Post/Author/DateTime	Post
dryhte 10-12-03, 03:42 PM	Hi guys... I'd like some advice for a 3.5 ftr-sor char... (1 lev ftr, rest sor and a prestige class, probably) 28 point buy... what would I take as stat placement? I was thinking: str 10 dex 14 - plus feat 'weapon finesse' con 14 int 12 wis 8 cha 16 I daren't go lower in cha since the char will be essentially a spellcaster, not a fighter... and 12 int is mandatory since the (human) char wil need at least 4 maxed skills... I could also use some advice for spell choice. True strike is my nr. 1 choice, but what other spells could be important to a sorcerer - fighter? I need some ways to prevent him from being hit, and some others to allow him to do some damage Would you advise me to take 14 str and power attack in stead of 14 dex and finesse? and to find other ways than dex to get extra AC? Would you advise me to take more cha? less con?... Thanks for anyone's input!!! greetings, D.
PlasteredKittyLizard 10-12-03, 04:15 PM	So anyways, I'm in a good mood. Took me a goodly bit of searching to find it, thank PhaedrusXY for posting it on the new boards. This is prolly what you have in mind, and I've tested it personally - it works ;) iku rex fighting sorcerer since there are many possibilities to link to this build and many questions that can be answered with this i will follow grey muse who posted it in the favorite builds thread and do a repost. remember, it was not me who created this build and i dont think i had any influence on it. here we go: Comments (by grey muse): the build's weakness is dispelling/antimagic. A ring of counterspells: greater dispelling is good, better is a weapon with Spellblade: greater dispelling from MoF. Also, the hag is no longer a viable choice for polymporh; firbolg is your best bet now for melee ability. ======================================== ====== Fighting sorcerer: Stats: You should focus on improving your Con over Cha. Only Con is really important, since none of your spells rely exclusively on an enemy failing his saving throw and you'll be polymorphed to a bigger and stronger creature in most battles. Suggested 32 point buy Str 8 Dex 13 Con 16 Int 13 Wis 10 Cha 16 Get a Toad familiar. Multiclassing: Any class except Wizard (and to some degree Bard) is viable for multiclassing. But it'll be a difficult min/max decision, and in either case more than one lost caster level will really hurt. Spells known (PH, T&B, FRCS): Without your spells you're just a wimpy guy with an attitude. I've focused on melee power, so you may want to makes some changes for increased versatility, "power" and/or low-level survival. 1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8/9 5/5/4/4/4/3/3/3/3 1st(5): Mage Armor Shield True Strike Expeditious Retreat Enlarge 2nd(5): Create Magic Tattoo (FRCS) Bull's Strength Cat's Grace Alter Self Choke (T&B) 3rd(4): Haste Fly Greater Magic Weapon Nondetection 4th(4): Stoneskin Dimension Door Improved Invisibility Polymorph Other 5th(4): Teleport Ghostform Lesser Ironguard(FRCS) Rary's Telepathic Bond 6th(3): Tenser's Transformation True Seeing Greater Dispelling 7th(3): Limited Wish Spell Turning Energy Immunity(T&B) 8th(3): Mind Blank Iron Body Maze 9th(3): Shapechange Time Stop Chain Contingency Useful feats: Extend Spell is a must-have. Persistent Spell is mainly for the Persistent Shield. Empower Spell can improve Bull's Strength and Cat's Grace on high levels. Combat Reflexes/Expert Tactician is nice for someone who is almost always invisible. Ambidexterity/Two-Weapon Fighting will be useful if you go for the "traditional" quarterstaff, especially with two spell-storing ends. Expertise can be combined with Haste for a high AC. Improved trip works well with Enlarged, Bull's Strenght'ed sorcerers in Stone Giant shape. Arcane Preparation/Quicken Spell may just be worth it to save time in combat on higher levels. An exotic or martial weapon proficiency can come in handy. Still