Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Szat 02-09-05, 05:51 AM	I'm sure that mostly characters post on these boards but I'm a DM in need. I enjoy DM'ing but am not particularly good at Min/Maxing my BBEG's to face the party. As most of the party has carefully developed their character progression the BBEG fights are usually rather anti-climactic so I need the help of your collective optimization experience. Here's the deal. I need to optimize a Vampiric Wiz 18/Acm 1. I'd like to stick to Core Rules, Complete Arcane, and any of the Forgotten Realms books. Any assistance is much appreciated. As well, magic items are a possibility as I am the DM!!
happycows 02-09-05, 06:00 AM	Specialized wizard? If so what school?
Szat 02-09-05, 06:05 AM	He's not specialized, but he could be.
Xeraph 02-09-05, 06:34 AM	Whats his Abbilty Scores? Or point buy? Whats flavor do you want? Crowd control? Damage? Anoying? Summoner? Killer? Necromancer? Does he have hencemen or is he stand alone BBEG? I would take a search on Dweomer Cheater or Cheater of Mystra, thats one of the most flawless Arcane Caster builds, and it kicks arse seriously! Kill your group, use him. Or search for the Divine Drainer, im pretty sure he can be build so hes Arcane instead of Divine. And he will atke down any non-undead PC hands down. Actually he could take down most Epic mosnters in a round. Or check out the Ridiculous "Uber" Build thread. Thats one mean BBEG for you. :rolleyes:
Aramil Liadon 02-09-05, 06:58 AM	Dweomercheater is a cleric ;) Aramil
Lysiander 02-09-05, 07:21 AM	What does ACM stand for? Well, for starters dont use Wizard 17. Use Wizard 5, Incantantar 10 and 2 in whatever else you need. If you want the familiar, get the obtain familiar feat and you still have 1 metamagic feat bonus from the Inci, plus the abilities over a straigt wizard.
Xeraph 02-09-05, 07:32 AM	Alright, skip Dweaomercheater, :D Casting isnt my strongest side. ACM, I believe, stand for Arch Mage. Still Arcane Drainer would take out any one character with one spell, no save, no SR, in a round. But im not sure... http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=358009&highlight=Divine+Drainer Uhm, or make him a damn Divine caster for the love of killing your PCs!!! :D
PhoenixInferno 02-09-05, 10:11 AM	A great way to improve spellcasters is to learn the spells better. The more you understand the spells and their uses and limitations, the better your spellcaster will be.
PhaedrusXY 02-09-05, 01:53 PM	Non-specialist wiz5/Incantatrix10/ArchmageX. I put X for Archmage because it's not worth taking 5 levels in anymore, really. I'd get the ability that lets you change energy types and the one that lets you shape spells. Make sure to get all the good low level Illusion spells before taking Incantatrix, then make Illusion your prohibited school. And like PhoenixInferno said, the key to playing a powerful caster is learning the spells and knowing how to use them effectively. Also, you need to know your weaknesses and how to cover them. Edit: I'll post links to a couple of examples of how I'd use spellcasters at high levels. Here is one: http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=5391089&postcount=2 And at the end of this post I list buff spells to pre-cast and tactics for a True Necromancer NPC: http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=5381919 With an Incantatrix, you can metamagic the heck out of things. So direct damage spells are a better option, and make sure to Extend/Persist all your buffs. Chain Spell can also be nice if you're buffing lots of allies/minions. Snow Savant's Weak and Weird Spells You can Make Strong is another good thread to check out, and Thermans' A Wizard's Hidden Power is also pretty good if you can find it. (I couldn't... it was in the Spells and Magic forum) You can find Snow's threads and a bunch of other useful ones here: http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=3032125
Baneslayer 02-09-05, 02:21 PM	Truly, you have to do your homework and think Synergy. Build this guy like you would build a PC only without the limitations. It takes a little bit of acting talent, but become your BBEG and shape his lair and his equipment to his specifications. Unlike players, BBEGs get to have the giant moat monsters and fiendish servants and Vopal Bunny animal companions. Spells are carefully chosen and so are armor and weapons. Wands and Staves are great BBEG tools, especially if you put enough charges in them for BBEG to use indiscriminatly but when the PCs get their hands on them there are only a few left. Unlike PCs, BBEG know that they can get their disposable gear replaced quickly, that is why they became BBEGs. And always, always, always, a spell caster BBEG has at least one big melee cohort as a bodyguard that is as decked out as he is. Vamp Wizzy should cohort a Vamp Dragon or young Dracolich. Split the threat in the battle so that the PCs have to fight both at once. That should cause some bowel disfunctions around your table.
ksbsnowowl 02-09-05, 02:39 PM	Non-specialist wiz5/Incantatrix10/ArchmageX. I put X for Archmage because it's not worth taking 5 levels in anymore, really.For a 3.5 Archmage, I would agree. One good class to dip into for a level or two to round out the character is Halruaan Elder from Shining South; pick one metamagic feat that now costs one less spell level (minimum one), and it stacks with the Incantatrix's ability! Quicken Spell at a mere +2 spell levels....sounds good! Maximize at +1 spell level....nice! Anyway, you get the idea.
