Additive Crit Range [Archive] - Wizards Community

Additive Crit Range [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
AlienFromBeyond
02-18-05, 01:30 PM In 3.0, one used to be able to stack crit range multipliers, getting huge amounts of crits with weapons like the rapier. Now you can't do that anymore in 3.5. A few abilities though have been changed to affect crit range as an added number, instead of a multiplier. For instance, the Psychic Weapon Master (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040827d) now adds +2 to the crit range. I think it would be safe to assume the same thing for the normal Weapon Master, as well as the Disciple of Disapater (though logically it would get +4 to crit range at the second level of it's crit range power, though I don't remember the name right now). I was wondering if there were anymore classes in 3.0 that used to do this and have already been updated, or could be updated, or any original 3.5 classes that do this. I'm looking into this because of Roundabout Kick and Lightning Mace Mastery. I have an evil idea of a Warforged taking both of these and using Morphing to turn his fists into maces. Or use the Graft Weapon power.

Also, I finally got Underdark, and I saw the Flurry Blade. 19-20/x3 crit range!?
AlienFromBeyond
02-18-05, 06:25 PM Does no one have anything to say about this topic?
PhaedrusXY
02-18-05, 06:27 PM Has the "normal" weapon master been updated anywhere to 3.5? It added a +2 to the crit range, also, didn't it?
Xperiment
02-18-05, 06:34 PM Crit ranges are not totally destroyed, but they are harder to make... Fighter 12/Disciple of Dispator 8 will allow 4*to crit range making a Greatsword have 13-20 crit range or a Rapier to have a 9-20 crit range.
Tempest Stormwind
02-18-05, 06:38 PM Has the "normal" weapon master been updated anywhere to 3.5? It added a +2 to the crit range, also, didn't it?

Sadly, according to the offical reference of updated material (check the main D&D site archives; I can't remember which article set it's under. It came out right after Complete Adventurer did), the Weapon Master is now CW's Exotic Weapon Master.

It was one of many, many collapsed PrCs. The one that fell furthest was the Ninja of the Crescent Moon, which became Complete Adventurer's ninja. Two other prestige classes were rolled into the new EWM alongside the Weapon Master -- namely, the Master of Chains and the (obvious) Exotic Weapon Master.

You DO have a chance, though. Oriental Adventures had an EXACT reprint of the 3.0 Weapon Master called the Kensai (not to be confused with the Kensai PrC in Complete Warrior). Dragon 318, which I don't have access to, did an official update of all OA material. Maybe the OA Kensai (Weapon Master) was updated there?

By the way, on a semirelated note, I hear tell of a Maiming enhancement in some book or other that modifies the critical hit multiplier. Can anyone help me find this?
saucercrab
02-18-05, 07:04 PM By the way, on a semirelated note, I hear tell of a Maiming enhancement in some book or other that modifies the critical hit multiplier. Can anyone help me find this?IIRC, it's in the Mini' Handbook. Changes x2 mult. to x1d4, x3 to x1d6, & x4 to x1d8. Costs as a +1 weapon ability.
AlienFromBeyond
02-18-05, 11:57 PM Crit ranges are not totally destroyed, but they are harder to make... Fighter 12/Disciple of Dispator 8 will allow 4*to crit range making a Greatsword have 13-20 crit range or a Rapier to have a 9-20 crit range.
But this is using 3.0 material, and then crit range multipliers stacked. To get a 13-20 crit range, you would need Iron Hews (I think that's the ability) and another ability that improves crit range, like Imp. Crit. The thing is, that wouldn't stack anymore in 3.5 :(.

And the Exotic Weapon Master is considered to be the remake of the Weapon Master!? That's utter BS. Good catch on the Kensai bit, could anyone lend a hand in that regard to Dragon 318?
PhaedrusXY
02-19-05, 12:12 AM You DO have a chance, though. Oriental Adventures had an EXACT reprint of the 3.0 Weapon Master called the Kensai (not to be confused with the Kensai PrC in Complete Warrior). Dragon 318, which I don't have access to, did an official update of all OA material. Maybe the OA Kensai (Weapon Master) was updated there?Yeah, I have OA and pretty much everything in there was updated in Dragon 318. But not everyone uses it, and I thought maybe they redid it in Complete Warrior. I don't own any of the Complete books.

