Advanced Combat Tactics Thread [Archive] - Wizards Community

Advanced Combat Tactics Thread [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Frodo Fett
09-08-04, 07:33 PM Inspired in part by all the cool handbooks and by this thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=303749) on Combat Expertise, I thought it might be helpful to have a thread on optimized combat tactics (please provide a link if such a thread exists already, otherwise...)

I figure there may be some cool tactics that you've come across but maybe not everyone has thought of, and it would be helpful for everyone to have a central place to look for new ideas.

Please feel free to delineate your tactics here, or link to other discussions or posts, as usual.
Frodo Fett
09-08-04, 07:50 PM There are a number of combat maneuvers which confer some bonus at the expense of an attack penalty. When faced with a situation in which your character already has a hard time connecting in combat, you might think such tactics will only make things worse for you - but you could be quite wrong!

Consider the case where your character needs to roll a 20 to hit: if you take -6 to your attack, what do you then need to roll? Still a 20, right?

Conclusion: the harder your opponent is to hit, the lower the "cost" of using these tactics becomes. In particular, if you already need a 20 to hit your opponent, there is no cost to adopting these tactics.

A (certainly non-exhaustive) list of such tactics:

Fighting Defensively
Two-Weapon Fighting (even without any feats)
Combat Expertiese feat
Power Attack feat

So the next time your DM confronts you with some uber-AC beastie (or subjects you to other attack penalties,) give yourself some advantages at little-to-no cost.
Mommy was an Orc
09-09-04, 12:25 AM A +1 to hit represents a +10% to damage on average. Gaining a +1 to hit or better yet, an additional full bab attack is worth a lot. Tactics that take advantage of this will do well. The power of the Utility caster who can cast Haste is phenomenal in 3.5 in a party with a large number of players focused on physical combat. Bardic Music is also quite powerful because of this.

Remember that some spells which cause attacks are not themselves attacks. Invisibility isn't broken by Summoning monsters as an example nor is casting Haste onto the newly summoned monsters and any party members. Learning Celestial if you plan to summon a lot is a useful skill.

Use Bluff skill if you can - the ability for a party to communicate secretly in the middle of combat is quite useful, particularly when fighting opponents who some members of the party can see and others can't(sigh)
Blade2718
09-09-04, 12:26 AM Not sure if you know about this, but Funny Slaughter put up a 3.5 Tactics thread, which can be found in the Optimization Library.
catharz
09-09-04, 12:30 AM A +1 to hit represents a +10% to damage on average.

I'm not very good with math, but isn't +1 a 5% increase?
Mr. Dog
09-09-04, 01:06 AM I have recently become rather fond of Karmic strike and sidestep.

Essentially, you use karmic strike to gain an attack of opportunity against anyone who strikes you in melee. After the attack of opportunity (enhanced by Double Hit, Improved Trip, Arcane Strike, Etc.), you use sidestep to take a 5' step away from the opponent. Then, they're too far away to continue swinging if they were using a full attack.

I like using this when I'm enlarged (or a large creature) and have reach, because it lets me stand where I am and swing away on my turn for a full attack, then they still only get the one swing on their turn before I use karmic strike/sidestep again.

Defensive throw lets me trip them if they miss, karmic strike lets me hit them if they hit.

It works very well.
Mommy was an Orc
09-09-04, 08:13 AM Nope. It certainly seems like it should, doesn't it? But let's say you have a 6th level Fighter, swinging a sword with +11/+6. He's attacking someone with a 20 AC.

He would expect to hit on a 9 and a 14, or 60% and 35% of the time. Add those two numbers together and you get 95%, or .95 - the average expected numbers of hits.

Now give him a +1 to hit, for +12/+7. He now hits on an 8 and a 13, or 65 and 40% of the time. 105% or 1.05, the expected number of hits.

1.05/.95 = 1.105, or a 10.5% increase. As you hit 10.5% more often, you do 10.5% more damage. I'm throwing out crits as they don't really affect the math all that much.

+13/+8 means 7 and 12 or 115%. 1.15/1.05 = 9.5% increase.

It will eventually go down to close to 5%, but never quite reach there. But on the flip side, if you only hit someone on a 19 and 20, getting a +1 means you generate an additional 50% hits...

I'm not very good with math, but isn't +1 a 5% increase?
Frodo Fett
09-09-04, 12:02 PM Not sure if you know about this, but Funny Slaughter put up a 3.5 Tactics thread, which can be found in the Optimization Library.Oops, you're right. I'll work on transferring stuff to there, and I hope Funny works on updating his links in that thread, and in the FAQ.

Mommy & Mr. Dog: Thanks for the tactics.