Galbard 02-09-05, 02:55 PM	Non-specialist wiz5/Incantatrix10/ArchmageX. Make sure to get all the good low level Illusion spells before taking Incantatrix, then make Illusion your prohibited school. That doesn't work anymore in 3.5. The 3.0 incantatrix explicitely stated that you could still use the spells from the opposite school you knew before becoming incantatrix. The 3.5 version does not have this statement and the wording is such that the extra opposite school is no different than a normal opposite school from specialisation.
Jeremymc 02-09-05, 08:52 PM	Ummmm... What's wrong with the plain old Vampire Monk??? 5 attacks per round, drains 2 levels with each attack. Pretty easy. Slap a Cube of Force on him, and he's immune to magic for a while. Hell. Give him an anti-magic field and he'll clean your party's clocks. Frankly, the best BBEG are always summoners. An evil Thaumaturgist is amazing. Contingent evil summoning, evil planar ally... By the time the party wades through one Pit Fiend, you've got 4 more waiting for them. Then a "mass haste", and they're off.
PhaedrusXY 02-09-05, 08:57 PM	From the Vampire entry in the SRD: A vampire can use its energy drain ability once per round.
Funny Slaughter 02-09-05, 09:42 PM	i would not use vampire after all, just not effective as a wizard. as BBEG lich is not bad if you want to give that undead-feeling. and some draco-liches as bodyguards are never wrong. better scale the encounter a bit with some strong melee-forces, a caster does best work from the background instead of flying around with all gunports open. important is not the build, a plain wizard will do it, important are the spells and, over all, your tactics. cheaper metamagic or other goodies come in handy but dont do any good if you dont know how to play a wizard. your players should find some wizard (lvl 1x) and think he is the target. the minions around. and your BBEG now casts his spells while his minion wizard trys to save his life. and everybody is expecting the magic coming from your distraction. etc pp. if i was you i would go to the "whats a DM to do"-board and ask for assistance with your tactics. the build is trivial... gs Funny
Jeremymc 02-09-05, 11:05 PM	Aah true nuff about energy drain. And I wish people would stop quoting the SRD. It's notoriously incomplete and retarded about a LOT of things, and isn't actually recognized as a legitimate source. Not by me at least. Quote the PhB, MM or DMG, if you're going to quote anything. But in that case, give your vampire monk levels of a class called "Soulstealer" or something from the one of the old splatbooks. It was either in the Book of VD (Venereal Disease???). Or one of the old "Evil" "Undead", I think they were AeG books? Man. Splatbooks. Anyhow - the class gave you the ability to energy drain with each attack. Alternately, make a vampire with paired swords of "lifedrinking". That ability that bestows a negative level on victim and wielder with each hit...
PhaedrusXY 02-09-05, 11:39 PM	I wish people would stop quoting the SRD. It's notoriously incomplete and retarded about a LOT of things, and isn't actually recognized as a legitimate source. Not by me at least. Quote the PhB, MM or DMG, if you're going to quote anything.The info in the SRD is the same as the info in the core books, except the SRD doesn't have all the "fluff". I find it to be more organized than the books in general, and easier to actually find things in when I want to look something up. Also, I am also not at home alot, and so I often don't have access to books when posting. Sorry if quoting offends you, but it's usually alot quicker to just quote the appropriate rule instead of telling someone they're wrong about something. If you tell them they're wrong, they'll want to argue about it and usually won't actually listen to you until you go look up the rule and quote it to them, anyway. So I like to just skip all the ******** and just cut to the chase and quote the rules.
Jeremymc 02-10-05, 12:53 AM	Well, true. It IS a decent resource. But it's very limited. It only has small glossary entries about each thing, and occasionally the text of the SRD doesn't match up (or is lacking additional explanation in) with the actual core books. It doesn't really offend me, even if I gave that impression. I use the SRD myself, on occasion. Question: Since a Vampire's Con drain power works with a grappled bite, what if the Vampire were a MasTran or MMF, using either Polymorph Any Object, or Shapechange (provided the DM allows this, which he should, as the Vampire already has one shapeshifting power) to transform into a creature with more than one head.... Let's say he was a hydra. Couldn't he grapple and then get 12 Con draining bite attacks on a single victim?
