 3. Then cast Awaken Undead: Int ~7, skills, but most importantly FEATS: 1 + 1/3HD = 14 feats. Choose a couple of feats to stay alive (undead?) and try to get around the terrible AC. For the feats from HD-6 onward, however, he should take Undead Leadership, or Leadership if the DM allows the vanilla version to provide an undead cohort and undead followers. Take it multiple times. Then take Epic Leadership multiple times for HD-21 onward. 4. So let's calculate leadership score: 41HD + 11 ChaMOD + a bunch of little mods = at least 52. That means an ECL 31 cohort per Epic Leadership feat! Although the extra Leadership/Epic Leadership feats don't provide any extra followers, the skeletal dragon still get the following followers: 2200 lvl1, 220 lvl2, 110 lvl3, 55 lvl4, 28 lvl5, 14 lvl6, 7 lvl7, 4 lvl8, 2 lvl9, 1 lvl10. The sheer fact that this skeletal dragon has literally thousands of followers means some serious ass-kicking to small cities. Now, all of these guys are worshipping this skeletal dragon, which you have completely under your control, with no chance of rebellion or anything. He also effectively cant be turned or rebuked, as he has 41 HD. So as long as this dragon stays alive (undead?) you can rule the world with his five ECL 17 cohorts and seven ECL 31 cohorts. By the way, you still have (caster level = 35) * 4 - 41 = 99 HD you haven't used for controlling animated undead. You could go find another dragon to kill and animate, etc. Here's the interesting part: Though the spell Animate Dead doesn't specify the maximum HD of any skeleton you animate, the entry in the Monster Manual says skeletons of 20+ HD can't be animated. However, the new Draconomicon clearly and unequivocately states the Skeletal Dragon is created from Animate Dead. So we are led to believe 20 is the max HD for any animated skeleton except dragons. Theoretically, you could find an advanced, 140 HD dragon's corpse, cast Animate Dead on it, and go completely nuts. Here's a better idea: If you wait until epic levels to cast Animate Dead, you can first get Undead Mastery. So 35 * 10 = 350 HD. Go find a 350 HD corpse and you've pretty much figured out a way to coup-de-grace your DM. You can also replace an Epic Leadership feat with Legendary Commander, provided the dragon acquires a kingdom and a castle. Then he get TEN TIMES as many followers. As for the problems with this, yeah, it's kind of obvious. If for any reason the skeletal dragon dies, you're pretty much screwed. Who knows what a handful of level 31 undead are going to do to you and your party. And you can't even come close to rebuking/commanding them, as you have a crappy effective 10 levels in Ur-Priest. With the skeletal dragon's painfully inadequate AC, and no good defensive abilities, he's going to need to count on some major 24-7 protection to stay the hell animated. Also, the cohorts are not yours, so they don't obey you. They'd be able to kick your ass easily anyway. You have to go through a chain of command to somehow tell the dragon to command the cohorts to do certain things without the cohorts knowing. They would probably not like taking commands from a puny level 20 human. In any case, there are some serious logical problems with this. How come a lame skeleton, by virtue of a lot of hit dice, can have liches and demiliches under his command? I don't know, but it sure would be fun to play.
Funny Slaughter 05-16-04, 09:39 AM	and you've pretty much figured out a way to coup-de-grace your DM. there is a single (major) problem with that. i'll tell a little tale to illustrate. a mighty mage, well within epic levels and, due to various rules, extremely skilled in the arts of epic spellcasting as well as the most advanced arts of item creation, decided that crafting an item to "rule the world" was within his reach. his player spend quite some days realtime and one day the mighty wizard started to create an mighty artifact. after spending secret ingrediences, parts of his memory (loads of xp) as well as a share of its own lifeforce he finally got it. --> the dungeon master stands up and hands the DMG to his player, grabs a sheet from his pocket and is happy that he can play again. said differently: dont abuse the system. I don't know, but it sure would be fun to play. i dont think so. i have fun with my character doing things all by himself. gs Funny
Vorpal Warhammer 05-16-04, 09:41 AM	Originally posted by laotching Here's the interesting part: Though the spell Animate Dead doesn't specify the maximum HD of any skeleton you animate, the entry in the Monster Manual says skeletons of 20+ HD can't be animated. However, the new Draconomicon clearly and unequivocately states the Skeletal Dragon is created from Animate Dead. So we are led to believe 20 is the max HD for any animated skeleton except dragons. Theoretically, you could find an advanced, 140 HD dragon's corpse, cast Animate Dead on it, and go completely nuts. Here's a better idea: If you wait until epic levels to cast Animate Dead, you can first get Undead Mastery. So 35 * 10 = 350 HD. Go find a 350 HD corpse and you've pretty much figured out a way to coup-de-grace your DM. Does the Draconomicon specifically say dragons can go over the Skeleton HD limit, or does it just provide an example that breaks the rule? If it's the former, then your plan works. If it's the latter, then you're just exploting an editing mistake.