I hardly ever get to play D&D anymore, and when I do I usually DM. So I hardly ever buy any books anymore, as it is mostly a waste of money for me. I still enjoy puttering around in here, and playing every few months when I take a few days off from school over holidays and stuff. And the CO board is the best place to see what is new, and what can be done with it. ;)
AlienFromBeyond
02-20-05, 12:31 PM They did make a Prc called Kensai in Complete Warrior, but it is different than the one from OA. Any info on what the Dragon issue said about the Kensai in OA?

Also, does know if a Warforged using Morphing to change his fists into maces or someone using Graft Weapon on some maces works in conjunction to using both Lightning Mace Mastery and Roundabout Kick?
Tempest Stormwind
02-20-05, 12:55 PM They did make a Prc called Kensai in Complete Warrior, but it is different than the one from OA. Any info on what the Dragon issue said about the Kensai in OA?

Also, does know if a Warforged using Morphing to change his fists into maces or someone using Graft Weapon on some maces works in conjunction to using both Lightning Mace Mastery and Roundabout Kick?

I just got a hold on 318. It doesn't mention the Kensai, and calls out that "as much as possible, the rules in Oriental Adventures have been left unchanged." To me, I guess that this means the class is fine as-is.

I don't think natural weapons can change into manufactured weapons and count as unarmed strikes. There's something missing there.
AlienFromBeyond
02-20-05, 02:01 PM I don't think natural weapons can change into manufactured weapons and count as unarmed strikes. There's something missing there.
Yeah, probably. I was just if it was possible ;). Would be quite awesome if you could get it to work.
Polygon
02-20-05, 03:19 PM I have no idea what difference this makes in the actual Japanese (I doubt it makes ANY), but in OA the weapon master class is spelled KensEi, while the weapon-enchanter in CW is spelled KensAi. By the logic that these are English-language books for an English-language game, that defines them as different classes rather than a remake. I think the OA one was supposed to be Kenshi, literally, "master of weaponry", but as I said, I know squat about Japanese and its convoluted grammar.

While we're talking about this, has Circle Kick from Sword & Fist been reprinted in any 3.5 books?
Tempest Stormwind
02-20-05, 03:35 PM I have no idea what difference this makes in the actual Japanese (I doubt it makes ANY), but in OA the weapon master class is spelled KensEi, while the weapon-enchanter in CW is spelled KensAi. By the logic that these are English-language books for an English-language game, that defines them as different classes rather than a remake. I think the OA one was supposed to be Kenshi, literally, "master of weaponry", but as I said, I know squat about Japanese and its convoluted grammar.

While we're talking about this, has Circle Kick from Sword & Fist been reprinted in any 3.5 books?

I hadn't noticed the spelling change, but that's a good catch. As to "kenshi," I'll ask my brother; he's a Japanophile and at least marginally fluent in the language.

Circle Kick was revised and updated as Roundabout Kick in Complete Warrior.

Since the very useful PDF seems to be absent from the Wizards website, I've decided to make it available for everyone myself (http://www.telusplanet.net/~sdupuis/Tempest/Reference%20of%20Updated%20Material.pdf) . I just spent a long time searching for it on the wizards website (I downloaded it on January 11), but it seems to be buried somewhere I can't find.
Caelic
02-20-05, 03:40 PM Roundabout Kick requires that you be using an unarmed strike. Grafted weapons are not unarmed strikes, but natural weapons. There is a difference between the two (which is why the monk class specifies that his unarmed strike is treated as both.)
AlienFromBeyond
02-20-05, 06:12 PM I just read the text for the new Graft Weapon, and you're right. With the 3.0 version it would have worked. Since you brought up monk, would a monk with such a weapon grafted the effect of both feats? And you didn't mention whether changing ones fists (through, say, a Necklace of Natural Attacks with Morphing on them) would work.
Polygon
02-20-05, 07:57 PM Unarmed strikes and natural weapon strikes work interchangeably for feats and abilities; the only thing they don't work this way with are their damage/crit values. A half-dragon qualifies as having the Improved Unarmed Strike feat wit da claws, for example.

