Post/Author/DateTime	Post
juanrdp 07-16-04, 05:46 AM	Currently my character is at level 10 with: Cleric - 5 SpellDancer - 2 Shifter - 2 Dragonslayer - 1 żWhat could be the next level?, i think that maybe Witch Hunter (for divine grace due to my char and detect evil at will), but the need of Track hurts a lot. I've the dude of a new level of shiter as the abilities to asume magical beast, and bigger creatures is ok, but the loss of the caster level (and i already loss 2) hurts also. żAny Idea?
cryptictravler 07-16-04, 08:37 PM	Well, since you got one of the most awesomly broken PrCs in existance in, why not go for something that grants feats and continued cleric casting levels. Then just have spikes, righteous might, divine favor....all day long. You will only need about 6 more levels of caster and Practised spell caster to make your DM cry.
Fălenganor 07-16-04, 08:51 PM	one of the most awesomly broken PrCs in existance Spelldancer (it`s Spelldancer you`re talking about, isn`t it?) is broken, but not that much.
Naja 07-17-04, 06:00 AM	Originally posted by Fălenganor Spelldancer (it`s Spelldancer you`re talking about, isn`t it?) is broken, but not that much. Well, as a Divine Spelldancer, it could become pretty much the most powerful addition to this (or any other) build. That said: the best class to add depends on your spell availability: do you have access to Cat´s Grace and/or Eagle´s Splendor? With both, you could get some cheese out of Mystic Wanderer (MoF); the first level lets you add your CHA-Mod to AC when unarmored. Just talk your DM into giving you a 3.5 Monk´s Belt, and you get Dex, Cha and Wis to AC...
Fălenganor 07-17-04, 11:35 AM	Originally posted by Naja Well, as a Divine Spelldancer, it could become pretty much the most powerful addition to this (or any other) build. That said: the best class to add depends on your spell availability: do you have access to Cat´s Grace and/or Eagle´s Splendor? With both, you could get some cheese out of Mystic Wanderer (MoF); the first level lets you add your CHA-Mod to AC when unarmored. Just talk your DM into giving you a 3.5 Monk´s Belt, and you get Dex, Cha and Wis to AC... I know, but what let me curious is the fact that is spelldancer is broken but it`s not that much, I just wanted to hear why cryptictravler think it`s so broken.
cryptictravler 07-17-04, 12:28 PM	Well spelldance is incradibly powerful for anyone who buffs. Most abilties that grant low level access to metamagic have a cost or limit. Divine metamagic has a limit of about 13 total levels before you have to start pouring on feats. You get maybe 2 perists off. Thats divine power, righteous might always on at 11th level. Spell dancer-especially in 3.0, was beefy because not only was persist +4, but there were ways around the limit on dancing. I can get crystal keep working and can't remember the effect...it was either exhaustion or something along those lines. I seem to remember a saying called why maximize when you can spell dance.
Naja 07-17-04, 01:49 PM	Originally posted by cryptictravler Well spelldance is incradibly powerful for anyone who buffs. Most abilties that grant low level access to metamagic have a cost or limit. Divine metamagic has a limit of about 13 total levels before you have to start pouring on feats. You get maybe 2 perists off. Thats divine power, righteous might always on at 11th level. Well, a human cleric can take Spelldancer as fast as level 7. At that level, he either lost a casterlevel to Rogue/Bard to gain high Perform ranks or has just fullfilled the prerequisites skillwise. At 9th level he can take Extend Spell (Before that he hasn´t had any opportunity, because all feat slots are occupied by fullfilling Spelldancers requirements. Sidenote: those four feats are wasted!) At 12th he can take Persistant Spell. So he is delayed by 3 levels to get Persistant Divine Favor (Which is argueably more necessary to success as is Divine Power). At 15th level he can take Empower Spell. Divine Metamagic requires you to have high Charisma (Spelldancer does, too), and costs around 3-4 Feats [Extend, Persistant, Divine Metamagic (Persistant), Extra Turning], which are all usefull even if taken without DM. Conclusion: A Divine Metamagic Cleric reaches its breakpoint around level 9-11 (getting Righteous Might). At that level he has all required feats. A Spelldancer-Cleric reaches its breakpoint around level 12, more correctily 15! (That is when he can dance empowered, extended 3.0-Buffs). He has to have high INT (for Skillpoints its 16 ranks to get spelldancer), WIS, CHA, CON (for fatigue checks). Spelldancer is powerful, but before claiming its broken beyond relief, actually try to play one (I have done that with a cleric spelldancer, and am now playing an arcane one). Spell dancer-especially in 3.0, was beefy because not only was persist +4, but there were ways around the limit on dancing. Persistant was actually not the problem with the Spelldancer. The problem has been multi-extension and multi-empowerment. That had given the impression of spelldancer and also Incantatrix being "broken". What ways are you talking about? It has always been the part of the cleric to "heal" ability damage, now that is not a way "around the limit on dancing", even if the spelldancer can now dance a few more rounds.... Posted byFălenganor I know, but what let me curious is the fact that is spelldancer is broken but it`s not that much, I just wanted to hear why cryptictravler think it`s so broken. Misunderstood you. Well, I don´t see spelldancer as broken. [Edit: minor spelling and grammar issues]
cryptictravler 07-17-04, 06:36 PM	Yeah you are right it was empower that was a real problem. Especially with low level buffs and the metamagic of 3.0, but in a 3.5 game the class is less munchy...way less. I would agree it isn't bad in 3.5.