Beamup 05-16-04, 09:47 AM	Well, if you do this, you'll likely have just one little problem. As you noted, the cohorts/followers are loyal to the dragon, not you. Since they include several Epic characters, they'll certainly figure out pretty quick that you are in control of the skeleton (identifying animate dead is easy, and they'll know all about how it works)... and get mad. Unlikely they'll take orders not to destroy you, since they'll be well aware that the orders don't really originate with their leader. So until you come up with a way to keep all of these cohorts from tracking down the person who animated their leader and turning him into very small chunky bits, you've got a MAJOR problem.
Gravmyr 05-16-04, 10:06 AM	OK so you are running around behind the scenes giving orders to this skeletal dragon when a vampire comes across you/senses your still beating heart and decides to get a drink. If you do kill it you've just slain a follower/generalish type of this army. The rest turn on you and all that has to happen is for the dragon to sit back and wait for you to die. Emancipated Spawn anyone? EDIT: Yes it may say that it is created with animte undead but let's notice that writers of these books seldom pay attention to what they are writing. The sample mindspy in Complete Warrior couldn't have even entered the PrC because he hadn't met the requirements. For that matter there is a 1st level spell in the Ghostwalk campaign that kills a sleeping creature outright no save.
laotching 05-16-04, 03:36 PM	Funny: You sound bitter, like someone seeing a min/maxed character for the first time, though I know that's not the case. I wonder why you didn't say "don't abuse the system" on the Hulking Hurler build or any of the other whacky builds? "Coup-de-grace the DM" was a joke. Relax. Have a beer. Vorpal Warhammer and Gravmyr: It's clearly not a mistake or anything like that. I have the book; they introduce TWO NEW MONSTERS, called the skeletal dragon and the zombie dragon, give full monster-manual-style descriptions, and say they are created through Animate Dead in their intro paragraphs. Trust me, it's fine. Beamup: You can simply order the dragon to tell his cohorts and followers not to mess with you because of some reason or other. Alternatively, you can go lich yourself, so you won't be too big of a target.
James McMurray 05-16-04, 03:55 PM	I've never heard of Undead Leadership, but my SRD doesn't have the option to take any of the leadership feats multiple times. Perhap we're using a different DSRD or I'm misunderstanding your intent?
laotching 05-16-04, 04:06 PM	Undead Leadership: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/dx20021031x As to taking Leadership multiple times: http://www.dndadventure.com/html/articles/errata_dmg.html and http://www.enworld.org/forums/archive/index.php/t-86418 I'm too lazy to actually sift through wizards.com for it, and I don't subscribe to Dragon/Dungeon magazines.
MorandirNailo 05-16-04, 04:19 PM	That spell in Ghostwalk kills one willing creature, so obviously there won't be a save...it's not an attack spell, more like the Kevorkian Magic of DnD. Mor
James McMurray 05-16-04, 04:23 PM	I'm not sure where the leadership comment on the first link is from, but the actual DMG erratta at WotC mkes no mention of it, neither does either the 3.0 or the 3.5 FAQ.
laotching 05-16-04, 04:43 PM	http://p222.ezboard.com/fokayyourturnfrm13.showMessage?topicID=2 158.topic Ctrl+F "Leadership" Monte Cook has posted about the subject, apparently.