The 3.5 Monk does NOT specify that it's unarmed attacks are both unarmed strikes and natural weapon strikes (as I explained, that's a "same difference" statement); it specifies them as counting as both natural weapons and MANUFACTURED weapons.
AlienFromBeyond
02-20-05, 09:06 PM Unarmed strikes and natural weapon strikes work interchangeably for feats and abilities; the only thing they don't work this way with are their damage/crit values.
Really? Excellent...
AlienFromBeyond
02-21-05, 12:28 PM Polygon, could you find some rules text to back you up? To quell those who would say otherwise. Evidence is always a good thing ;).
Xperiment
02-21-05, 04:50 PM But this is using 3.0 material, and then crit range multipliers stacked. To get a 13-20 crit range, you would need Iron Hews (I think that's the ability) and another ability that improves crit range, like Imp. Crit. The thing is, that wouldn't stack anymore in 3.5 :(.

And the Exotic Weapon Master is considered to be the remake of the Weapon Master!? That's utter BS. Good catch on the Kensai bit, could anyone lend a hand in that regard to Dragon 318?

In iron power it states that it DOES stack with improved critical... not keen, though.
AlienFromBeyond
02-21-05, 06:52 PM Yeah, but it was for 3.0 *shrug*. I want to use it with Lightning Mace Mastery, and I would actually benefit more from Iron Power going to a + than a x, because light maces have a crit range of 20... I suppose I could come up with an exotic weapon that is treated like light maces, like the variant exotic weapons in Complete Adventurer (broadblade short sword for example).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
AlienFromBeyond 02-18-05, 01:30 PM	In 3.0, one used to be able to stack crit range multipliers, getting huge amounts of crits with weapons like the rapier. Now you can't do that anymore in 3.5. A few abilities though have been changed to affect crit range as an added number, instead of a multiplier. For instance, the Psychic Weapon Master (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040827d) now adds +2 to the crit range. I think it would be safe to assume the same thing for the normal Weapon Master, as well as the Disciple of Disapater (though logically it would get +4 to crit range at the second level of it's crit range power, though I don't remember the name right now). I was wondering if there were anymore classes in 3.0 that used to do this and have already been updated, or could be updated, or any original 3.5 classes that do this. I'm looking into this because of Roundabout Kick and Lightning Mace Mastery. I have an evil idea of a Warforged taking both of these and using Morphing to turn his fists into maces. Or use the Graft Weapon power. Also, I finally got Underdark, and I saw the Flurry Blade. 19-20/x3 crit range!?
AlienFromBeyond 02-18-05, 06:25 PM	Does no one have anything to say about this topic?
PhaedrusXY 02-18-05, 06:27 PM	Has the "normal" weapon master been updated anywhere to 3.5? It added a +2 to the crit range, also, didn't it?
Xperiment 02-18-05, 06:34 PM	Crit ranges are not totally destroyed, but they are harder to make... Fighter 12/Disciple of Dispator 8 will allow 4*to crit range making a Greatsword have 13-20 crit range or a Rapier to have a 9-20 crit range.
Tempest Stormwind 02-18-05, 06:38 PM	Has the "normal" weapon master been updated anywhere to 3.5? It added a +2 to the crit range, also, didn't it? Sadly, according to the offical reference of updated material (check the main D&D site archives; I can't remember which article set it's under. It came out right after Complete Adventurer did), the Weapon Master is now CW's Exotic Weapon Master. It was one of many, many collapsed PrCs. The one that fell furthest was the Ninja of the Crescent Moon, which became Complete Adventurer's ninja. Two other prestige classes were rolled into the new EWM alongside the Weapon Master -- namely, the Master of Chains and the (obvious) Exotic Weapon Master. You DO have a chance, though. Oriental Adventures had an EXACT reprint of the 3.0 Weapon Master called the Kensai (not to be confused with the Kensai PrC in Complete Warrior). Dragon 318, which I don't have access to, did an official update of all OA material. Maybe the OA Kensai (Weapon Master) was updated there? By the way, on a semirelated note, I hear tell of a Maiming enhancement in some book or other that modifies the critical hit multiplier. Can anyone help me find this?
