Post/Author/DateTime	Post
jtgalt 03-11-04, 01:19 PM	Here is the build my buddy and I hashed out until 2am for his AC/HP fighter. Let me know what y'all think: 3.0 rules, Core books + splat only. 30pt build. STR: 16 DEX: 13 CON:15 INT: 13 WIS: 10 CHA: 8 Human 1 Fighter/Expertise/Alertness/Weapon Focus(BattleAxe) 2 Fighter/Endurance 3 Fighter/Improved Trip 4 Fighter 5 Cleric 6 Cleric/KnockDown 7 Devoted Defender 8 Templar 9 Fighter/Improved Critical 10 Fighter/Dragon's Toughness Now, the character can either go straight fighter and take all Dragon's Toughness, gaining an additional 96hp at level 20, *OR* he can take the rest of Devoted Defender, use his feats for Dragon's Toughness, and get 36HP and 4AC
rilem 03-11-04, 02:13 PM	You can save yourself a feat by taking the War Domain and choosing a Deity with favored weapon (battleaxe). But why Cleric at all? Your wisdom is too low to cast spells. The Templar, I suppose, but I don't think you need spellcasting, just religion ranks.
beavis123 03-11-04, 02:19 PM	cleric/fighter combo is good. I think you have a good ideas, but what about range combat??
Matt Neuman 03-11-04, 02:49 PM	cleric/fighter is good. cleric/fighter with 10 Wis? Not good.
rilem 03-11-04, 03:07 PM	I'm a little confused — in your other thread you said your party was the Spy guy, mage, AC fighter and Ftr/Cleric/Temp. Which one of those is this Devoted Defender fellow: AC fighter or Cleric fighter? If this is your party cleric, you need to chuck those other levels and get more spellcasting ability. If this is the AC fighter who's just taking dips into Cleric and Templar, that's different. Even then, though, the low Wis and Cha make those dips stick out. I'd consider dropping your Strength or Dex and boost Wis or Cha, even a bit. Then you could go Ftr/Paladin for the better saves and Know(rel) and retain your BAB progression.
jtgalt 03-11-04, 05:06 PM	This is the AC fighter guy. We did the 2level dip into cleric because it would give him +3Fort save, allowing Dragon's Toughness at level 10. The low WIS is compensated for by putting 1pt into it at level 4, allowing the level 1 spells. I can't drop INT or DEX because of feat requirements, but I do see your point there. As we're playing in the regular D&D world, I don't know of any gods that have a favored weapon of battleaxe.
rilem 03-11-04, 05:22 PM	That's a good point, but here are a couple options: 1. Standard 3.0 rules allow for Godless clerics — and the spiritual weapon for chaos is the battle axe. You could be CG and pick domains War and Luck (both pretty chaotic-ish domains, and both with non-level-dependent domain abilities). I don't personally like godless clerics, myself, but you're on good footing, rules-wise. 2. The Nostalgia approach: Heironeous' favored weapon is the longsword, but I think it used to be the battleaxe in 2E. In Living Greyhawk either one is acceptable. You could appeal to your DM's sense of history, if he/she has one. 3. Expanded Deities — this is the weakest one, based on your limitations. I don't think DotF gives lists of other demihuman deities such as Clangeddin Silverbeard (just Dragons, right?), but I might be wrong. You can find detailed info on the Living Greyhawk page at WoTC.
Matt Neuman 03-11-04, 06:03 PM	I don't mean to be unkind, but if all you wanted is a Fort save boost, for access to dragon's toughness go with barbarian or ranger. You'll get a lot more out of it with these stats than you will with cleric. Boosting your Wis at 4th would be a mistake, when you could put that point into Dex (good idea), Con (probable) or Int (not likely) and get a bonus. Odd-numbered stats are sub-par except for feat access. An 11 wis, 8 cha cleric is still not really worth it. I'd say either drop those cleric levels in exchange for something more useful or you should consider re-arranging your stats. You also seem to be missing your 4th level fighter feat, I'm guessing that's supposed to be weapon specialization?