James McMurray 05-16-04, 06:51 PM	Of course, Monte Cook doesn't work for wizards anymore, and that particular ruling never made it into anything official. If you want to alow leadership multiple times that's cool. Just be aare that it leads to crazy things. Heck, even just taking the feat three times makes you at least twie as powerful as another character of your level that took regular feats.
laotching 05-16-04, 07:28 PM	You do realize that even with 1 Leadership feat, a level 12 character (wizard5/pale master1/ur-priest2/master of shrouds1/mystic theurge2/true necro1) can command a dragon whose cohort is a demilich?
incubus 05-16-04, 10:08 PM	Originally posted by laotching You do realize that even with 1 Leadership feat, a level 12 character (wizard5/pale master1/ur-priest2/master of shrouds1/mystic theurge2/true necro1) can command a dragon whose cohort is a demilich? Of course this is just yet another build relying on the brokenness of combining the 3.0 true necromancer with the 3.5 mystic theurge. And given that complete divine doesn't have a true necro in it, it doesn't seem likely that true necro will ever become a bona-fide 3.5 class.
laotching 05-16-04, 10:19 PM	True Necro is from Tome and Blood. They're going to reprint it (i.e., nerf it) in Complete Arcane.
James McMurray 05-16-04, 10:26 PM	Originally posted by laotching You do realize that even with 1 Leadership feat, a level 12 character (wizard5/pale master1/ur-priest2/master of shrouds1/mystic theurge2/true necro1) can command a dragon whose cohort is a demilich? Not if the DM has half a clue. :D
Funny Slaughter 05-16-04, 10:30 PM	Funny: You sound bitter, like someone seeing a min/maxed character for the first time *g* been here for quite a while I wonder why you didn't say "don't abuse the system" on the Hulking Hurler build or any of the other whacky builds? The Hulking Hurler was a great example of using the given rules in a way it made sense. Until a certain point, of course. Doing loads of damage is one thing, ruling the world just by using a badly worded passage is another. its great that you found it, its just my personal opinion that is not a worthy option to build a character on. btw, take a look at the build-FAQ for my own attempt on an evil leader. gs Funny
laotching 05-16-04, 10:44 PM	Originally posted by Funny Slaughter *g* been here for quite a while Yes, that's why I said "though I know that's not the case," which you failed to quote. Or which you purposely left out in order to say "been here quite a while." badly worded passage Which passage is the badly worded one? Which rule's language syntax am I abusing? I'll check out your evil leader in a bit.
Funny Slaughter 05-16-04, 11:00 PM	Or which you purposely left out in order to say "been here quite a while." yup :D Which passage is the badly worded one? Which rule's language syntax am I abusing? MM states that 20HD+ can not be animated. the example in the draconomicon is a) wrong b) badly worded because its not explaining anything but anyhow, i would say that awaken undead is a nice possiblity to get interesting feats for virtually free, even with less then 20HD animated. even a 18HD skeleton with leadership can give you quite a lot. and is maybe a bit easier to aquire as it is not a CR 27 monster... gs Funny
iN.fuSioN 05-17-04, 12:54 AM	This is the same as the Hulking Hurler or the Spelldancer: pointless. But in this case you really streched the rules to achieve it.
Vecna 05-17-04, 08:29 AM	I like overpowered builds, even if they have some fault, or stretch the rules too much. You could try (if possible at all) to: - make a dracolich instead of a skeleton dragon - become a Thrallherd (XPH) to have 2 cohorts (if multiple Leadership isn't allowed) then add Dragon Cohort and Undead Leadership if you are undead. Do the same - develope an epic spell to permanently fuse with the dragon to avoid cohorts rebellion.
TheLeviathan 05-17-04, 09:49 AM	"Though the spell Animate Dead doesn't specify the maximum HD of any skeleton you animate, the entry in the Monster Manual says skeletons of 20+ HD can't be animated. However, the new Draconomicon clearly and unequivocately states the Skeletal Dragon is created from Animate Dead. So we are led to believe 20 is the max HD for any animated skeleton except dragons. " This can, and will, be easily ready by an intelligent GM as "Dragons can be animated by the spell, but only if they're 20 hitdie or less". It's not rocket science people. Nothing short of an epic spell will let you raise a dragon skeleton with hitdie that high.