Spell can let a multi-classed sorcerer cast spells with (an animated) shield and (a mithral) full plate. Silent Spell might let you "buff" in silence before combat. Useful equipment: Ring(s) of Spell Storing (Dispel Magic/Greater Dispelling). You'll find that you are almost unkillable fully "buffed". Fear the dispel. Also, Magic of Faerun has a "Spellblade" weapon ability you may want to take a look at... Ghost Touch weapon. For use in Ghostform. Weapons with special abilities rather than "plusses". That's what Greater Magic Weapon is for. Cloak of Resistance. After 10th level you really leave the fighters in the dust. I'll give you a 12th level example character. Watch and learn young grasshopper... Half-Elf Sorcerer 12 "Spear-slayer" (No prestige classes to keep it simple) (Base / effective score in combat) Str 8 / 30 (+10) Dex 13 / 17 (+3) Con 17 / 18 (+4) (+8 for hit points) Int 12 Wis 8 Cha 16 Modifiers: Annis polymorph, +3 Con, +4 Con (Amulet), +5 Str (Bull's Strength), +5 Dex (Cat's Grace), +2 Con (Toad familiar) Hit points: 4 + (11*2.5) + (12*8) = 127 Saves: Fort +13, Ref +12, Will +12 Equipment (88000 gp) Ring of Counterspells (Dispel Magic) 4000 Ring of Deflection +2 8000 Amulet of Health +4 16000 Cloak of Resistance +4 16000 +1 Ghost Touch, Returning Shortspear 16300 Hat of Disguise 2000 Luckstone 10000 Boots of Elvenkind 2000 + misc (up to 13700 gp worth) Feats: 1,3,6,9,12 Combat Reflexes, Extend Spell, Expert Tactician, Empower Spell, Persistent Spell Spells known: 1st(5): Mage Armor, Shield, True Strike, Expeditious Retreat, Enlarge 2nd(5): Create Magic Tattoo (FRCS), Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace, Alter Self, Choke (T&B) 3rd(4): Haste, Fly, Greater Magic Weapon, Nondetection 4th(4): Stoneskin, Improved Invisibility, Polymorph Other 5th(4): Teleport, Ghostform 6th(3): Tenser's Transformation Spells available: 1/2/3/4/5/6 7/7/7/6/5/3 Spells in effect at all times when adventuring: 1st(2 of 7): 2 Mage Armor* 2nd(3 of 7): 2 Create Magic Tattoo, Cat's Grace* 3rd(2 of 7): 2 Greater Magic Weapon*, (Fly**) 4th(3 of 6): Extended Nondetection, 2 Empowered Bull's Strength*, (Stoneskin**), (Polymorph Other***), 5th(3 of 5): Extended Empowered Cat's Grace*, Persistent Shield, Persistent Expeditious Retreat 6th(0 of 3): * "Identical" spells - cast twice a day. ** Only lasts 2 hours, so they are cast before entering high-risk areas. *** Permanent (always on when adventuring) Sample combat stats against cannon fodder (no spells wasted): 10 ft. reach To hit: +6/+1 BAB, +1 Luck (Create Magic Tattoo), +2 Competence (Create Magic Tattoo), +10 (Str), +4 (Greater Magic Weapon), -1 (Large) = +22/+17 AC: 10 + 10 (Natural armor) + 3 (Dex) -1 (Large) + 2 (Ring of Deflection) + 4 (Mage Armor) = 28 (+7 [Shield spell]) Damage: 2d6 (Huge Shortspear) + 15 (Str) + 4 (Greater Magic Weapon) = 2d6 + 19 (This easily puts CR 12 NPC Fighters from the DMG in the "cannon fodder" category...) Fully buffed, BBEG: Fly, Extended Stoneskin, Haste, Improved Invisibility, Enlarge, Tenser's Transformation... You need a caster level check DC 27 to detect the character with divination spells (Nondetection). All creatures without some way to detect invisible creatures are now pretty much dead. Against dragons and similar creatures you add Ghostform to beat the Blindsight (and ignore armor). Add Choke as needed. 10 ft. reach, DR 10/+5 To hit: +12/+7/+2 BAB, +1 Luck (Create Magic Tattoo), +2 Competence (Create Magic Tattoo), +11 (Str), +4 (Greater Magic Weapon), -1 (Large), +2 (Invisible) + 1 (Flying to "higher ground") = +32/+32/+32/+27/+22 every round (Haste, Expert Tactician, full attack action) AC: 10 + 10 (Natural armor) + 3 (Dex) -1 (Large) + 2 (Ring of Deflection) + 4 (Mage Armor) +4 (Haste) = 32 (+7 [Shield spell]) Damage: 2d6 (Huge Shortspear) + 16 (Str) + 4 (Greater Magic Weapon) = 2d6 + 20 Um, yeah. Thats off the old boards. Take it, tweak it, enjoy it. Later, champ....