SigmaJargon 02-10-05, 01:08 AM	No. If you'll notice, the Blood Drain actually isn't a bite attack - you use a grapple check to drain blood. So, if you can somehow manage to make more grapple checks during your round, you can drain more blood, independent of the number of mouths or bite attacks you happen to have at any given moment.
PhaedrusXY 02-10-05, 01:30 AM	No. If you'll notice, the Blood Drain actually isn't a bite attack - you use a grapple check to drain blood. So, if you can somehow manage to make more grapple checks during your round, you can drain more blood, independent of the number of mouths or bite attacks you happen to have at any given moment.Well... mechanically it's treated as a grapple. I wouldn't go so far as to say it's not a bite attack... And you can make multiple grapple checks in a round. Grapple checks substitute for normal melee attacks. So you can make as many grapple checks in a round as you can make melee attacks. So yeah, I'd say if you were a vampiric hydra you could make a con draining bite/grapple with each head. However, if you were a vampire polymorphed into a hydra, you'd lose all your normal special attacks, including blood drain. You'd also no longer technically be undead... I like that vampiric hydra idea though. I might have to use one of those in a game... :devil: :ayyyy!:
Jeremymc 02-10-05, 01:30 AM	Mwahaha.. I guess they put that in just to bust up munchkins like me. AAh well, no more "gibbering mouther" Vampires... :)
Jeremymc 02-10-05, 01:36 AM	Well... mechanically it's treated as a grapple. I wouldn't go so far as to say it's not a bite attack... And you can make multiple grapple checks in a round. Grapple checks substitute for normal melee attacks. So you can make as many grapple checks in a round as you can make melee attacks. So yeah, I'd say if you were a vampiric hydra you could make a con draining bite/grapple with each head. However, if you were a vampire polymorphed into a hydra, you'd lose all your normal special attacks, including blood drain. You'd also no longer technically be undead... Well, you'd think so. Except that a) the Vampire already has a shapechanging ability that should technically be illegal, as he's an undead creature. BUT, it still works. b) polymorph also containes words like "the new form may be of the same type as the subject...". Which I interpret as meaning that the spell can't fundamentally change your form (i.e. from elemental to animal, or from undead to humanoid). And polymorph any object works on objects as well as creatures and can be used to duplicate "polymorph". It would be very silly indeed if the vampire were to use his alter form ability to become a living, breathing bat, and then die again when he reverted to human form... Though it would be hilarious, and would explain why they're so angry all of the time. hmmm....
PhaedrusXY 02-10-05, 01:48 AM	It's debateable how it should work. I interpret it as actually turning them into the creature they polymorph into. 3.5 Polymorph changes your type. He wouldn't "die" when he reverted to his natural form, he'd just become an undead again. Unless you meant if he was killed as a bat, and reverted after "death". In that case, I'd say he'd revert to his normal form, and then immediately turn into his gaseous state because his hit points had been reduced to zero. I also think the interpretation of polymorphed undead turning into actual living creatures explains the existence of the Lich Loved feat ( :D ), and requires less interpretation of the rules.
Ander00 02-10-05, 05:06 AM	polymorph also containes words like "the new form may be of the same type as the subject...". Which I interpret as meaning that the spell can't fundamentally change your form...Whoa! That is a pretty wild interpretation. What it says is: The new form may be of the same type as the subject or any of the following types: aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, or vermin.I don't see how you can read that to mean you are limited to creatures of your own type, really. cheers
Jeremymc 02-10-05, 10:31 AM	Well, precisely for the reason that an elemental, construct or undead trying to magically change its shape would suddenly either: a) not change shape at all. b) change shape from something made of pure stone or dead flesh to something with squishy internal organs and back again. Both of which are sort of silly. A less so than B. A is feasible, but it seems to limit the game so much, and besides... the Vampire already does this. He already polymorphs himself, and there has to be some method for that to work.
Lysiander 02-10-05, 11:23 AM	Well, I wouldn't try to comprehend rules based on a vampire's ability. Vampires are pretty much the only monster that has 99% fixed abilities based on a couple of hundred years of legend and a couple of million pages of literature, novels and other stories defining their abilities. You might try to substract game mechanics from a purely D&D monster like planar constructs of whatever, but vampires are so clearly defined and established, they just do what they do. Don't look for mechanical reason when backround was the deciding factor for an ability.
mean_liar 02-10-05, 11:40 AM	if i was you i would go to the "whats a DM to do"-board and ask for assistance with your tactics. the build is trivial... Worth repeating. The build isn't nearly as important as intelligent spell choice, clever use of terrain (traps, walls, and alarms, especially combining to weaken the party and give time to execute pre-battle buffs), effective pre-combat reconnaissance (divinations to determine PC weaknesses), proper use of low-CR/high-melee-capability minions (elementals are good for this), and appropriate spell use during the encounter.