PhaedrusXY 05-17-04, 10:18 AM	Originally posted by TheLeviathan Nothing short of an epic spell will let you raise a dragon skeleton with hitdie that high. Umm... no. There are other really good spells that animate undead in some of the non-core books, like Animate Dread Warrior, and I think Create Undead or Create Greater Undead lets you animate corpses as a Juju zombies. Dread Warriors and Juju Zombies are both from the Unapproachable East book and are much better than creatures created with Animate Dead. There is a lot of room for improvement between 5th level spells and 9th level spells. You don't need to resort to epic stuff. Heck, most DMs would just let you research a higher level version of Animate Dead. I'd say a 7th level spell called Animate Greater Dead that does exactly the same thing without the HD cap would be entirely reasonable.
TheLeviathan 05-17-04, 10:29 AM	Every animate spell I know of has either a hitdie cap, or creates only a certain type of undead. You show me a spell that says you can raise a 40+ HD dragon, please, cuz I'm not sure there is one.
TheLeviathan 05-17-04, 10:38 AM	After doing my own research on the subject, because clearly it's just easier to do it yourself than expect someone else to, the 3.5 edition of animate dead clearly states: Regardless of the type of undead you create with this spell, you can not create more HD of undead than twice your caster level in a single casting of animate dead. Howver, the desecrate spell doubles this limit: see page 218. So, if you use Desecrate and animate in conjuction, the lvl 35 wizard mentioned about could at most reanimate a 70hd dragon. So, there ya go. Oh, wait......that's right, your DM can read...the monster manual states that you can't animate anything over 20+ hitdie. Why would it let you create an epic level monster without an epic level spell? The purpose of the spell is to allow you to animate relatively powerful undead at higher levels, even groups of them, but NOT to allow a 3-4th lvl (I forget which lvl) wiz spell to create an epic monster under your control. Of course, I don't know a DM in his right mind that would allow you to create and undead, pick it's feats for them (most DM's I know would pick the feats themselves. It 'is' an NPC afterall) and then proceed to create an army of epic lvl idiots who can't figure out that they're new "leader" is the puppet of a necromancer, but hey.....knock yourself out.
Beamup 05-17-04, 11:41 AM	Originally posted by laotching Beamup: You can simply order the dragon to tell his cohorts and followers not to mess with you because of some reason or other. Alternatively, you can go lich yourself, so you won't be too big of a target. They're cohorts and followers, not slaves, and not dominated. They have minds of their own. If their leader is under the control of somebody else, they will want to do something about it, and WON'T take orders telling them not to... since they will be well aware that the orders don't really come from their leader. Consider this case as an analogy. A PC has a Wizard cohort. An enemy casts dominate person on the PC (and the Wizard makes the Spellcraft check to identify it) and orders the PC to order the Wizard not to break the spell. The Wizard will certainly ignore said order and cast dispel magic. It's exactly the same thing.
ninja1 05-17-04, 02:14 PM	The undead dragons are described differently in the Draconomicon. They are significantly different than standard Skeletons and Zombies in the MM. Yes, the do not list a cap on HD in the Draconomicon. IIRC, the skeleton example is over 20 HD. ???? Originally posted by laotching So as long as this dragon stays alive (undead?) you can rule the world with his five ECL 17 cohorts and seven ECL 31 cohorts. As I love just about everything to do with undead, I think this is a great goal, but I have to dissagree with the way you phrase it. All game mechanics aside, part of the game is the DM providing a reasonable challenge to the PCs. Soooooo, If you had all these resources available, all the DM has to do is just develop more challenging encounters... This strategy does nothing to stop the DM from simply making social/physical/mental/combat challenges tougher! If you have a few uber undead, then you pose even more of a threat to (insert plane name here), and you would warant even more powerful (insert angel/celestial/whatever name here). But like I said, I love undead, so go for it! I never let a little thing like game balance or DM's perogative hold me back. Shoot for the stars I say!! Originally posted by TheLeviathan Regardless of the type of undead you create with this spell, you can not create more HD of