Adventurer Class Optimization Challenge [Archive] - Wizards Community

Adventurer Class Optimization Challenge [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Bikermattus
07-22-06, 01:14 AM I didn't know where to put it, since the rules of the optimization challenge board stated not to use alternate rules, but this is for a "homebrew" class, and I wanted it posted as an optimization challenge. If one of you WizO mods reads this challenge, and thinks it meets the qualifications for posting, please move it to the Optimization Challenge board, and strip this paragraph out of the post. Thank you.

Thanks to the EXTREMELY constructive comments & criticism when I posted it on the Classes board, as well as a suggestion to post it here, I present...
:bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce:
Just as the Fighter is the PC version of the Warrior
Just as the Rogue is the PC version of the Expert
Just as the Wizard is the PC version of the Hedge Wizard
So is the Adventurer the PC version of the Commoner

GAME RULE INFORMATION
Adventurers have the following game statistics.
Alignment: Any.
Hit Die: D8.

Class skills: All skills are considered class skills.
Skill points at first level: (8+Int modifier) x 4.
Skill points at each additional level: 8+Int modifier.
Base
Attack Fort Ref Will
Level Bonus Save Save Save Special
1st +0 +1 +1 +1 Rapid Attainment
2nd +1 +2 +2 +2
3rd +2 +2 +2 +2
4th +3 +2 +2 +2
5th +3 +3 +3 +3
6th +4 +3 +3 +3
7th +5 +4 +4 +4
8th +6/+1 +4 +4 +4
9th +6/+1 +4 +4 +4
10th +7/+2 +5 +5 +5
11th +8/+3 +5 +5 +5
12th +9/+4 +6 +6 +6
13th +9/+4 +6 +6 +6
14th +10/+5 +6 +6 +6
15th +11/+6/+1 +7 +7 +7
16th +12/+7/+2 +7 +7 +7
17th +12/+7/+2 +8 +8 +8
18th +13/+8/+3 +8 +8 +8
19th +14/+9/+4 +8 +8 +8
20th +15/+10/+5 +9 +9 +9

CLASS FEATURES
The following are class features for the Adventurer.

Weapon and armor proficiency: Adventurers are proficient in all simple weapons, as well as with a single martial or exotic weapon of their choice. Adventurers are proficient with light armor, and either medium armor or shields.

Rapid Attainment: Adventurers do not develop in any kind of specialized way. Instead, they develop their own natural abilities. Adventurers add their level to their character level for gaining feats, ability development, and prerequisites.

Given the absense of new abilities, I shan't post the Epic Adventurer.

NOTE: I am aware of the so-called "errors" in the class. I'm not forgetting anything, it's a class feature.
Caelic
07-22-06, 10:46 AM What in the world does "Adventurers add their level to their character level for gaining feats, ability development, and prerequisites" mean? As written, it means that you count your adventurer level twice for these purposes (as your adventurer level is already subsumed into your character level.)

Secondly, what does it mean for purposes of "prerequisites?" What kind of prerequisites? Prestige class prerequisites? How is that supposed to work? Do I simply add it for purposes of classes which require me to be X level (of which there are none, as far as I know?) Do I add it even to prerequisites it wouldn't normally meet? (For instance, would a 5th level adventurer meet the "5th level arcane caster" requisite?)

This needs significant clarification before it's really possible to do anything with it.
kabof
07-22-06, 11:05 AM I believe, for example, that an Adventurer 2/Warrior 2, could have Weapon Specialization, so?
baoban sith
07-22-06, 01:10 PM There was a thread of this in classes, and I assumed that there would have been some editing between reposting it.

The main issue is that this class can get epic feats by level 11. There was a list on that thread of applicable epic feats, and so one with more experience with epic should see if any of those feats are game breaking.
LordPendragon
07-22-06, 02:08 PM The Rapid Attainment bonus is added to your character level (which is essentially counting Adventurer levels twice) for determining the prerequisites of anything that requires "character level X". This does not allow Weapon Specialization unless you have 4 Fighter levels, and does not qualify for arcane caster level requirements.

