ADIB, the Eberron charger [Archive] - Wizards Community

ADIB, the Eberron charger [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Pinky's brain
04-01-06, 04:23 PM After getting smacked down as a soul eater by the Sage ADIB decided to have some levels drained and regained, reform his psyche and change his race.

In contrast to the normal charger builds I endeavour to use no 3.0 books without a 3.5 update, no cross setting stuff (with one exception even I could not resist) and no houserules or anything which requires explicit DM approval except for source selection. This removes the use custom magic items and multi-pouncing. The only things I purposely ignore are loops and the potential for additional damage from animated/dominated/controlled/summoned/constructed/recruited/whatever creatures.

Parts of the builds are left to figure out as an excercise for the reader to save on typing.

Tricks used which might be of interest :
- Elvencraft bow (RotW) used as melee weapon together with Hunter's Mercy.
- Cavalier's (CW) deadly charge used with Leap Attack (CAdv) using Centaur form (from Gideon's UberEr(er)Charger).
- Spare hands belt (MoE) used so you can wield an extra Valenar double scimitars (ECS) to get more out of the Revenant Blade (PGtE).
- Shapechange abuse with Chronotyryn (FF).
- Item Alteration (ECS) abuse for large gain in strength

Elf
1. Artificer 1, Bladebearer of the Valenar
2. Fighter 1, Weapon Focus (Valenar double scimitar)
3. Artificer 2, Power Attack
4. Fighter 2, Leap Attack
5. Artificer 3
6. Fighter 3, Mounted Combat
7. Artificer 4, Quicken Spell
8. Fighter 4, Ride-By Attack
9. Artificer 5, Spirited Charge
10. Fighter 5
11. Artificer 6
12. Fighter 6, Weapon Focus (lance), MWF
13. Revenant Blade 1
14. Revenant Blade 2
15. Revenant Blade 3, IMWF
16. Revenant Blade 4
17. Revenant Blade 5
18. Exotic Weapons Master 1, Exotic Flurry, GMWF
19. Cavalier 1
20. Cavalier 2

Important items :
+1 huge bow, Elvencraft, Collision
3x +1/+1 large Valenar double scimitars, Collision
Spare hands belt
Glove of Storing

Important spells/powers :
Psychofeedback (ML 20)
Extended Psionic Lion's Charge (ML 20)
Offensive Prescience (ML 19)
Giant Size (CL 19)
Hunter's Mercy
Mighty Wallop
Rhino's Rush
Divine Power
Divine Favor (CL 9)
Shapechange (Chronotyryn)
Polymorph (Centaur)
Bite of the Werebear
Girallon's Blessing
Fuse Arms
Arms of Plenty
Scorpion Tail
Greater Visage of the Deity
Bull's Strength (infusion)
Item Alteration
Haste
Brambles (CL 10)
Greater Magic Fang
Dominate monster
Mind switch

Gained by a combination of powerstones, scrolls, spellstoring rings, contingent spells, minor schemas etc etc (necessary UPD skills gained from combinations of skill enhancement & divine insight). Weapons are boosted to +5 by GWM, and baned for the enemy by weapon augmentation personal.

The centaur body is assumed by having a pet dominated centaur, you first shapechange into a Chronotyryn and then mind switch with the centaur.

Strength :
18 base, Centaur
+32 size, Giant Size
+16 enhancement, Bite of the Werebear
+20 unnamed, Psychofeedback
+4 unnamed, Greater Visage of the Deity
+20 insight/luck/morale/profane/sacred, Bull's Strength (infusion) and Item Alteration
= 110

Bonuses to Damage :
+5 unnamed, Collision
+3 luck, Divine Favor
+17 circumstance, Psionic Lion's Charge
+8 insight, Offensive Prescience
= 33

with bow :
+10 enhancement, Brambles
+80 unnamed, Power attack + Leap Attack
= 123

with scimitars :
+7 enhancement, GWM and weapon augmentation personal(bane)
+1 Bladebearer of the Valenar
+2 Weapon Specialization
+80 unnamed, Power attack + Leap Attack
= 123

with arms of plenty, scorpion tail and hooves :
+1 enhancement, Greater Magic Fang
+40 unnamed, Power attack + Leap Attack
= 74

Multiplier :
3 deadly charge
with bow only :
1 critical (hunter's mercy)
1 Rhino's rush

Damage :
bow attack :
5 x (8d6 + 123 + 75) + 2d6 = 1137
scimitar attacks :
41 x (3 x (4d6 + 123 + 75) + 2d6) = 26363
arms of plenty, including rend, scorpion's tail and hooves
2 x (2 x (4d6 + 74 + 50) + (8d6 + 75) + (2d6 + 74 + 50) + 2 x (3d6 + 74 + 25)) = 1458

Total damage assuming no crits and all hits 28958.