undead than twice your caster level in a single casting of animate dead. Howver, the desecrate spell doubles this limit: see page 218. Originally posted by TheLeviathan So, if you use Desecrate and animate in conjuction, the lvl 35 wizard mentioned about could at most reanimate a 70hd dragon. Math error, caster level 35 x 2 = 70 Desecrate double this limit = 140 Beamup and others are right in saying what the NPCs could do to thwart this, but then again laotching also describes this as "Theoretically" possible. I assume we all know about rule 0 and the basics about how the DM (not the PCs) set up the adventure. So it is possible that the entire troupe of PCs could die of heart attacks in their sleep or from falling, miniature, giant space hampsters. And it is also possible to create uber undead and rule the world. I'll just let it be at that. :D
laotching 05-17-04, 04:34 PM	This thread is not about the DM's powers or what he *should* do to balance the game or whatnot. This is about abusing the rules, like many other threads on this board. First of all, the people who don't have Draconomicon should refrain from replying. If you don't have the rules, beat it. I'm tired of reading the same WRONG thing over and over. The spell does not list HD/monster cap. This means when you cast the spell, there is no cap. The skeleton entry does. This means when you animate a regular skeleton, there is a cap. The skeletal dragon entry implies there is no HD cap. This means when you are not creating a regular skeleton anymore, and instead you are creating a skeletal dragon, there is no cap. The example they give is a "skeletal mature adult red dragon" with "22d12 + 12 (165hp)" as the Hit Dice entry. The description says "Skeletal dragons are created via the [I]animate dead[/I spell and function as normal skeletons in most ways, although they retain a few of their draconic abilities and qualities even after death." Then it says "skeletal is an acquired template that can be applied TO ANY DRAGON." I guess if we were to ignore the blatant changing of the 20HD rule for skeletal dragons, we might as well ignore all the other stuff that differs from the Skeleton template as described in the monster manual, right? Skeletal dragons get to keep their Charisma? Hell no, that's not what the MM says! Frightful presence? No way! Improved Grab? Nope, because the MM says skeletons lose all Special attacks!
Gravmyr 05-17-04, 04:41 PM	Yes the spell in Ghostwalk is one willing creature but if you read your PHB under targeting spells that require willing recipients then you would see that unconcious creatures are always counted as willing. Again a poorly worded/ not fully thought out phrase does not mean you should/shouldn't use it in a build, just you should see that it makes sense within an interpretation. If you have multiple sources telling you something can't be done and one that does the one that does should have some special ability to allow it. This is particularly true when one source saying it doesn't work is core. EDIT: Also I just had a look at your errata and as far as I can tell it's 3.0 errata not 3.5 so unless they wanted it in and forgot it *again* and forgot it in the errata too no multiple leadership feats. The undead leadership feat was at least thought out otherwise it's leadership score was 1 as leadership doesn't count HD just character levels. So technically it is almost legal but missing that vital piece which is that the spell having not been reprinted in Draconimicon it still goes by that ruling in the PHB that no creature with HD over 20 but as pointed out you simply create a new spell that can.
TheLeviathan 05-17-04, 04:54 PM	Math error, yes. And after looking over the draconomicon in more detail, yes you could raise a dragon skeleton. (though for game balance purposes, no DM would allow it, but whatever, the thread starter refuses to hear that) You still will have to deal with: Finding a DM who will let you choose the dragon's feats, rather than allowing the intelligent NPC to pick it's own feats. Find a way for it's followers, if it had any, not to gank you.
TheLeviathan 05-17-04, 06:58 PM	Also: "How come a lame skeleton, by virtue of a lot of hit dice, can have liches and demiliches under his command?" The answer is none. Liches can't be created via the create undead spell, and the template itself says that a willing person must turn themselves into a lich (Or a dragon must be willing to be turned into a dracolich by someone else). You can't force an intelligent spellcaster to become a lich and become a controlled undead. Not to mention a demilich, there's absolutely no way you can just 'make one your *****'.
