Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Auldar 07-26-06, 08:16 PM	Anyone taken a look at the Midgard Dwarf in Frostburn? It has a rather interesting and potentially abusable Extraordinary ability: Master Smith (Ex). Without going into detail, this ability provides the feats for, and allows the dwarf to bypass any and all prerequisites (including the ability to cast spells :eek:, and RAW, caster levels :cool:, and at a stretch, maybe XP costs), for creating any arms, armor, ring, or wondrous item. It's a small outsider, so that may make becoming this dwarf challenging, but there's ways to Wild Shape and or Polymorph into an Outsider right? The described dwarf is 8HD. Alternatively, for an LA of +4, you could always make a character and have him hang around soaking up XP for use in crafting. I think he'd have an ECL of 12 though due to the 8HD. I'm sure the CO regulars can find a way to abuse this better than me though :) Let the games begin! EDIT: Crafting requires full days of work, so we'd have to find a way to become this guy for 24 hours at a time.. Perhaps PaO?
pascuahl 07-26-06, 08:46 PM	Leadership feat. Be a dwarf yourself with your own free walking item fabric. Cha penalty? Then buy a boat and become a viking captain and use that fancy hat in Stormwrack that gives you a bonus on Leadership.
PhoenixInferno 07-26-06, 09:05 PM	Artificers with those crafting homunculi are better, I think. They don't need to eat or sleep. Or breathe - so you can stick 'em in a extra large Bag of Holding.
Auldar 07-26-06, 09:52 PM	Artificers with those crafting homunculi are better, I think. They don't need to eat or sleep. Or breathe - so you can stick 'em in a extra large Bag of Holding. Handy yes, but still would not be able to meet the prerequisites for many items I don't think. I'll admit to not knowing a whole lot about Artificers - are they able to emulate all divine and arcane spells? This dwarf's Ex. ability will basically let it meet the prerequisites for ANY spell, and caster level.
PhoenixInferno 07-26-06, 09:54 PM	I'll admit to not knowing a whole lot about Artificers - are they able to emulate all divine and arcane spells?They wouldn't be the key to Ultimate Power (TM) if they couldn't... :)
GDarius 07-26-06, 09:56 PM	Handy yes, but still would not be able to meet the prerequisites for many items I don't think. I'll admit to not knowing a whole lot about Artificers - are they able to emulate all divine and arcane spells? This dwarf's Ex. ability will basically let it meet the prerequisites for ANY spell, and caster level. Artificers can't just do it, but yes, with a UMD check, they can emulate any Cleric or Wizard spell. As well as any Druid, Paladin, Ranger, Assassin, Wu-Jen, etc. spell you'd care to name. They also get damn near every crafting feat for free at some point in their career.
Auldar 07-26-06, 09:58 PM	Leadership feat. Be a dwarf yourself with your own free walking item fabric. Cha penalty? Then buy a boat and become a viking captain and use that fancy hat in Stormwrack that gives you a bonus on Leadership. Hmm.. Nice idea - can you attract an outsider for a cohort? You could always be a Gold Dwarf - the penalty is to dex rather than cha.
Auldar 07-26-06, 10:00 PM	Artificers can't just do it, but yes, with a UMD check, they can emulate any Cleric or Wizard spell. As well as any Druid, Paladin, Ranger, Assassin, Wu-Jen, etc. spell you'd care to name. They also get damn near every crafting feat for free at some point in their career. And they just have to "infuse" that into their construct once per item creation? I thought you usually needed to be able to cast that spell each day when creating an item. How about being able to create CL20 items as an 8HD being? Can they do that? :P
SigmaJargon 07-26-06, 10:03 PM	Artificers with those crafting homunculi are better, I think. They don't need to eat or sleep. Or breathe - so you can stick 'em in a extra large Bag of Holding.Perhaps an Awakened Zombie Midgard Dwarf should be considered. It also would not have to sleep, eat, breathe, rest, etc. It also could be created by a sorcerer/wizard or cleric with the Deathbound domain without much additional effort.
nbhs275 07-26-06, 10:07 PM	the one penelty isnt going to make a huge difference. Mitigating extreme situations you should be able to get a 12ecl cohort at level 14( 14 level-charisma 1 +Great renown +2 Fairness and generosity +1 Special power +1 =17)
PhoenixInferno 07-26-06, 10:08 PM	Awakened Zombie? Could you apply the Spellstitched template instead? Don't have my Libris Mortis handy right now.