Most questionable parts about the build AFAICS :
- Uses centaur + spirited charge rule only found in RoF, and extrapolates it to also working with deadly charge.
- Uses two double-weapons with spare hands (assuming that since one end counts as light they can help you wield them) using rules only found with the Thri-Kreen description.
- Uses the elvencraft bow as a melee weapon with hunter's mercy.
- After using the elvencraft bow as a two-handed weapon one time he drops it and switches to scimitar (from glove of storage) with a multiweapon fighting routine ... the FAQ allows switching weapon inside your attack routine, but the switch from two handed to double weapon is pushing it.
- Uses deadly charge on all attacks after the charge, including the ones from the second round granted by Shapechange (Chronotyryn). Although if necessary you could probably find a way to fit hustle in there with delay power so you could charge for real the second time.
- Leap attack is assumed to work the same as supreme power attack from FB, since they both say they add +100% to the damage and supreme power attack has an example which explicitly says that means you get a 1 to 4 ratio.

Room for extra damage :
- Didn't use damage from extra dice (bursts etc)
- Didn't count smite attack from Greater Visage of the Deity.
- Might be able to get more natural attacks and or limbs for Fuse Arms.
- Probably lots of other spells which give bonuses to damage I forgot.
- Use off hand speed weapons (disallowed in the 3.0 FAQ, but never in 3.5).
- Use mind switch or magic jar with an advanced/templated centaur.
- Craft contingent spell with rhino's rush can add some extra damage too, won't work with hunter's mercy unfortunately (ie. the first goes off when you charge, the second after your first attack on charge, the third after the second etc).
Kessalin Talira
04-01-06, 06:28 PM What are you casting Brambles on? The only wooden weapon you have listed is your bow, and brambles specifically doesn't work on it. It'd take a DM ruling to allow, I think. Even if it does work, is it really worth it? Considering that there's no way to use it on your double scimitars unless they're wood, too, I don't know that it is.

The wording on brambles is rather questionable any more, because in the Spell Compendium it's not specified that it can only be cast on a bludgeoning weapon, but strongly implies it based on the spell text. It does limit it to wood only, though.
Pinky's brain
04-01-06, 06:42 PM The Elvencraft bow when used as a melee weapon functions as a club ... as for if it is worth it, if it does 1 more point of damage it's worth it ;)

In retrospect I have no idea why I was using fuse arms with the arms of plenty, it only makes sense with Girallon's Blessing ... even with the huge number of attacks an extra natural attack does more damage than a couple extra points of strength (especially when the spells which give them don't follow normal natural attack rules and give you full strength).
Pinky's brain
04-01-06, 07:42 PM Forgot all about the Centaur's hooves.

Ack, the shapechange polymorph chaining doesn't work anymore either according to the FAQ ... guess Ill have to use shapechange combined with mind switch or magic jar instead.
Gideon_Gideonson
04-02-06, 12:30 PM Nice. Its definitely cleaner then my Centaur build. Only problem is that you do need custom items to be able to cast all those spells :D

Even so, its great. Mind if I use some of these ideas on my Demon Charger?
Pinky's brain
04-02-06, 12:59 PM Nice. Its definitely cleaner then my Centaur build. Only problem is that you do need custom items to be able to cast all those spells :DI doubt it, it's a lot of spells ... but most have more than enough duration, if the round per CL spells become a problem there are always boots of temporal acceleration. As for the spells which have to be cast JIT, you can use contingently crafted spells for that ... that won't work with powers of course, you will need delayed or extended metapsionics for that. The only problem is that he could only pull it off for one round.

