Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Pallin Rahl 03-08-05, 08:56 PM	After basically wrapping up a recent campaign, our DM wants to run us through a small epic adventure... as we never really get to mess around with characters even near those levels. ;) We decided it would be fun to take our existing characters from the previous campaign and just advance them to the epic level our DM decided to set. The level our DM decided on was: Level 27. Thing is... I had only planned my character out through level 20 ...with little hope that I'd even be getting there anytime soon hehe SO... I'm looking for suggestions on how to best optimize my figher/mage hybrid's class progression to the epic level of 27. Currently he's level 15. More specifically: Paladin 2 / Sorcerer 4 / Spellsword 5 / Eldritch Knight 4 ...I'm considering taking Eldritch Knight to 10 ...possibly taking Spellsword to 10 as well (not sure)... but even if I did, I'd have some levels to work with heh. Looking, of course, to keep my BAB up & my caster level up... among the other important bits. Things will most likely be combat-heavy... in this short epic adventure. So, what do you think? :) Any suggestions (and the reasoning behind them) are greatly appreciated! :D
Vorlir 03-08-05, 09:22 PM	Once you hit epic your bab is set. You do, however, regardless of class gain a +1 to hit every odd level. Personally, I would work a build to get 9th level spells. Shapechange is a favorite of mine.
Pallin Rahl 03-08-05, 09:34 PM	Good point, about the set BAB thing post 20... I guess, then, it might be useful to look for classes that have interesting/beneficial abilities ...as well as +1 lvl spellcasting - regardless of the classes' BAB progression... Eh... I'm open to your suggestions! :D ~~~ OH... because I forgot to mention it earlier... This is for 3.5 All core books allowed. Complete Warrior, Divine, Arcane, and Adventurer allowed. :)
Lord Zeb 03-08-05, 09:36 PM	Hmm, sounds like fun... BASE Paladin 2 / Sorcerer 4 / Spellsword 5 / Eldritch Knight 4 levels 16 - 20: EK to 9 21: Dragonslayer 1 22-23: Archmage 2 (Shaping and Elements) 24-27: maybe Spellsword to 9??? BAB pre-epic +18, with +4 epic is +22 CL 20 if I did the math right Level 27 is pretty up there, I'm sure there are some better choices....I will ponder. :)
Marcus Majarra 03-08-05, 11:46 PM	The important things to keep in mind is that you have 12 levels to achieve 10 caster levels, at the very least. That's basically to maximize your spellcasting ability, and let you reap the benefits of epic spellcasting. Up to level 20, you need to maximize your BAB, since it becomes set afterwards. There are two obvious choices for levels 15-20: Eldritch Knight or Spellsword (the latter is good if you want to channel more spells every day, might as well go for it) After that, I suggest you stick to PrCs with full CLs. The good ones include: Elemental Savant (your mastery of elements allows you to bypass the forced energy type). This isn't a bad way to get resistance 10 to one energy type, immunity to sleep, and better spell penetration. No more than 4 levels are to be taken. Fatespinner is okay, but no more than 4 levels, again. Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil is awesome. It's only 7 levels too, leaving you open to take new courses of action after the epic adjustment. The Mindbender's 1st level might be a good investment, if you want free Telepathy. Wild Mage isn't bad, if you take the Practiced Spellcaster feat to offset the CL penalty (I can't believe the designers missed this). Divine Oracle isn't a bad idea at all. Just the Prescient Sense and Improved Uncanny Dodge are great in the fray of melee. Sacred Exorcist has A LOT of potential, due to little requirements, and it grants you turning attempts which, consequently, opens the doorway to divine feats (ahem, Divine Metamagic!). Consecrated Presence ain't bad to have either. Enjoy.
Vatras 03-09-05, 01:04 AM	In the epic levels many of the bundled up 5 PrC builds are becoming weaker than a straight core class (casters) or a core class with a single PrC. Your current character has an arcane caster level of 10, and a BAB of +13. Depending on your preference you can either try to maximize melee (and use spells only as support for melee), or you can get another 12 caster levels to play like one. The problem is that 5 levels difference in caster levels is going to show. You have also to consider epic feats. Only PrCs of 11th or higher level, and core classes above 20 qualify for epic bonus feats. The multi-class builds get therefore less epic feats than straight ones. The synergy of high stats and epic levels also favors classes which use a stat for a lot of calculations, like CHA for a paladin. So it would be most advantageous to add levels to one of the classes you already have. It also has to be a PrC to get epic bonus feats as soon as possible. The easiest way would be to get the Spellsword to 10th level, and continue leveling in this PrC to 27. The advantages would be BAB +18 and nice base saves. In epic levels the Spellsword would only progress the "ignore arcane spell failure" ability, but its nice to have 50% in it. Your caster level would be only 16, but 8th level spells are OK as mere support to melee, and you can bolster the caster level with practised spellcaster. You would get three regular epic feats at 21, 24 and 27, as well as a bonus feat at 24. When going the caster way, you could take 10 levels in a PrC with full spellcasting progression for more special abilities and take two levels of archmage (for the mastery powers), making up the missing levels with Practised Spellcaster (spells as a sorcerer 20, CL 26).