Hygric 10-12-03, 11:32 PM	You asked for 3.5, so just be aware that the above suggestions are for 3. Still mostly good though, with only a few minor tweaks needed. Definately pick up false life, the extra HP will help alot. Other than that, for classes, Ftr 1, Sor 6, and then a combo of eldritch knight from the DMG and whatever other PrC you want. And I would deffinately go the Str / Power Attack over the Dex / Finesse route. Maybe even pick up spring attack and be a true-striking, power attacking, great sword wielding, expeditous retreating, spring attacker. ;) Oh, and if you pick a decent number of your spells to be V only components, and rely on still spell for the others, there is nothing stopping you trundling around in full plate armour.
PhaedrusXY 10-13-03, 04:07 AM	If you have access to the Unnapproachable East book and don't mind being a half-elf or elf, the Master of the Yuirwood is a cool sorcerer prestige class. It has 3/4 BAB progression, some druid like abilities, and you get Cha to saves at level 9. I'd go ranger1/sorcX instead of fighter if you do this, though. It makes it easier to qualify for MotY. Also, two levels of Witch Hunter from Oriental Adventures is good for this type of character also. You lose 1 spellcaster level, but get Detect Evil at will, Cha to saves, full BAB for those two levels, and Smite Evil. Another class to consider is Sacred Exorcist. It will get you Turn Undead, which you can use with Divine Might (requires Power Attack) to add your Cha modifier to Damage and keep full caster progression. I can't remember if you can add Contemplative spellcaster levels to arcane classes. If so, it would be a good one also. You could pick the War domain and get access to Divine Power, which you could make persistant to get full fighter BAB. Both Sacred Exorcist and Contemplative are in Defenders of the Faith. Edit: Could go Sorc10/WitchHunter2/EldKnight6/SacEx2 BAB +14, caster level 18, Exorcism PrC domain, Turn Undead, Detect Evil at will, Kami's grace (Cha mod to saves), Smite Evil 1X/day, Proficient with all Martial and Simple Weapons, and all Armor Prereqs: Track; Cosmopolitan (Know: the Planes and Religion); Know: the Planes 7, Know: Arcane 10, Know: Religion 10
Prism 10-13-03, 07:12 AM	Originally posted by Hygric And I would deffinately go the Str / Power Attack over the Dex / Finesse route. Maybe even pick up spring attack and be a true-striking, power attacking, great sword wielding, expeditous retreating, spring attacker. ;) . That is certainly the way to go I agree. Due to the relatively low hit points and possibly AC of the fighter mage type spring attack combined with power attack, quickened true strikes, mirror images etc will all keep this character alive and not stuck in toe to toe combat
dryhte 10-13-03, 11:50 AM	Okay guys... thanks for your input. About the spell list... with 3.5 in mind, where many good buff spells are nerfed beyond help (shield: only 4 ac, haste: only one more attack, blah blah blah) would you still select the above spells? Another question: assuming I get the option to delay spellcasting one more level (so I'd be two levels behind instead of just the one fighter level) for the benefit of +2 charisma (or another ability) and one feat... would this be worth a delay in spellcasting/caster level? I think it might... but I'm not so sure :)
jonas_lind 10-13-03, 12:00 PM	That would most definetely NOT be worth it. Consider what else you might be getting for that level. If for example you take 2 levels of paladin, you'll be getting +cha to saves (a huge boon IMO), d10hp+con (which is quite essential for a fighter-mage who are notoriosly low on hp), +1bab (also a neat thing) and a wee bit of lay on hands. Of if you take the extra level of figher, you'll be getting a bonus feat anyways, and I'd take d10+con hp and +1bab in comparison to +2increase to cha any day of the week. As for spells...you might want to reconsider the buffs since the duration is shorter, and bump alter self up to first choice at 2nd level. jonas
dryhte 10-13-03, 12:59 PM	em... have you read the 3.5 alter self description? when playing a human, you can turn into any humanoid... but that's it! kindly point out the use for this spell, now that it's been rewritten ;) Anyway, my first choice will definitely be mirror image... Does anyone think the +2 cha (hey, I think 16 to 18 is a big bump) might be worth a delay in spellcasting? Thanks! D.