laotching 05-17-04, 09:11 PM	Gravmyr and Leviathan, I'm going to be cordial, though it is getting more and more difficult. 1. Nobody is talking about Ghostwalk. 2. Do not reply if you have not read through this thread, especially my posts. it still goes by that ruling in the PHB that no creature with HD over 20 but as pointed out you simply create a new spell that can. Gee, I swore I've said three times now that it was not in the SPELL ENTRY in the PHB but in the SPECIFIC MONSTER ENTRY in the MM. Guess what? You're not creating that monster anymore! You're creating a new one, the Skeletal Dragon, which is found in the Draconomicon! Go buy it. If you don't want to, stop posting inane comments in my thread. Finding a DM who will let you choose the dragon's feats, rather than allowing the intelligent NPC to pick it's own feats. Find a way for it's followers, if it had any, not to gank you. Yes, those are real problems, though with some roleplaying and a willing DM, they could be resolved. Liches can't be created via the create undead spell, and the template itself says that a willing person must turn themselves into a lich (Or a dragon must be willing to be turned into a dracolich by someone else). You can't force an intelligent spellcaster to become a lich and become a controlled undead. Not to mention a demilich, there's absolutely no way you can just 'make one your *****'. Nobody is creating a lich, kid. Your dragon is attracting them through Leadership by virtue of his high Hit Dice. Again, take the time to read through my original post and the subsequent replies before trying to knock it.
Gravmyr 05-17-04, 10:12 PM	First off the Ghostwalk spell was brought up to illustrate a point, simply put the Draconimicon is not a core book it does not override core material. I know skeleton and skeletal are different templates but they failed to fix on minor problem. I have one simple question, is Animate Dead reprinted allowing the creation of skeletal creatures also? If not despite what a template might say the spell itself does not grant the use of this template instead of skeleton. To prove my point directly from the current errata "When you find a disagreement between two D&D rules sources, unless an official errata file says otherwise, the primary source is correct. One example of a primary/secondary source is text taking precedence over a table entry. An individual spell description takes precedence when the short description in the beginning of the spells chapter disagrees." I have said though that you can create another spell that allows it. That's not a big problem easily fixed with a little research which is a good adventure hook by itself. Yes I see that it is not included in the PHB but the MM and I admit that particular stand is washed out. I'm simply looking at this from a rules stand point now, if the spell was not updated then you cannot create anything besides skeletons and zombies.
TheLeviathan 05-17-04, 11:31 PM	I've also pointed out that the creation of another spell could easily circumvent the problems, if your DM allows it. As for: "Your dragon is attracting them through Leadership by virtue of his high Hit Dice. " A lich would actually follow a big skeleton with lots of hitpoints? Or a demilich for that matter? ROFL......Ok.....whatever. As for the 'kid' comment, I'm 27 years old yet I feel like I'm 57. I wish I was still a kid. But thanks for the insult anyway. If you can't handle constructive critisism and rule clarifications without acting like a 'kid' yourself, maybe you shouldn't post on a public board. I have no intention of insulting you, but I'm used to being lonely around moral highground.
The Lone Drow 05-18-04, 02:33 AM	For what it's worth, is there really such need for blatant sarcasm and agressiveness? If people disagree over rules and the like, great, the more discussion the better. It's through normal conversation that we will be able to surpass certain challenges that the books provide in order to really max out a certain specific part of the game and have fun with it. All this bitterness just provokes more bitterness and doesn't really server the purpose of a discussion board. Accept the questioning for what it is and POLITELY point out your views, for it will do no one no good to address everyone in this manner.
catharz 05-18-04, 05:05 AM	Originally posted by Gravmyr First off the Ghostwalk spell was brought up to illustrate a point, simply put the Draconimicon is not a core book it does not override core material. I know skeleton and skeletal are different templates but they failed to fix on minor problem. I have one simple question, is Animate Dead reprinted allowing the creation of skeletal creatures also? If not despite what a template might say the spell itself does not grant the use of this template instead of skeleton. To prove my point directly from the current errata "When you find a disagreement between two D&D rules sources, unless an official errata file says otherwise, the primary source is correct. One example of a primary/secondary source is text taking precedence over a table entry. An individual spell description takes precedence when the short description in the beginning of the spells chapter disagrees." I have said though that you can create another spell that allows it. That's not a big problem easily fixed with a little research which is a good adventure hook by itself. Yes I see that it is not included in the PHB but the MM and I admit that particular stand is washed out. I'm simply looking at this from a rules stand point now, if the spell was not updated then you cannot create anything besides skeletons and zombies. You've opened my eyes! All of those spells my character was using from Player's guide to Faerun were illegal, because they weren't on the Wizard spell list in th PHB! The PGtF may have *said* they were Sorceror/Wizard spells, but the PHB says nothing about them, and the PHB is always right. And all of those PrCs me and my friends though were soo cool? They don't even exist! We were lead to believe they did by the splat books, but they were never mentioned in the DMG! Why did I even buy any non-'core' books? None of them actually contain any useful information! Everything in them is in error! The point? You need to take these things with a grain of salt. The splat books cas *add* to the rules (thats what they're there for) but they can't contradict them unless there is official errata. The PHB tells you some things you can do with Animate dead, but it doesn't tell you everything you can't do with it. Once the PHB starts saying "Animate dead will not animate dead cabbages with the Skeletal template," then your argument may carry some weight.