The rest of Rapid Attainment means that for example, at level 6 an Adventurer would have had 3 stat increases due to character level advancement, and 5 feats; as opposed to the 1 stat and 3 feats a character would usually have by then.
Bikermattus
07-22-06, 02:50 PM There was a thread of this in classes, and I assumed that there would have been some editing between reposting it.

The main issue is that this class can get epic feats by level 11. There was a list on that thread of applicable epic feats, and so one with more experience with epic should see if any of those feats are game breaking.
That's why I reposted it from HERE (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=665255).

I don't know if it would be broken or not, so by posting it on the Optimization boards, I can see if it is, and thereby find out why, aside from that it SEEMS like it would be broken.

As a side-note, I do realise that it's not as powerful as some of the other (even base) classes, even by level 20, but I need to compare with the same sorts of characters the Adventurer would get "lumped" with.
DavidWL
07-23-06, 12:50 AM The line, "Adventurers add their level to their character level for gaining ... prerequisites." could be problematical. Anything that lets you take things "before you are supposed to" is dangerous.

Otherwise, an extra feat every 3 levels and ability point every 2 is hardly game breaking -- compare it to the human paragon from UA. You get 1 less ability point, 2 less levels of spellcasting, and more skill points. (Roughly speaking). The Adventure ends up a little under powered.

It isn't front-loaded at all, which is good.

Best,
David
Bikermattus
07-27-06, 12:46 AM The line, "Adventurers add their level to their character level for gaining ... prerequisites." could be problematical. Anything that lets you take things "before you are supposed to" is dangerous.

Otherwise, an extra feat every 3 levels and ability point every 2 is hardly game breaking -- compare it to the human paragon from UA. You get 1 less ability point, 2 less levels of spellcasting, and more skill points. (Roughly speaking). The Adventure ends up a little under powered.

It isn't front-loaded at all, which is good.

Best,
David
It may be dangerous to get things "before you are supposed to," but that's what balance against it being otherwise "underpowered." I posted it up here so that it could be tested to the limit, see how far overboard it can go. If the best anyone can do STILL doesn't measure up, I need to know that, too, so I can give it a (very) slight boost in the right direction.
DavidWL
07-28-06, 12:32 AM Well, the problem is that if they ever use character level to limit access (which they don't do as a principle, but sometimes slip), then things will start to break.

Off the top of my head, the only things which have character level requirements are leadership type feats (doesn't break the class), and epic feats (does break the class).

However, you can never guarantee that they won't come out with a feat or class in the future which is balanced at level 12, but unbalanced at level 6.

If you are willing to deal with this, then I would say the class is underpowered, and needs a bit of a boost.

Best,
David
Bikermattus
07-28-06, 12:58 AM Well, the problem is that if they ever use character level to limit access (which they don't do as a principle, but sometimes slip), then things will start to break.

Off the top of my head, the only things which have character level requirements are leadership type feats (doesn't break the class), and epic feats (does break the class).

However, you can never guarantee that they won't come out with a feat or class in the future which is balanced at level 12, but unbalanced at level 6.

If you are willing to deal with this, then I would say the class is underpowered, and needs a bit of a boost.

Best,
David
So TEST IT! Use anything in the books, or as an otherwise balanced rule/feat listed in the forums, or possibly even bend the "level" call to cover BAB (but not pre-req's for another class, like weapon specialisation). I can't see everything that can happen, but so far, even the epic stuff can't seem to break it, considering how things have gone until then...
DavidWL
07-28-06, 05:59 AM Ok.

Start out with a +2 Cha race => 20 Cha. 25 Cha at leve 10. You could probably boost your leadership score enough to take Epic Leadership ... which is more interesting because of the followers than the cohort (because of the limit that the cohort be 2 levels less than the character). Also take "extra followers" from Heroes of Battle.

A 10th level character gets followers of:
1st level 270
2nd level 26
3rd level 14
4th level 8
5th level 4
6th level 4
7th level 2

A little too good. Not horribly broken, but definitely over powered.

Be a thri-keen. Take multi-weapon fighting and greater multiweapon fighting thne perfect multiweapon fighting. A few levels of fighter, and you can be making 12 attacks around level 13 or so. (Not counting the effects of magic). You'll also have lots of feats to spare.

The reason it isn't more broken yet is because they often use caster level requirements, BAB requirements, & skill requirements. But in those rare times when they don't, the above happens.