Noone owns anything here, use what you want :)
Gideon_Gideonson
04-02-06, 04:07 PM Just thought you might be interested to know that I've given you co-author credit on the Demonic Charger, due to the immense value of your input. We've reached a 138,000 damage minimum!
Pinky's brain
04-02-06, 05:04 PM Hmm, I had never read Girallon's blessing well enough ... I thought the arms couldn't be used for weapon attacks.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Pinky's brain 04-01-06, 04:23 PM	After getting smacked down as a soul eater by the Sage ADIB decided to have some levels drained and regained, reform his psyche and change his race. In contrast to the normal charger builds I endeavour to use no 3.0 books without a 3.5 update, no cross setting stuff (with one exception even I could not resist) and no houserules or anything which requires explicit DM approval except for source selection. This removes the use custom magic items and multi-pouncing. The only things I purposely ignore are loops and the potential for additional damage from animated/dominated/controlled/summoned/constructed/recruited/whatever creatures. Parts of the builds are left to figure out as an excercise for the reader to save on typing. Tricks used which might be of interest : - Elvencraft bow (RotW) used as melee weapon together with Hunter's Mercy. - Cavalier's (CW) deadly charge used with Leap Attack (CAdv) using Centaur form (from Gideon's UberEr(er)Charger). - Spare hands belt (MoE) used so you can wield an extra Valenar double scimitars (ECS) to get more out of the Revenant Blade (PGtE). - Shapechange abuse with Chronotyryn (FF). - Item Alteration (ECS) abuse for large gain in strength Elf 1. Artificer 1, Bladebearer of the Valenar 2. Fighter 1, Weapon Focus (Valenar double scimitar) 3. Artificer 2, Power Attack 4. Fighter 2, Leap Attack 5. Artificer 3 6. Fighter 3, Mounted Combat 7. Artificer 4, Quicken Spell 8. Fighter 4, Ride-By Attack 9. Artificer 5, Spirited Charge 10. Fighter 5 11. Artificer 6 12. Fighter 6, Weapon Focus (lance), MWF 13. Revenant Blade 1 14. Revenant Blade 2 15. Revenant Blade 3, IMWF 16. Revenant Blade 4 17. Revenant Blade 5 18. Exotic Weapons Master 1, Exotic Flurry, GMWF 19. Cavalier 1 20. Cavalier 2 Important items : +1 huge bow, Elvencraft, Collision 3x +1/+1 large Valenar double scimitars, Collision Spare hands belt Glove of Storing Important spells/powers : Psychofeedback (ML 20) Extended Psionic Lion's Charge (ML 20) Offensive Prescience (ML 19) Giant Size (CL 19) Hunter's Mercy Mighty Wallop Rhino's Rush Divine Power Divine Favor (CL 9) Shapechange (Chronotyryn) Polymorph (Centaur) Bite of the Werebear Girallon's Blessing Fuse Arms Arms of Plenty Scorpion Tail Greater Visage of the Deity Bull's Strength (infusion) Item Alteration Haste Brambles (CL 10) Greater Magic Fang Dominate monster Mind switch Gained by a combination of powerstones, scrolls, spellstoring rings, contingent spells, minor schemas etc etc (necessary UPD skills gained from combinations of skill enhancement & divine insight). Weapons are boosted to +5 by GWM, and baned for the enemy by weapon augmentation personal. The centaur body is assumed by having a pet dominated centaur, you first shapechange into a Chronotyryn and then mind switch with the centaur. Strength : 18 base, Centaur +32 size, Giant Size +16 enhancement, Bite of the Werebear +20 unnamed, Psychofeedback +4 unnamed, Greater Visage of the Deity +20 insight/luck/morale/profane/sacred, Bull's Strength (infusion) and Item Alteration = 110 Bonuses to Damage : +5 unnamed, Collision +3 luck, Divine Favor +17 circumstance, Psionic Lion's Charge +8 insight, Offensive Prescience = 33 with bow : +10 enhancement, Brambles +80 unnamed, Power attack + Leap Attack = 123 with scimitars : +7 enhancement, GWM and weapon augmentation personal(bane) +1 Bladebearer of the Valenar +2 Weapon Specialization +80 unnamed, Power attack + Leap Attack = 123 with arms of plenty, scorpion tail and hooves : +1 enhancement, Greater Magic Fang +40 unnamed, Power attack + Leap Attack = 74 Multiplier : 3 deadly charge with bow only : 1 critical (hunter's mercy) 1 Rhino's rush Damage : bow attack : 5 x (8d6 + 123 + 75) + 2d6 = 1137 scimitar attacks : 41 x (3 x (4d6 + 123 + 75) + 2d6) = 26363 arms of plenty, including rend, scorpion's tail and hooves 2 x (2 x (4d6 + 74 + 50) + (8d6 + 75) + (2d6 + 74 + 50) + 2 x (3d6 + 74 + 25)) = 1458 Total damage assuming no crits and all hits 28958. Most questionable