laotching 05-18-04, 05:34 AM	Originally posted by TheLeviathan As for: "Your dragon is attracting them through Leadership by virtue of his high Hit Dice. " A lich would actually follow a big skeleton with lots of hitpoints? Or a demilich for that matter? ROFL......Ok.....whatever. I'm saddened a 27 year old would type "ROFL" on a messageboard for one thing, but I think said 27 year old's inability to read my posts takes the cake. I said the rules allowed for the skeleton to control a demilich, but then I said, and I quote: there are some serious logical problems with this. How come a lame skeleton, by virtue of a lot of hit dice, can have liches and demiliches under his command? But obviously you like to take the "moral high ground" and retype that, pretending I didn't acknowledge it previously and pretending you're some sort of genius for figuring it out. (Besides, you consider an argument on DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS STRATEGY to have a moral high and low ground? And you're 27?) To TheLoneDrow: I know what you mean, although sometimes it's hard to restrain myself when all I read is absurd, blatant stupidity and a refusal to read carefully the original post or subsequent replies. People have something they want to say because it will boost their self-esteem to knock another's gamebreaker, so they say it without checking the actual books or even making sure it hasn't been acknowledged by the original poster already. catharz: Thank you for saving me the trouble of another round of sarcasm.
pokemaniacbill 05-18-04, 05:43 AM	Cool, but hardly fun to do in practice. Theoretically is kicks ass though.
Vecna 05-18-04, 05:51 AM	OMG! A skeleton with a demilich as a cohort! If you go on with this absurdity, one day Jack Chick will come and take your soul to Hell! :rofl:
Gravmyr 05-18-04, 10:33 AM	As someone posted elsewhere on the forums the PHB also doesn't state that humans don't get to fly or breathe fire, by your stand if it was even implied anywhere, which is all that template is doing, they can. I was trying to be nice about it and now I'll get a bit rude read an entire post as laotching is so very fond of saying. I stated a simple new spell is enough to hatch the only new problem with it now. As far as your "wasting" money on FAerun material it also reprints all relevent changes that it makes to the rules unlike this template. It includes and updated wizards list that specifically states those spells are added to their spells lists. Simply put no where did anyone say that core is the only legal material just that when there is a conflict, as there obviously is in this case, the core material is correct. EDIT: Edited to correct my personal anger and provide a more open forum to speak as adults.
Skulan 05-18-04, 01:02 PM	Some of the problems with a lowly skeleton commanding others go away if it has an intelligence score. If it isn't mindless, simply loyal to its creator, than the original mage may be due some deference by the undead hordes as the "father" of their lord and master. All that hinges upon the Awaken Undead spell, which I admit I'm not familiar with. Where is it from? Does it have any limitations or extra details that may help the arguments one way or another? And speaking of arguments, this is the nature of the online world. When people do not have to speak face to face, many of the consequences for being impolite fall away, leaving people to ask as they wish they could act in real life. Psychologically freeing, perhaps, but in no way conducive to building a community or having a civil discussion. All anyone can do in the face of this is to maintain civility in one's own posts, and try to ignore any offensive jabs that come up. Well, that's all that can be done without moderator status, anyway. -Skulan
TheLeviathan 05-18-04, 02:10 PM	Agreed Skul. And yeah, I'm not at all sure what Awaken Undead does exactly, but if it functions like Awaken, it makes a non intelligent (whatever the target is, with awaken it's an animal) creature moderately intelligent. It also leaves the recipient friendly to the creature who cast the awaken spell. I'd imagine that awaken undead isn't much different.