I'm sure there exists epic prestige class that you could qualify for which would also screw things up.
Phaxi
07-28-06, 07:11 AM Thats one wierd saving throw table, try to stick with the standards.
Bikermattus
08-01-06, 06:18 PM Start out with a +2 Cha race => 20 Cha. 25 Cha at leve 10. You could probably boost your leadership score enough to take Epic Leadership ... which is more interesting because of the followers than the cohort (because of the limit that the cohort be 2 levels less than the character). Also take "extra followers" from Heroes of Battle.

A 10th level character gets followers of:
1st level 270
2nd level 26
3rd level 14
4th level 8
5th level 4
6th level 4
7th level 2

A little too good. Not horribly broken, but definitely over powered.

Be a thri-keen. Take multi-weapon fighting and greater multiweapon fighting thne perfect multiweapon fighting. A few levels of fighter, and you can be making 12 attacks around level 13 or so. (Not counting the effects of magic). You'll also have lots of feats to spare.

The reason it isn't more broken yet is because they often use caster level requirements, BAB requirements, & skill requirements. But in those rare times when they don't, the above happens.

I'm sure there exists epic prestige class that you could qualify for which would also screw things up.
Okay, now we're getting somewhere.

The leadership just begins to get slightly strained once level 11 is reached, but before it, you can RP your way to an arbitrarily high Leadership score. With Epic Leadership, you might have some interresting situations, but, since you're the weak link in your army, moreso than any other class, this may or may not make you more powerful than the other classes. It most likely depends on the campaign, even interresting enough to allow such "possible abuse."

The thri-kreen makes for an interresting possibility, worth working out to see if it's game-breaking, and I'll try to check it out myself. Remember, though, watch out for the XP penalty. Many games don't use the rule, but it's there for just such a situation.

Thanks, though, for the input. I'll have to do some cross-checking, but at least you came up with a possibility I might not have. :D
Bikermattus
08-14-06, 09:16 PM :bump: Aw, come on... please? I'd like to see more analysis...