GDarius 07-26-06, 10:09 PM	And they just have to "infuse" that into their construct once per item creation? I thought you usually needed to be able to cast that spell each day when creating an item. How about being able to create CL20 items as an 8HD being? Can they do that? According to ECS, they get to make one UMD check for each day of production (they don't have to expend any spell slots or the like to make this check. Just roll d20 and add your Use Magic Device total), and one additional check at the very end of the process. If even one of these succeed, the item is successfully made. Admittedly, as an 8HD being, an Artificer could only make CL 10 items, so the Midgard Dwarf has him there...
Auldar 07-26-06, 10:14 PM	Admittedly, as an 8HD being, an Artificer could only make CL 10 items, so the Midgard Dwarf has him there... Well that's something :P Sorry, I'm fairly new here and thought this was a rather interesting find. Seems like it's not actually that exciting?
GDarius 07-26-06, 10:20 PM	Oh, it is a very good ability, and I've only ever seen it discussed once before. It's just that not too many DMs are likely to allow a Midgard Dwarf PC, or even a cohort. The Artificer, meanwhile, is a base class from Eberron, so people playing in that campaign setting can't exactly just brush it away. If you happen to be the DM however, a Midgard Dwarf would make a very cool NPC. You could probably pull one off as a BBEG, depending on the campaign and character level.
Auldar 07-26-06, 10:37 PM	Oh, it is a very good ability, and I've only ever seen it discussed once before. It's just that not too many DMs are likely to allow a Midgard Dwarf PC, or even a cohort. The Artificer, meanwhile, is a base class from Eberron, so people playing in that campaign setting can't exactly just brush it away. If you happen to be the DM however, a Midgard Dwarf would make a very cool NPC. You could probably pull one off as a BBEG, depending on the campaign and character level. Fair call :P I was actually hoping we could find some way of Polymorphing or Wild Shaping into one and gaining it's Ex. abilities, such that you wouldn't have to play one or take one as a cohort. It would still depend on the DM, as you'd need to be familiar with the dwarf before being able to transform into one. EDIT: Oops - it's an Ex. special quality, so Polymorph wouldn't cut it (it's duration wouldn't have worked either). Does Polymorph Any Object grant Ex. Special Qualities? How would you rate the conversion in terms of Duration Factor?
GDarius 07-26-06, 10:54 PM	The Master of Many Forms PrC (from CAdv) gives you all Ex Special Qualities of any creature you wildshape into at level 7. At that point, a single wildshape duration would be about 12-17 hours (depending on how late you got into the PrC), and you'd have at least 8 uses of it (which means you'd be able to spend about 84 hours in wild shape). The problem is getting Outsider as an allowed shape. I don't know if its possible pre-epic. I'd check the handbook, but it's about high time I got some shuteye. Here's a link (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=639448) though.
PhaedrusXY 07-26-06, 11:05 PM	SigmaJargon already mentioned the best way to exploit this. I will extrapolate a bit: 1) Cast Planar Binding, and Call a Midgard Dwarf. They are Outsiders, so this should work with no questions asked, if they exist in your DM's campaign and you know of them. 2) Kill it. 3) Cast Animate Dead on the corpse. 4) Cast Awaken Undead on it. It now gets back all of its extraordinary abilities, and nothing in Awaken Undead indicates that you lose control of it after it is awakened.