Lilt 02-10-05, 11:52 AM	Vampires in D&D are a kindof special case as it is. IIRC They're the only undead creatures that aren't destroyed when they reach 0HP (instead turning into their gaseous forms and attempting to escape). The vampire's abilities are perfectly legal by the rules, and thankfully I think they interact with other rules in a sensible manner. So they gain the animal type. This may cause some conceptual problems as losing the undead type could theoretically mean they lose the 'healed by negative energy, harmed by positive energy' thing. Thankfully that is a special quality, and really not one inherrent to the form of any creature, thus the vampire retains virtually all of his undead qualities even though he otherwise has many of the abilities of a bat.
sgc8647 02-10-05, 12:45 PM	here is my take for your BBEG: Sorc 5 / Frost Mage 4 / elemental savant cold 1 / Wild Mage 1 / Fatespinner 4 / ARCH 2 wach your player go: what you mean my energy damage reduction is no good?... or can't beleive i roled a 17 on my fort save and barely made the dc, What what do you mean i have to reroll it??? or Wiz 5/ DivO 2 / Wild mage 1 / Initiate of 7 veils 10 / XXX2 as your tanks are rushing against this guy use your immidiate action to raise you shields :) Gregoire
PhaedrusXY 02-10-05, 01:31 PM	Thankfully that is a special quality, and really not one inherrent to the form of any creature, thus the vampire retains virtually all of his undead qualities even though he otherwise has many of the abilities of a bat.No, he doesn't. We've somewhat derailed this topic. In the interest of trying to clear things up, I've compiled a list of the pertinent rules on the subject. If we want to debate them further, we should probably create a thread dedicated to it in the Spells and Magic or Monsters forum. If you look under Polymorph it says: Polymorph: This spell functions like alter self <snip> The subject’s creature type and subtype (if any) change to match the new form. <snip> It also gains all extraordinary special attacks possessed by the form but does not gain the extraordinary special qualities possessed by the new form or any supernatural or spell-like abilities.So, the creature's type changes, and it tells us what types of abilities that the creature gains from its new form, but Polymorph itself says nothing about what abilities they lose from their original form, except for the fact that their type changes. Alter Self says: AlterSelf: You retain all supernatural and spell-like special attacks and qualities of your normal form, except for those requiring a body part that the new form does not have (such as a mouth for a breath weapon or eyes for a gaze attack). You keep all extraordinary special attacks and qualities derived from class levels, but you lose any from your normal form that are not derived from class levels.So, the creature will keep all racial and class-based supernatural and spell-like abilities, and class-based extraordinary special attacks and qualities. It will lose any extraordinary special attacks and qualities based on it's original form. Vampires have the following racial special abilities: Blood Drain (Ex): Children of the Night (Su): Dominate (Su): Create Spawn (Su): Energy Drain (Su): Alternate Form (Su): Damage Reduction (Su): Fast Healing (Ex): Gaseous Form (Su): Resistances (Ex): Spider Climb (Ex): Turn Resistance (Ex):They keep all the ones that are Supernatural (Su), but lose the ones that are Extraordinary (Ex). They are also originally of the Undead type. Undead have the following special abilities: —No Constitution score. —Darkvision out to 60 feet. —Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects). —Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, and death effects. —Not subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability drain, or energy drain. Immune to damage to its physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution), as well as to fatigue and exhaustion effects. —Cannot heal damage on its own if it has no Intelligence score, although it can be healed. Negative energy (such as an inflict spell) can heal undead creatures. The fast healing special quality works regardless of the creature’s Intelligence score. —Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless). —Uses its Charisma modifier for Concentration checks. —Not at risk of death from massive damage, but when reduced to 0 hit points or less, it is immediately destroyed. —Not affected by raise dead and reincarnate spells or abilities. Resurrection and true resurrection can affect undead creatures. These spells turn undead creatures back into the living creatures they were before becoming undead. —Proficient with its natural weapons, all simple weapons, and any weapons mentioned in its entry. —Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Undead not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Undead are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor. —Undead do not breathe, eat, or sleep.None of these specify if they are Supernatural or Extraordinary here. However, most of them look like they'd be Extraordinary to me, and so they'd be lost. If you doubt that they're extraordinary, ask yourself whether they'd be affected by an Anti-Magic field. If yes, the vampire keeps them when he Polymorphs. If no, he loses them.
Jeremymc 02-10-05, 01:44 PM	Edit: I suppose Skip's articles are a fair assessment. I can abide by them. Very well, looks like Alter Form is it's own supernatural ability, and doesn't change the form of the bat. And you CAN use PoA to assume undead and construct forms. Just not polymorph itself. Which is a little bit lame, but I guess I can live with it. But there's still no ruling on what happens when an already undead person polymorphs.... hmm... I'll read the article again, but I don't see it.