Though I checked on the Thri-Kreen, and it seems to be a problem issue only if the Fighter gets nerfed (though WHY nerf the weakest class, I don't know). Maybe the problem is just with the race... it's a bit of a grey area...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Bikermattus 07-22-06, 01:14 AM	I didn't know where to put it, since the rules of the optimization challenge board stated not to use alternate rules, but this is for a "homebrew" class, and I wanted it posted as an optimization challenge. If one of you WizO mods reads this challenge, and thinks it meets the qualifications for posting, please move it to the Optimization Challenge board, and strip this paragraph out of the post. Thank you. Thanks to the EXTREMELY constructive comments & criticism when I posted it on the Classes board, as well as a suggestion to post it here, I present... :bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce: Just as the Fighter is the PC version of the Warrior Just as the Rogue is the PC version of the Expert Just as the Wizard is the PC version of the Hedge Wizard So is the Adventurer the PC version of the Commoner GAME RULE INFORMATION Adventurers have the following game statistics. Alignment: Any. Hit Die: D8. Class skills: All skills are considered class skills. Skill points at first level: (8+Int modifier) x 4. Skill points at each additional level: 8+Int modifier. Base Attack Fort Ref Will Level Bonus Save Save Save Special 1st +0 +1 +1 +1 Rapid Attainment 2nd +1 +2 +2 +2 3rd +2 +2 +2 +2 4th +3 +2 +2 +2 5th +3 +3 +3 +3 6th +4 +3 +3 +3 7th +5 +4 +4 +4 8th +6/+1 +4 +4 +4 9th +6/+1 +4 +4 +4 10th +7/+2 +5 +5 +5 11th +8/+3 +5 +5 +5 12th +9/+4 +6 +6 +6 13th +9/+4 +6 +6 +6 14th +10/+5 +6 +6 +6 15th +11/+6/+1 +7 +7 +7 16th +12/+7/+2 +7 +7 +7 17th +12/+7/+2 +8 +8 +8 18th +13/+8/+3 +8 +8 +8 19th +14/+9/+4 +8 +8 +8 20th +15/+10/+5 +9 +9 +9 CLASS FEATURES The following are class features for the Adventurer. Weapon and armor proficiency: Adventurers are proficient in all simple weapons, as well as with a single martial or exotic weapon of their choice. Adventurers are proficient with light armor, and either medium armor or shields. Rapid Attainment: Adventurers do not develop in any kind of specialized way. Instead, they develop their own natural abilities. Adventurers add their level to their character level for gaining feats, ability development, and prerequisites. Given the absense of new abilities, I shan't post the Epic Adventurer. NOTE: I am aware of the so-called "errors" in the class. I'm not forgetting anything, it's a class feature.
Caelic 07-22-06, 10:46 AM	What in the world does "Adventurers add their level to their character level for gaining feats, ability development, and prerequisites" mean? As written, it means that you count your adventurer level twice for these purposes (as your adventurer level is already subsumed into your character level.) Secondly, what does it mean for purposes of "prerequisites?" What kind of prerequisites? Prestige class prerequisites? How is that supposed to work? Do I simply add it for purposes of classes which require me to be X level (of which there are none, as far as I know?) Do I add it even to prerequisites it wouldn't normally meet? (For instance, would a 5th level adventurer meet the "5th level arcane caster" requisite?) This needs significant clarification before it's really possible to do anything with it.
kabof 07-22-06, 11:05 AM	I believe, for example, that an Adventurer 2/Warrior 2, could have Weapon Specialization, so?
baoban sith 07-22-06, 01:10 PM	There was a thread of this in classes, and I assumed that there would have been some editing between reposting it. The main issue is that this class can get epic feats by level 11. There was a list on that thread of applicable epic feats, and so one with more experience with epic should see if any of those feats are game breaking.
LordPendragon 07-22-06, 02:08 PM	The Rapid Attainment bonus is added to your character level (which is essentially counting Adventurer levels twice) for determining the prerequisites of anything that requires "character level X". This does not allow Weapon Specialization unless you have 4 Fighter levels, and does not qualify for arcane caster level requirements. The rest of Rapid Attainment means that for example, at level 6 an Adventurer would have had 3 stat increases due to character level advancement, and 5 feats; as opposed to the 1 stat and 3 feats a character would usually have by then.
Bikermattus 07-22-06, 02:50 PM	There was a thread of this in classes, and I assumed that there would have been some editing between reposting it. The main issue is that this class can get epic feats by level 11. There was a list on that thread of applicable epic feats, and so one with more experience with epic should see if any of those feats are game breaking. That's why I reposted it from HERE (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=665255). I don't know if it would be broken or not, so by posting it on the Optimization boards, I can see if it is, and thereby find out why, aside from that it SEEMS like it would be broken. As a side-note, I do realise that it's not as powerful as some of the other (even base) classes, even by level 20, but I need to compare with the same sorts of characters the Adventurer would get "lumped" with.
DavidWL 07-23-06, 12:50 AM	The line, "Adventurers add their level to their character level for gaining ... prerequisites." could be problematical. Anything that lets you take things "before you are supposed to" is dangerous. Otherwise, an extra feat every 3 levels and ability point every 2 is hardly game breaking -- compare it to the human paragon from UA. You get 1 less ability point, 2 less levels of spellcasting, and more skill points. (Roughly speaking). The Adventure ends up a little under powered. It isn't front-loaded at all, which is good. Best, David