Auldar 07-26-06, 11:15 PM	SigmaJargon already mentioned the best way to exploit this. I will extrapolate a bit: 1) Cast Planar Binding, and Call a Midgard Dwarf. They are Outsiders, so this should work with no questions asked, if they exist in your DM's campaign and you know of them. 2) Kill it. 3) Cast Animate Dead on the corpse. 4) Cast Awaken Undead on it. It now gets back all of its extraordinary abilities, and nothing in Awaken Undead indicates that you lose control of it after it is awakened. Now we're talking :)
nbhs275 07-26-06, 11:37 PM	then just have it make an item that can do that exact some thing once a day....rinse, repeat, until you have an outsider army....with vorpral longswords and such
HelloRaptor 07-27-06, 01:26 AM	Err... from the Zombie writeup. A zombie loses most special qualities of the base creature. It retains any extraordinary special qualities that improve its melee or ranged attacks. How does turning it into a Zombie allow it to retain this ability, again? Edited: Oops, I missed the Awaken bit, or its implications. My bad. :) Thanks for the correction. ;)
PhaedrusXY 07-27-06, 01:31 AM	Err... from the Zombie writeup. A zombie loses most special qualities of the base creature. It retains any extraordinary special qualities that improve its melee or ranged attacks. How does turning it into a Zombie allow it to retain this ability, again? Umm... I guess you missed this: 4) Cast Awaken Undead on it. It now gets back all of its extraordinary abilities, and nothing in Awaken Undead indicates that you lose control of it after it is awakened.Awaken Undead is in Libris Mortis.
Mystic Ninja 07-27-06, 02:04 AM	How are these zombies paying the XP to craft these items? Despite the OP's suggestion that they could happily ignore XP, nothing in the ability description suggests that this would ever actually happen.
Auldar 07-27-06, 02:19 AM	How are these zombies paying the XP to craft these items? Despite the OP's suggestion that they could happily ignore XP, nothing in the ability description suggests that this would ever actually happen. I didn't claim it can be ignored, I said it could be interpretted (at a stretch) that "considered to meet the prerequisites required to craft any magic item of those types, even if they don't meet the requirements or have the ability to cast the required spells", could include XP costs. Not having the XP to spare seems to me to fall into the catagory of "not meeting the requirements". You might note I also spoke of having a character around to sponge XP to use to craft items (making the assumption that the XP and GP cost still had to be met).
PhaedrusXY 07-27-06, 02:34 AM	There are rules in the Book of Vile Darkness on using ritual sacrifices (via Knowledge: Religion) to get "Dark Craft" XP. These zombies could use that to craft minor magic items. Ninja1 had a thread devoted to getting as high a Know: Religion check as possible for this purpose.
Mystic Ninja 07-27-06, 02:43 AM	I didn't claim it can be ignored, I said it could be interpretted (at a stretch) that "considered to meet the prerequisites required to craft any magic item of those types, even if they don't meet the requirements or have the ability to cast the required spells", could include XP costs. Not having the XP to spare seems to me to fall into the catagory of "not meeting the requirements". You might note I also spoke of having a character around to sponge XP to use to craft items (making the assumption that the XP and GP cost still had to be met). How is the character supposed to "sponge XP"? It's not actually something people can walk around doing. XP isn't like a lighter. The ability says "They are considered to possess the prerequisites necessary..." - XP and GP are not prerequisites to craft a given item, they are a cost incurred when you actually craft the item. Caster level, spells, feats, special abilities [creator must be an elf, etc.] are prerequisites, cost is not. Connecting the two is like saying owning a non-light weapon is a prerequisite for power attack - its not, you're just unable to use the feat without one. The only way to make this character really viable is to get the artificer ability retain essence - Midgard Dwarf 12 / Artificer 5 / Syberris Heir 3 would be a workable build. Unlimited free Arms, Armour, Rings and Wonderous Items. Then again Artificer 17/ Syberris Heir 3 has that beat seven ways from sunday, because it does all that, and more. There are rules in the Book of Vile Darkness on using ritual sacrifices (via Knowledge: Religion) to get "Dark Craft" XP. These zombies could use that to craft minor magic items. Ninja1 had a thread devoted to getting as high a Know: Religion check as possible for this purpose. Actually if you combined that with thrallherd [with two Dwarves as thralls who actually lead the rituals], you have several hundred potential sacrifices a day, using half as Dark Craft XP and half as Dark Craft GP. Not terribly efficient but hey, its free and unlimited, which is always good.