saucercrab 02-18-05, 07:04 PM	By the way, on a semirelated note, I hear tell of a Maiming enhancement in some book or other that modifies the critical hit multiplier. Can anyone help me find this?IIRC, it's in the Mini' Handbook. Changes x2 mult. to x1d4, x3 to x1d6, & x4 to x1d8. Costs as a +1 weapon ability.
AlienFromBeyond 02-18-05, 11:57 PM	Crit ranges are not totally destroyed, but they are harder to make... Fighter 12/Disciple of Dispator 8 will allow 4*to crit range making a Greatsword have 13-20 crit range or a Rapier to have a 9-20 crit range. But this is using 3.0 material, and then crit range multipliers stacked. To get a 13-20 crit range, you would need Iron Hews (I think that's the ability) and another ability that improves crit range, like Imp. Crit. The thing is, that wouldn't stack anymore in 3.5 :(. And the Exotic Weapon Master is considered to be the remake of the Weapon Master!? That's utter BS. Good catch on the Kensai bit, could anyone lend a hand in that regard to Dragon 318?
PhaedrusXY 02-19-05, 12:12 AM	You DO have a chance, though. Oriental Adventures had an EXACT reprint of the 3.0 Weapon Master called the Kensai (not to be confused with the Kensai PrC in Complete Warrior). Dragon 318, which I don't have access to, did an official update of all OA material. Maybe the OA Kensai (Weapon Master) was updated there?Yeah, I have OA and pretty much everything in there was updated in Dragon 318. But not everyone uses it, and I thought maybe they redid it in Complete Warrior. I don't own any of the Complete books. I hardly ever get to play D&D anymore, and when I do I usually DM. So I hardly ever buy any books anymore, as it is mostly a waste of money for me. I still enjoy puttering around in here, and playing every few months when I take a few days off from school over holidays and stuff. And the CO board is the best place to see what is new, and what can be done with it. ;)
AlienFromBeyond 02-20-05, 12:31 PM	They did make a Prc called Kensai in Complete Warrior, but it is different than the one from OA. Any info on what the Dragon issue said about the Kensai in OA? Also, does know if a Warforged using Morphing to change his fists into maces or someone using Graft Weapon on some maces works in conjunction to using both Lightning Mace Mastery and Roundabout Kick?
Tempest Stormwind 02-20-05, 12:55 PM	They did make a Prc called Kensai in Complete Warrior, but it is different than the one from OA. Any info on what the Dragon issue said about the Kensai in OA? Also, does know if a Warforged using Morphing to change his fists into maces or someone using Graft Weapon on some maces works in conjunction to using both Lightning Mace Mastery and Roundabout Kick? I just got a hold on 318. It doesn't mention the Kensai, and calls out that "as much as possible, the rules in Oriental Adventures have been left unchanged." To me, I guess that this means the class is fine as-is. I don't think natural weapons can change into manufactured weapons and count as unarmed strikes. There's something missing there.
AlienFromBeyond 02-20-05, 02:01 PM	I don't think natural weapons can change into manufactured weapons and count as unarmed strikes. There's something missing there. Yeah, probably. I was just if it was possible ;). Would be quite awesome if you could get it to work.
Polygon 02-20-05, 03:19 PM	I have no idea what difference this makes in the actual Japanese (I doubt it makes ANY), but in OA the weapon master class is spelled KensEi, while the weapon-enchanter in CW is spelled KensAi. By the logic that these are English-language books for an English-language game, that defines them as different classes rather than a remake. I think the OA one was supposed to be Kenshi, literally, "master of weaponry", but as I said, I know squat about Japanese and its convoluted grammar. While we're talking about this, has Circle Kick from Sword & Fist been reprinted in any 3.5 books?