juanrdp 07-18-04, 11:27 AM	Originally posted by Naja Well, a [B]human cleric can take Spelldancer as fast as level 7. At that level, he either lost a casterlevel to Rogue/Bard to gain high Perform ranks or has just fullfilled the prerequisites skillwise. At 9th level he can take Extend Spell (Before that he hasn´t had any opportunity, because all feat slots are occupied by fullfilling Spelldancers requirements. Sidenote: those four feats are wasted!) At 12th he can take Persistant Spell. No, a cleric, with defects from UA to give to more feats at level 1 (at the cost of two defects maybe -2 ranged and -4 spot and search), the cleric domain of planification (i think it is) that give extend spell, and cosmopolitan feat to get dance as class skill could get the spelldancer class with persistant spell at 6 level, and gain divine metamagic at 9, without the loss of any caster level. And really, SpellDancer is broken, with a ring of sustenance you could rest 2 hours (and regain all the spells as the cleric doesn't need to rest 8 hours to get the spells) lauch all the need spells with persistance even with exaustion and loss of con, regain it with minor restore of 2nd cleric and sleep another 2 hours to rest all the exaustion. In four hours you are like new with all the spells in persistence.
Naja 07-18-04, 12:39 PM	Originally posted by juanrdp No, a cleric, with defects from UA to give to more feats That does only mean Unearthed Arcana´s Flaws are "broken". [/B] And really, SpellDancer is broken, with a ring of sustenance you could rest 2 hours (and regain all the spells as the cleric doesn't need to rest 8 hours to get the spells) lauch all the need spells with persistance even with exaustion and loss of con, regain it with minor restore of 2nd cleric and sleep another 2 hours to rest all the exaustion. [/B] I know, but a Cleric can only gain Spells once per day! Let´s get back to topic. I do really think that keeping caster progression should be your foremost concern (two levels loss is just acceptable for Spelldancers). BAB is only of minor concern (because you can & will spelldance or Divine Metamagic Persistant Divine Power)[ouch: 3.0 Spelldancer cant dance evocations! I don´t have the PGtF, so can´t check if a 3.5 spelldancer can] So, perhaps the old Mystic Wanderer is quite good for the whole 10 levels of it: CHA to AC (great, you shift a lot), some minor abilities and access to all and every first to third level arcane spells as potions. Another options would be Contemplative: get Mysticism Domain?! Now with CD out, this option isn´t as good. So, we need some more input on your character: Domain (Planning & ???), race, feats, etc...
juanrdp 07-19-04, 02:56 AM	STR: 10 - DEX: 10 - CON: 16 +3 INT: 10 - SAB: 18 +4 CHA: 14 +2 1: Cleric - 1 0,5,0,5 D8 Domain: Moon ( Turn Lycantropes ) Domain: Planning Domain ( Extend Spell ) * Alertness * Dodge # Cosmopolitan (Dance) - Inattentive (-4 Listen y Spot) -- Combat Casting - Shaky ( -2 Ranged ) -- Persistent Spell + Endurance (Ascendant as per IK rules, in this campain ) 2: Cleric - 2 1,6,0,6 D8 3: Cleric - 3 2,6,1,6 D8 * Movility 4: Cleric - 4 3,7,1,7 D8 5: Cleric - 5 3,7,1,7 D8 6: SpelldDancer- 1 3,7,3,9 D6 +1 Spell Level ( Cleric - 6 ) * Divine Metamagic 7: Shifter - 1 3,9,5,9 D8 Greater wildshape 1/day (Small, medium Humaniud) 8: SpelldDancer-2 4,9,6,11 D6 +1 Nivel Conjuro (Clérigo -7) Danza Cautivadora Evasion 9: Shifter - 2 5,10,6,12 D8 Greater wildshape (animal shape, mostruos humanoid shape) * Asumme suprenatural hability while shifting (o don't remember the name, Savage Species, Half-Iron Golem magic inmmunity) 10: Dragonslayer 6/1,9,7,9 D10 Aura of Courage +1 Spell Level (Cleric -8) +1 damage versus Dracons Normally persisted spells * Giraldon Bless (6 arms more, works great with 2 heads template) * Divine Power * Recitation Normally shiftin in * Mutant Sajuaguin half-iron golem feral with wings and 2 heads Str 30 Dex 15 AC +17 Natural Iron golem magic inmunity Fast Healing 3 Fly good man Improved iniciative, superior multiwepon fighting Attacks: Arms: 10x(+20) 10x(+15) Sometime use one or two reach weapons Byte: 2x(+15)