Auldar 07-27-06, 02:59 AM	How is the character supposed to "sponge XP"? It's not actually something people can walk around doing. Maybe you missed the part where I said you'd roll up the 12ECL character? 8HD + 4 LA. That's the character that would be running around with your adventuring group getting the required XP to create the items. I meant sponge as in be awarded XP, but not with the intention of leveling up - just to use the XP to create items. The ability says "They are considered to possess the prerequisites necessary..." - XP and GP are not prerequisites to craft a given item, they are a cost incurred when you actually craft the item. Caster level, spells, feats, special abilities [creator must be an elf, etc.] are prerequisites, cost is not. Yep, I think you are 100% correct. The only way to make this character really viable is to get the artificer ability retain essence - Midgard Dwarf 12 / Artificer 5 / Syberris Heir 3 would be a workable build. Unlimited free Arms, Armour, Rings and Wonderous Items. Then again Artificer 17/ Syberris Heir 3 has that beat seven ways from sunday, because it does all that, and more. It was just something interesting I saw, and thought it might have potential. It certainly seems like I might have to read up on Artificers.
Mystic Ninja 07-27-06, 04:38 AM	Maybe you missed the part where I said you'd roll up the 12ECL character? 8HD + 4 LA. That's the character that would be running around with your adventuring group getting the required XP to create the items. I meant sponge as in be awarded XP, but not with the intention of leveling up - just to use the XP to create items. Yep, I think you are 100% correct. It was just something interesting I saw, and thought it might have potential. It certainly seems like I might have to read up on Artificers. Potential sure [see above the dark craft business can get sick if the DM allows it], but its such limited potential. I didn't miss the part where you mentioned playing as one of these things, but really at ECL12, you're gonna be weak. I'd rather play just about anything then one of these in a 12 level game. Also spending a LOT of XP [which you will be if you want to craft all the Ubah Lewts that make this race worth looking at] you ain't gonna go much past that weak ECL12 character. Best bet is to play an artificer, enjoy all aspects of the game, level up, use ya craft reserve, go nova every so often in combat [not to often as to get the class banned]. Definately read up on Artificers - they make Clerics and Druids look like wimps.
SigmaJargon 07-27-06, 05:31 AM	About the Heir of Siberys - the Mark of Making got the nerf stick in the errata. No more XP free True Creation. On the other hand, the oh-so-broken Thought Bottle survived the Complete Arcane errata without a scratch. Go figure. I really like both the Thrallherd or the Awakened Zombie ideas. I think the Thrallherd would be best, since it gives a steady sources of sacrifices, and the cohorts could also craft straight from their XP reserve (and also abuse the Thought Bottle and various money making tricks, if you want to go that far) In terms of actually playing one as a PC, though, I do agree with everybody else here that Artificer has the Midgard Dwarf beaten out.
Gryftir 07-27-06, 07:53 AM	You know, you could also use a thought bottle, and the PHBII web enhancement spells that let you transfer XP to another person for purposes of crafting items. Ignoring XP costs, a +5 tome or manual is only 6,250 gp. You can afford to have all of them.
Auldar 07-27-06, 07:41 PM	You know, you could also use a thought bottle, and the PHBII web enhancement spells that let you transfer XP to another person for purposes of crafting items. Ignoring XP costs, a +5 tome or manual is only 6,250 gp. You can afford to have all of them. Most weapon enchants don't actually cost any XP - there's probably quite a few items you could get crafted or enchanted without worrying about costs. For example - If you already had a +1 longsword, couldn't you cast Planar Binding, summon a Midgard Dwarf (do it in a "workshop"), and compel him to enchant your weapons for you? He'd get a chance every day to break out of your trap, but there's no reason you couldn't just summon another one to finish any work it didn't complete if it manages to escape.. Would you still have to pay half the cost of the enchantment in materials? Say I had a +1 longsword and wanted to put the +1 keen enchantment on it using a summoned Midgard Dwarf - what would it cost? It would almost certainly be cheaper..