Tempest Stormwind 02-20-05, 03:35 PM	I have no idea what difference this makes in the actual Japanese (I doubt it makes ANY), but in OA the weapon master class is spelled KensEi, while the weapon-enchanter in CW is spelled KensAi. By the logic that these are English-language books for an English-language game, that defines them as different classes rather than a remake. I think the OA one was supposed to be Kenshi, literally, "master of weaponry", but as I said, I know squat about Japanese and its convoluted grammar. While we're talking about this, has Circle Kick from Sword & Fist been reprinted in any 3.5 books? I hadn't noticed the spelling change, but that's a good catch. As to "kenshi," I'll ask my brother; he's a Japanophile and at least marginally fluent in the language. Circle Kick was revised and updated as Roundabout Kick in Complete Warrior. Since the very useful PDF seems to be absent from the Wizards website, I've decided to make it available for everyone myself (http://www.telusplanet.net/~sdupuis/Tempest/Reference%20of%20Updated%20Material.pdf) . I just spent a long time searching for it on the wizards website (I downloaded it on January 11), but it seems to be buried somewhere I can't find.
Caelic 02-20-05, 03:40 PM	Roundabout Kick requires that you be using an unarmed strike. Grafted weapons are not unarmed strikes, but natural weapons. There is a difference between the two (which is why the monk class specifies that his unarmed strike is treated as both.)
AlienFromBeyond 02-20-05, 06:12 PM	I just read the text for the new Graft Weapon, and you're right. With the 3.0 version it would have worked. Since you brought up monk, would a monk with such a weapon grafted the effect of both feats? And you didn't mention whether changing ones fists (through, say, a Necklace of Natural Attacks with Morphing on them) would work.
Polygon 02-20-05, 07:57 PM	Unarmed strikes and natural weapon strikes work interchangeably for feats and abilities; the only thing they don't work this way with are their damage/crit values. A half-dragon qualifies as having the Improved Unarmed Strike feat wit da claws, for example. The 3.5 Monk does NOT specify that it's unarmed attacks are both unarmed strikes and natural weapon strikes (as I explained, that's a "same difference" statement); it specifies them as counting as both natural weapons and MANUFACTURED weapons.
AlienFromBeyond 02-20-05, 09:06 PM	Unarmed strikes and natural weapon strikes work interchangeably for feats and abilities; the only thing they don't work this way with are their damage/crit values. Really? Excellent...
AlienFromBeyond 02-21-05, 12:28 PM	Polygon, could you find some rules text to back you up? To quell those who would say otherwise. Evidence is always a good thing ;).
Xperiment 02-21-05, 04:50 PM	But this is using 3.0 material, and then crit range multipliers stacked. To get a 13-20 crit range, you would need Iron Hews (I think that's the ability) and another ability that improves crit range, like Imp. Crit. The thing is, that wouldn't stack anymore in 3.5 :(. And the Exotic Weapon Master is considered to be the remake of the Weapon Master!? That's utter BS. Good catch on the Kensai bit, could anyone lend a hand in that regard to Dragon 318? In iron power it states that it DOES stack with improved critical... not keen, though.
AlienFromBeyond 02-21-05, 06:52 PM	Yeah, but it was for 3.0 shrug. I want to use it with Lightning Mace Mastery, and I would actually benefit more from Iron Power going to a + than a x, because light maces have a crit range of 20... I suppose I could come up with an exotic weapon that is treated like light maces, like the variant exotic weapons in Complete Adventurer (broadblade short sword for example).