Bikermattus 07-27-06, 12:46 AM	The line, "Adventurers add their level to their character level for gaining ... prerequisites." could be problematical. Anything that lets you take things "before you are supposed to" is dangerous. Otherwise, an extra feat every 3 levels and ability point every 2 is hardly game breaking -- compare it to the human paragon from UA. You get 1 less ability point, 2 less levels of spellcasting, and more skill points. (Roughly speaking). The Adventure ends up a little under powered. It isn't front-loaded at all, which is good. Best, David It may be dangerous to get things "before you are supposed to," but that's what balance against it being otherwise "underpowered." I posted it up here so that it could be tested to the limit, see how far overboard it can go. If the best anyone can do STILL doesn't measure up, I need to know that, too, so I can give it a (very) slight boost in the right direction.
DavidWL 07-28-06, 12:32 AM	Well, the problem is that if they ever use character level to limit access (which they don't do as a principle, but sometimes slip), then things will start to break. Off the top of my head, the only things which have character level requirements are leadership type feats (doesn't break the class), and epic feats (does break the class). However, you can never guarantee that they won't come out with a feat or class in the future which is balanced at level 12, but unbalanced at level 6. If you are willing to deal with this, then I would say the class is underpowered, and needs a bit of a boost. Best, David
Bikermattus 07-28-06, 12:58 AM	Well, the problem is that if they ever use character level to limit access (which they don't do as a principle, but sometimes slip), then things will start to break. Off the top of my head, the only things which have character level requirements are leadership type feats (doesn't break the class), and epic feats (does break the class). However, you can never guarantee that they won't come out with a feat or class in the future which is balanced at level 12, but unbalanced at level 6. If you are willing to deal with this, then I would say the class is underpowered, and needs a bit of a boost. Best, David So TEST IT! Use anything in the books, or as an otherwise balanced rule/feat listed in the forums, or possibly even bend the "level" call to cover BAB (but not pre-req's for another class, like weapon specialisation). I can't see everything that can happen, but so far, even the epic stuff can't seem to break it, considering how things have gone until then...
DavidWL 07-28-06, 05:59 AM	Ok. Start out with a +2 Cha race => 20 Cha. 25 Cha at leve 10. You could probably boost your leadership score enough to take Epic Leadership ... which is more interesting because of the followers than the cohort (because of the limit that the cohort be 2 levels less than the character). Also take "extra followers" from Heroes of Battle. A 10th level character gets followers of: 1st level 270 2nd level 26 3rd level 14 4th level 8 5th level 4 6th level 4 7th level 2 A little too good. Not horribly broken, but definitely over powered. Be a thri-keen. Take multi-weapon fighting and greater multiweapon fighting thne perfect multiweapon fighting. A few levels of fighter, and you can be making 12 attacks around level 13 or so. (Not counting the effects of magic). You'll also have lots of feats to spare. The reason it isn't more broken yet is because they often use caster level requirements, BAB requirements, & skill requirements. But in those rare times when they don't, the above happens. I'm sure there exists epic prestige class that you could qualify for which would also screw things up.
Phaxi 07-28-06, 07:11 AM	Thats one wierd saving throw table, try to stick with the standards.
Bikermattus 08-01-06, 06:18 PM	Start out with a +2 Cha race => 20 Cha. 25 Cha at leve 10. You could probably boost your leadership score enough to take Epic Leadership ... which is more interesting because of the followers than the cohort (because of the limit that the cohort be 2 levels less than the character). Also take "extra followers" from Heroes of Battle. A 10th level character gets followers of: 1st level 270 2nd level 26 3rd level 14 4th level 8 5th level 4 6th level 4 7th level 2 A little too good. Not horribly broken, but definitely over powered. Be a thri-keen. Take multi-weapon fighting and greater multiweapon fighting thne perfect multiweapon fighting. A few levels of fighter, and you can be making 12 attacks around level 13 or so. (Not counting the effects of magic). You'll also have lots of feats to spare. The reason it isn't more broken yet is because they often use caster level requirements, BAB requirements, & skill requirements. But in those rare times when they don't, the above happens. I'm sure there exists epic prestige class that you could qualify for which would also screw things up. Okay, now we're getting somewhere. The leadership just begins to get slightly strained once level 11 is reached, but before it, you can RP your way to an arbitrarily high Leadership score. With Epic Leadership, you might have some interresting situations, but, since you're the weak link in your army, moreso than any other class, this may or may not make you more powerful than the other classes. It most likely depends on the campaign, even interresting enough to allow such "possible abuse." The thri-kreen makes for an interresting possibility, worth working out to see if it's game-breaking, and I'll try to check it out myself. Remember, though, watch out for the XP penalty. Many games don't use the rule, but it's there for just such a situation. Thanks, though, for the input. I'll have to do some cross-checking, but at least you came up with a possibility I might not have. :D
Bikermattus 08-14-06, 09:16 PM	:bump: Aw, come on... please? I'd like to see more analysis... Though I checked on the Thri-Kreen, and it seems to be a problem issue only if the Fighter gets nerfed (though WHY nerf the weakest class, I don't know). Maybe the problem is just with the race... it's a bit of a grey area...