pascuahl 07-27-06, 09:55 PM	Hmm.. Nice idea - can you attract an outsider for a cohort? You could always be a Gold Dwarf - the penalty is to dex rather than cha. Dungeon Master's Guide Thaumaturgist ;)
Auldar 07-27-06, 10:18 PM	Dungeon Master's Guide Thaumaturgist ;) Awesome.. who'd have thought a long forgotten DMG PrC might have a use :P Imagine having a cleric character you stuck in a town at lvl 10 with lots of excess xp, a Midgard Dwarf Cohort, a thought bottle, and whatever PHB2 spells Gryftir was talking about.. You can then have your characters visit your friendly cleric whenever they need some enchanting or crafting work done.. Man - this could actually work.
Esponer 07-27-06, 10:18 PM	Why not just play a neraph (outsider, no LA or racial HD), and use polymorph with Master of Many Forms? Anything outright preventing that? To the OP, what argument is there for it not requiring XP cost? That would seem like the most useful thing here, if it's really true.
Auldar 07-27-06, 10:25 PM	Why not just play a neraph (outsider, no LA or racial HD), and use polymorph with Master of Many Forms? Anything outright preventing that? To the OP, what argument is there for it not requiring XP cost? That would seem like the most useful thing here, if it's really true. Not much argument.. just the words "considered to meet the prerequisites... even if they do not otherwise meet the requirements or have the ability to cast the required spells". At a stretch, you might be able to convince a DM that having gold or XP to create the item is one of the "requirements", and even though the Midgard Dwarf doesn't have the XP or gold on hand, he's special and doesn't need em :P Pretty weak, sorry :P At least you can bypass Caster Levels.
Auldar 07-27-06, 10:30 PM	Another interesting use for them is this.. "All Midgard Dwarves equip themselves with magical items." If you're seriously strapped for cash, you could keep summoning them with Planar Binding, slaughter them and sell the proceeds. The example has a few +2 items and a couple of +1 items. EDIT: You probably should be aware that the dwarf is likely to curse you before he dies :P Nothing a Remove Curse couldn't fix I don't think.
Lokiyn 07-27-06, 10:30 PM	i've been waiting for someone to bring this up, since they haven't Prerequisites Certain requirements must be met in order for a character to create a magic item. These include feats, spells, and miscellaneous requirements such as level, alignment, and race or kind. The prerequisites for creation of an item are given immediately following the item’s caster level. A spell prerequisite may be provided by a character who has prepared the spell (or who knows the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard), or through the use of a spell completion or spell trigger magic item or a spell-like ability that produces the desired spell effect. For each day that passes in the creation process, the creator must expend one spell completion item or one charge from a spell trigger item if either of those objects is used to supply a prerequisite. It is possible for more than one character to cooperate in the creation of an item, with each participant providing one or more of the prerequisites. In some cases, cooperation may even be necessary. If two or more characters cooperate to create an item, they must agree among themselves who will be considered the creator for the purpose of determinations where the creator’s level must be known. The character designated as the creator pays the XP required to make the item. Typically, a list of prerequisites includes one feat and one or more spells (or some other requirement in addition to the feat). When two spells at the end of a list are separated by "or," one of those spells is required in addition to every other spell mentioned prior to the last two. Exp and gold fall underCost to Create The next part of a notational entry is the cost in gp and XP to create the item, given following the word "Cost." This information appears only for items with components (material or XP), which make their market prices higher than their base prices. The cost to create includes the costs derived from the base cost plus the costs of the components. Items without components do not have a "Cost" entry. For them, the market price and the base price are the same. The cost in gp is ½ the market price, and the cost in XP is 1/25 the market price.