Everyone: If you have anything else to add, please post it to Funny Slaughter's Tactics Thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=243030) instead of here.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Frodo Fett 09-08-04, 07:33 PM	Inspired in part by all the cool handbooks and by this thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=303749) on Combat Expertise, I thought it might be helpful to have a thread on optimized combat tactics (please provide a link if such a thread exists already, otherwise...) I figure there may be some cool tactics that you've come across but maybe not everyone has thought of, and it would be helpful for everyone to have a central place to look for new ideas. Please feel free to delineate your tactics here, or link to other discussions or posts, as usual.
Frodo Fett 09-08-04, 07:50 PM	There are a number of combat maneuvers which confer some bonus at the expense of an attack penalty. When faced with a situation in which your character already has a hard time connecting in combat, you might think such tactics will only make things worse for you - but you could be quite wrong! Consider the case where your character needs to roll a 20 to hit: if you take -6 to your attack, what do you then need to roll? Still a 20, right? Conclusion: the harder your opponent is to hit, the lower the "cost" of using these tactics becomes. In particular, if you already need a 20 to hit your opponent, there is no cost to adopting these tactics. A (certainly non-exhaustive) list of such tactics: Fighting Defensively Two-Weapon Fighting (even without any feats) Combat Expertiese feat Power Attack feat So the next time your DM confronts you with some uber-AC beastie (or subjects you to other attack penalties,) give yourself some advantages at little-to-no cost.
Mommy was an Orc 09-09-04, 12:25 AM	A +1 to hit represents a +10% to damage on average. Gaining a +1 to hit or better yet, an additional full bab attack is worth a lot. Tactics that take advantage of this will do well. The power of the Utility caster who can cast Haste is phenomenal in 3.5 in a party with a large number of players focused on physical combat. Bardic Music is also quite powerful because of this. Remember that some spells which cause attacks are not themselves attacks. Invisibility isn't broken by Summoning monsters as an example nor is casting Haste onto the newly summoned monsters and any party members. Learning Celestial if you plan to summon a lot is a useful skill. Use Bluff skill if you can - the ability for a party to communicate secretly in the middle of combat is quite useful, particularly when fighting opponents who some members of the party can see and others can't(sigh)
Blade2718 09-09-04, 12:26 AM	Not sure if you know about this, but Funny Slaughter put up a 3.5 Tactics thread, which can be found in the Optimization Library.
catharz 09-09-04, 12:30 AM	A +1 to hit represents a +10% to damage on average. I'm not very good with math, but isn't +1 a 5% increase?
Mr. Dog 09-09-04, 01:06 AM	I have recently become rather fond of Karmic strike and sidestep. Essentially, you use karmic strike to gain an attack of opportunity against anyone who strikes you in melee. After the attack of opportunity (enhanced by Double Hit, Improved Trip, Arcane Strike, Etc.), you use sidestep to take a 5' step away from the opponent. Then, they're too far away to continue swinging if they were using a full attack. I like using this when I'm enlarged (or a large creature) and have reach, because it lets me stand where I am and swing away on my turn for a full attack, then they still only get the one swing on their turn before I use karmic strike/sidestep again. Defensive throw lets me trip them if they miss, karmic strike lets me hit them if they hit. It works very well.
Mommy was an Orc 09-09-04, 08:13 AM	Nope. It certainly seems like it should, doesn't it? But let's say you have a 6th level Fighter, swinging a sword with +11/+6. He's attacking someone with a 20 AC. He would expect to hit on a 9 and a 14, or 60% and 35% of the time. Add those two numbers together and you get 95%, or .95 - the average expected numbers of hits. Now give him a +1 to hit, for +12/+7. He now hits on an 8 and a 13, or 65 and 40% of the time. 105% or 1.05, the expected number of hits. 1.05/.95 = 1.105, or a 10.5% increase. As you hit 10.5% more often, you do 10.5% more damage. I'm throwing out crits as they don't really affect the math all that much. +13/+8 means 7 and 12 or 115%. 1.15/1.05 = 9.5% increase. It will eventually go down to close to 5%, but never quite reach there. But on the flip side, if you only hit someone on a 19 and 20, getting a +1 means you generate an additional 50% hits... I'm not very good with math, but isn't +1 a 5% increase?
Frodo Fett 09-09-04, 12:02 PM	Not sure if you know about this, but Funny Slaughter put up a 3.5 Tactics thread, which can be found in the Optimization Library.Oops, you're right. I'll work on transferring stuff to there, and I hope Funny works on updating his links in that thread, and in the FAQ. Mommy & Mr. Dog: Thanks for the tactics. Everyone: If you have anything else to add, please post it to Funny Slaughter's Tactics Thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=243030) instead of here.