parts about the build AFAICS : - Uses centaur + spirited charge rule only found in RoF, and extrapolates it to also working with deadly charge. - Uses two double-weapons with spare hands (assuming that since one end counts as light they can help you wield them) using rules only found with the Thri-Kreen description. - Uses the elvencraft bow as a melee weapon with hunter's mercy. - After using the elvencraft bow as a two-handed weapon one time he drops it and switches to scimitar (from glove of storage) with a multiweapon fighting routine ... the FAQ allows switching weapon inside your attack routine, but the switch from two handed to double weapon is pushing it. - Uses deadly charge on all attacks after the charge, including the ones from the second round granted by Shapechange (Chronotyryn). Although if necessary you could probably find a way to fit hustle in there with delay power so you could charge for real the second time. - Leap attack is assumed to work the same as supreme power attack from FB, since they both say they add +100% to the damage and supreme power attack has an example which explicitly says that means you get a 1 to 4 ratio. Room for extra damage : - Didn't use damage from extra dice (bursts etc) - Didn't count smite attack from Greater Visage of the Deity. - Might be able to get more natural attacks and or limbs for Fuse Arms. - Probably lots of other spells which give bonuses to damage I forgot. - Use off hand speed weapons (disallowed in the 3.0 FAQ, but never in 3.5). - Use mind switch or magic jar with an advanced/templated centaur. - Craft contingent spell with rhino's rush can add some extra damage too, won't work with hunter's mercy unfortunately (ie. the first goes off when you charge, the second after your first attack on charge, the third after the second etc).
Kessalin Talira 04-01-06, 06:28 PM	What are you casting Brambles on? The only wooden weapon you have listed is your bow, and brambles specifically doesn't work on it. It'd take a DM ruling to allow, I think. Even if it does work, is it really worth it? Considering that there's no way to use it on your double scimitars unless they're wood, too, I don't know that it is. The wording on brambles is rather questionable any more, because in the Spell Compendium it's not specified that it can only be cast on a bludgeoning weapon, but strongly implies it based on the spell text. It does limit it to wood only, though.
Pinky's brain 04-01-06, 06:42 PM	The Elvencraft bow when used as a melee weapon functions as a club ... as for if it is worth it, if it does 1 more point of damage it's worth it ;) In retrospect I have no idea why I was using fuse arms with the arms of plenty, it only makes sense with Girallon's Blessing ... even with the huge number of attacks an extra natural attack does more damage than a couple extra points of strength (especially when the spells which give them don't follow normal natural attack rules and give you full strength).
Pinky's brain 04-01-06, 07:42 PM	Forgot all about the Centaur's hooves. Ack, the shapechange polymorph chaining doesn't work anymore either according to the FAQ ... guess Ill have to use shapechange combined with mind switch or magic jar instead.
Gideon_Gideonson 04-02-06, 12:30 PM	Nice. Its definitely cleaner then my Centaur build. Only problem is that you do need custom items to be able to cast all those spells :D Even so, its great. Mind if I use some of these ideas on my Demon Charger?
Pinky's brain 04-02-06, 12:59 PM	Nice. Its definitely cleaner then my Centaur build. Only problem is that you do need custom items to be able to cast all those spells :DI doubt it, it's a lot of spells ... but most have more than enough duration, if the round per CL spells become a problem there are always boots of temporal acceleration. As for the spells which have to be cast JIT, you can use contingently crafted spells for that ... that won't work with powers of course, you will need delayed or extended metapsionics for that. The only problem is that he could only pull it off for one round. Noone owns anything here, use what you want :)
Gideon_Gideonson 04-02-06, 04:07 PM	Just thought you might be interested to know that I've given you co-author credit on the Demonic Charger, due to the immense value of your input. We've reached a 138,000 damage minimum!
Pinky's brain 04-02-06, 05:04 PM	Hmm, I had never read Girallon's blessing well enough ... I thought the arms couldn't be used for weapon attacks.