jtgalt 03-11-04, 06:21 PM	Oops - I forgot the 4th level feat. It is NOT weapon spec as that's a freebie from Templar. We talked about ranger and/or barbarian, but ultimately decided against it because thsi char will be in full plate, negating the abilities of both ranger and barbarian(except for track, which would be useless and rage, which isn't that awesome for 2 rounds a day). Paladin is definately out as the code of ethics is pointless. Similarly, Druid's inability to use metal rules them out. Most monk abilities require no armor as well. That's why we settled for cleric. Well, that and the ability to cure light 2x a day.
DeadEye 03-11-04, 11:47 PM	Originally posted by jtgalt Oops - I forgot the 4th level feat. It is NOT weapon spec as that's a freebie from Templar. We talked about ranger and/or barbarian, but ultimately decided against it because thsi char will be in full plate, negating the abilities of both ranger and barbarian(except for track, which would be useless and rage, which isn't that awesome for 2 rounds a day). Okay, for one thing, I think you've gotten the rules for rage wrong. You've got a 15 con, which is +2. Raging makes that 19, for a +4, and you rage for your con mod +3 rounds. That's 7 rounds, not 2. Added to that, adding that ability point into a useful ability (Con) rather than adding a point into Wisdom solely for two weeny cure spells that really won't help you... Barbarian is a far better choice than cleric. More BAB, more hitpoints, more skills, more synergy with your fighter levels even with the loss of abilities due to heavy armour... it's almost a no brainer. Two CLW spells ain't as good as what a barbarian gives you.
jtgalt 03-12-04, 01:43 AM	You do have a point, but keep in mind that the party has no healer beyond another char w/ 3 levels of cleric. Being able to cast 2 CLW and a few Cure Minor Wounds could potentially keep someone alive. The barbarian gets, on average, 2 hp more for 2 levels(4hp total) and the ability to rage, gaining a few more HP but sacrificing the all-important AC. With the goal of Devoted Defender in mind, how can taking Barbarian be justified? Does 4hp on average and 8hp at max over 2 levels beat out being able to spontaneously heal a dying comrade?
Nilaus 03-12-04, 05:11 AM	jtgalt, don't ask for advice if you are not going to take it. You seem to have your mind set on cleric levels even though they are subpar and you are adviced against it. My advice: Forget the Dragon Thoughness feat as a career goal. It is not that awesome. A few levels of cleric aren't going to cut it. You mentioned that someone else in your party had a couple of levels of cleric. That is enough for him to be able to use a wand of cure light wounds. My suggested level progression would be: 1 Ranger or Barbarian 2-5 Fighter 6-9 Devoted Defender 10 Templar You want 3 levels of Devoted Defender to gain access to all this PrCs abilities. Hope it helps!
jtgalt 03-12-04, 02:57 PM	I wasn't arguing against the advice as much as I was trying to explain differring viewpoints to make sure all aspects have been covered. I personally try to attack problems from all sides to ensure that they're adequately covered. In your build I assume you took Barbarian at level 1 for the 2hp and the skillpoints. However, doesnt' illiteracy counteract that? Wouldn't taking fighter at level 1 and then barbarian at level 2 work out better?
rilem 03-12-04, 03:26 PM	A barbarian who multiclasses automatically gains literacy, so that's not a problem. I personally like Nilhaus' idea (get devoted defender as fast as possible) and think Barbarian or Ranger would be your best bet (ranger gives you the ability to use CLW wands). But if you're really into cleric for role-playing, I don't think it's unworkable — as long as you get good domains and beef up your wisdom somehow to at least 12. What feats of yours require 16 STR at first level?
Qaetar 03-13-04, 02:03 AM	If you're looking for CLW, take a level of Ranger and get a wand. 750 GP is cheaper than being a Cleric 1. Also, why not take Weapon Focus Spiked Shield and take Imp. Shield Bash (DotF or S&F, forget which) so you retain the AC. (Qaetar)