Auldar 07-27-06, 10:37 PM	As I said, weak :P While noone else quoted the SRD, Mystic Ninja did point out that cost was not the same as prerequisite on page 1. Still, this little guy can definitely come in handy.
Mystic Ninja 07-28-06, 01:29 AM	Dungeon Master's Guide Thaumaturgist ;) Is there a rule to stop anyone having an outsider cohort? I know they get it special but is there an actual rule?
Lokiyn 07-28-06, 01:50 AM	Nope, technically you can attract any cohort of any type you want Cohort Level The character can attract a cohort of up to this level. Regardless of a character’s Leadership score, he can only recruit a cohort who is two or more levels lower than himself. The cohort should be equipped with gear appropriate for its level. A character can try to attract a cohort of a particular race, class, and alignment. The cohort’s alignment may not be opposed to the leader’s alignment on either the law-vs-chaos or good-vs-evil axis, and the leader takes a Leadership penalty if he recruits a cohort of an alignment different from his own.
ronyon 07-28-06, 03:14 PM	I have a question. Given the "These include feats, spells, and miscellaneous requirements such as level, alignment, and race or kind. " caluse, would this guy be good for all those racially exclusive Grafts that I find myself wanting? Also, where does the process of becoming a Necropolitan put one at, XP wise? If it is at some middle level, then one could perhaps squeeze a little out of each of these guys...
Auldar 07-28-06, 08:27 PM	I have a question. Given the "These include feats, spells, and miscellaneous requirements such as level, alignment, and race or kind. " caluse, would this guy be good for all those racially exclusive Grafts that I find myself wanting? Also, where does the process of becoming a Necropolitan put one at, XP wise? If it is at some middle level, then one could perhaps squeeze a little out of each of these guys... Don't think so - unless the graft falls into the magic arms and armor, wondrous item, or ring catagory. He doesn't have the Graft Flesh or Graft Yaun-ti feats.. Which grafts were you thinking of?
nbhs275 07-28-06, 11:40 PM	i find the best grafter is a chameleon, who can pick up the feat as long as he needs it, and drop it when he doesnt
Auldar 08-01-06, 09:42 PM	Any other suggestions? It would be ideal if we can assume this guys form and retain his Ex. abilities rather than have him as a Cohort (LA/ECL comes into play), or have him as an undead minion (XP costs will be painful to get around - possible, but painful).
Pinky's brain 08-01-06, 10:03 PM	There are infinite crafting XP tricks, but what is the point? The DM will beat you down anyway. My favorite is the level loss trick, since it only requires core.
Auldar 08-01-06, 10:21 PM	There are infinite crafting XP tricks, but what is the point? The DM will beat you down anyway. My favorite is the level loss trick, since it only requires core. How's that work? Hit someone with a level drain effect? Could you summon this guy, hit him with a level drain so he has XP to spend, and make a pact with him that you'll let him go after he's crafted you the greatsword of super-uber, and the Mechanus gear of uber-protection?
Pinky's brain 08-01-06, 10:55 PM	If you loose a level you get put at the midpoint in XP of your previous level. So level loss -> crafting -> restoration works, costs you 100 gp every time ... but that is a small price. As for the planar binding, sure you could do that ... of course you would not let him go at the end, but simply kill him.
Auldar 08-01-06, 11:19 PM	If you loose a level you get put at the midpoint in XP of your previous level. So level loss -> crafting -> restoration works, costs you 100 gp every time ... but that is a small price. Nifty :P As for the planar binding, sure you could do that ... of course you would not let him go at the end, but simply kill him. Well, if you make the pact that you'll let him go if he completes a task for you, all he has to do is finish the task and tell you, and he's free to go. From the SRD: Once the requested service is completed, the creature need only so inform you to be instantly sent back whence it came. The creature might later seek revenge.
Auldar 09-18-06, 12:22 AM	Anyone else find this interesting, or have any useful ideas on how to capitalise? Planar Shepherd might be useful if you could select a plane these guys come from in Eberron (not likely). Mind you, Planar Shepherd is super broken anyway.