Pallin Rahl 03-09-05, 02:39 PM	Something I should have noted... From the point my character is at right now... my original plan was to take Eldritch Knight for the rest of his levels. My original 20-level build: Paladin 2 / Sorcerer 4 / Spellsword 5 / Eldritch Knight 9 I'm stronly considering staying on that path... but, of course, that still would leave 7 epic levels to play around with :) ...but I'm open to suggestions ...just figured I'd mention that. :)
Iaimeki 03-09-05, 03:17 PM	Epic arcane warrior theory 101: your BAB is fixed after 20th level. Therefore, you should take full-casting PrCs that give you all the neat casting benefits you missed out on at lower levels without fear of gimping your BAB. There are only two problems with this: casting PrCs typically have low hit points, and since you won't be taking epic advancement, you'll miss out on epic feats. For casters, epic feats tend to be awesome. You should ask your DM what kind of epic progression they would give you for spellsword. I don't think maxing eldritch knight for the epic progression is worth it: the advancement for a full-casting PrC with no other special abilities is 1 feat/3 levels, and eldritch knight only gives you 1 feat/4 levels, with no other abilities except for d6 hit dice. With 27 levels, maximizing your casting is a must. Beyond that, decide how much BAB you want, then base your PrC choices on that. I'd recommend looking at the following PrCs: Archmage: if you have the feats, you can grab some useful special abilities. Many of the abilities don't go too well with an arcane warrior's style, though. Dragon Disciple: The major point would be getting d12 hit dice while putting the bonus spells in 9th (or higher) level slots. Green Star Adept: In pre-epic levels, this class hurts your BAB and casting too much to be worthwhile, but epic levels work around those problems, and the class offers some good benefits: the ability to heal yourself with repair spells, lots of good abilities that function in an antimagic field, and a laundry list of immunities. Mage of the Arcane Order: Flexibility for your sorcerer casting, goes well with Leadership and an arcane caster as a cohort. Incantatrix: Probably the best arcane caster PrC in existence. Initiate of the Seven Veils: A good arcane casting PrC which meshes well with some kinds of arcane warrior combat techniques. Sacred Exorcist: 1 level dip for turning so you can take Divine Might. If you gave us more information (feats you have already, combat style, etc.), that would help.
Squirrelloid 03-09-05, 05:49 PM	Let me add to Iaimeki's list - If you're using OA, may i add Eunuch Warlock to the list. Bonus spell slots (into 9th and... 10th! (take extra spell slot for the 10th level slot as an epic feat)) and permanently empower and maximize your favorite spells. Just awesome. Only for epic levels, of course.
Pallin Rahl 03-09-05, 08:08 PM	Let me add to Iaimeki's list - If you're using OA, may i add Eunuch Warlock to the list... ...but ...but ...a tear comes to my eye when I see the pre-req... I don't know if I could do that to my poor little... uh... character. :p hehe We're not using OA. ...but thanks for the suggestion anyway ;) Keep the great ideas coming! :D
Sang-Drax 03-10-05, 04:54 AM	First of all... 1-level dip in Sacred Exorcist. It's absolutely necessary; Divine Might is too freaking powerful to let it pass by - although having Turn Undead won't make you able to use Divine Metamagic: it only applies to divine spells. Don't take Spellsword to 10th level, that would be suuuuch a waste... Spellsword 5 is just fine. You wont really need more than 3 channel spells a day, which is pretty balanced for the lost of 2 CL. More than that is just not worth it. I'd go Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 5/Eldritch Knight 5/Sacred Exorcist 4 for non-Epic. Yeah, I know, I've wasted a BAB with SE, but I've free Epic levels for something better. What books are you using? War Mage from Age Of Mortals is great for combat Cha spellcasters... bonus metamagic, more Ignore ASF, up to +3 per dmg per die for damage spells, +Cha to AC (morale bonus) to up to 3 allies. Spellguard Of Silverymoon is also good... both of these are 5-level classes.
Pallin Rahl 03-10-05, 01:22 PM	As I mentioned in a reply up there... We're using: Core books (PHB, DMG, MM) Complete Warrior Complete Arcane Complete Divine Complete Adventurer ...and he'd probably allow the FR campaign book, though it is not a FR adventure. Though I didn't mention it earlier, no Psionics... DM's choice... :)
Rod Howard 03-10-05, 01:52 PM	Remember that in epic levels, you will ALWAYS be weaker than a pure caster. Multiclassing is good if your DM doesn't allow epic levels, but it's a poor choice in an epic playground, not an optimized one. If you are going to play a poor choice aniway, then anything is good. If you want to play an optimized character, you just have to change build.
Iaimeki 03-10-05, 04:05 PM	Remember that in epic levels, you will ALWAYS be weaker than a pure caster. Multiclassing is good if your DM doesn't allow epic levels, but it's a poor choice in an epic playground, not an optimized one. If you are going to play a poor choice aniway, then anything is good. If you want to play an optimized character, you just have to change build. My understanding was that epic levels continued to advance spell levels and spells per day (and spells known, for appropriate levels).
Endarire 03-10-05, 07:46 PM	Where does it say that one must have 10 levels of a 10 level PrC or 20 base class levels to qualify for epic bonus feats? -EE
Hot Rod 03-10-05, 10:22 PM	Where does it say that one must have 10 levels of a 10 level PrC or 20 base class levels to qualify for epic bonus feats? -EE Because bonus feats come from Epic classes and epic progressions of base classes. You still get your 1/3 feat which can be epic if your total levels >=21 You might head for the Arcane Lord from Dragon Magazine 297 (P53 erratta changes HD to D4 from D6 though) Really powerful in that it adds spells known to your Sorc, as well as free metamagic feats etc...
Pallin Rahl 03-11-05, 12:11 AM	Dang... don't have that Dragon Mag. :( ...any luck the entire PrC is posted anywhere to be linked to? :) ...probably not... (sounds interesting though). ~~~ Keep the great suggestions coming! :D
Pallin Rahl 03-11-05, 02:55 PM	Dragonslayer (mentioned above) is in the Draconomicon, correct? :) ~~~ Keep the great suggestions coming!