PhaedrusXY 10-13-03, 01:10 PM	Originally posted by dryhte em... have you read the 3.5 alter self description? when playing a human, you can turn into any humanoid... but that's it! kindly point out the use for this spell, now that it's been rewritten ;) Anyway, my first choice will definitely be mirror image... Does anyone think the +2 cha (hey, I think 16 to 18 is a big bump) might be worth a delay in spellcasting? Thanks! D. How are you getting a +2 cha for a level? From a template or something? I'd have to know more about it, since just a +2 to Cha certainly isn't worth a +1 LA. And as to Alter Self, alot of people advocate the use of it to change into forms with decent natural armor ratings, like troglydytes and lizard folk, for a combat form.
dryhte 10-13-03, 01:18 PM	just a houserule... a 3 level 'class' with d8 hps, rogue BAB, wiz saves , and a feat and +2 to a stat. Two of the three levels give +1 caster level.
jonas_lind 10-13-03, 01:18 PM	As stated you can use Alter self to get natural armor...lizard man and troglodyte gives something in the area of a +5 bonus to AC due to natural armor, that is a virtual lifesaver in combat, and shouldn't be missed. And AS (IIRC) lasts for 10mins/lvl. A bump from 16 to 18 gives you what. One more 4th level spell, and +1DC to saves against spells...quite inferior IMO compared to a level in just about any class. jonas
dryhte 10-14-03, 04:53 AM	To the one who suggested to go the Str way and take dodge/mobility/spring attack: impossible :) prereq 13 dex... So I'm stuck with a greatsword wielding sorcerer in battle, or with a rapier wielding, spring attacking sorcerer who does virtually no damage. He must still be lev 9 to cast poly self, too... Still, the greatsword wielding sorcerer has a coolness factor that can't be overlooked... I might go for spring attack/finesse, and keep the greatsword for when I'm in troll form (much later on)
Hygric 10-14-03, 08:51 AM	Ah. Very true. I had overlooked your stat picks and had a brain fart. Me bad. :(
baoban sith 10-14-03, 09:18 AM	It sounds like you were talking about racial levels, which I would not recommend. With a fighter/sorcerer character, you are already likely to lose at least 2 spellcasting levels, and three is out of the question. One can use witch hunter to get weapon access, dropping the fighter level, but that is problematic as well (need +5 BaB) Also level 1 of eldritch knight makes you lose a level, which is one of the better PrC's for a fighter/sorcerer character IMO. There are many ways you can use the 2 non spellcaster levels, but if you want eldritch knight, then racial levels are out.
dryhte 10-14-03, 09:39 AM	So you'd say losing 2 caster levels overall is okay, but no more than two? Let's take another look at stat picks then... just for some ideas on how to handle this guy. 28 point buy means: 8 10 12 14 14 16. I can have a greatsword/power attack type with str 14, dex 10 (yuck... low!), con 14 (for hitpoints and fort save), int 12 (for the skills I need), wis 8 and cha 16; or a finesse/dodge/mobility/spring attack type with same stats but 10 or 8 on str and 14 on dex Any ideas on low level (around lev 6) battle tactics for the power attacking type? I have 3 more feats to spend - probably weapon focus and two others) And any ideas on ways to make the dex guy do at least _some_ damage? probably touch attacks rather than finesse weapons...
dryhte 10-14-03, 09:54 AM	Or... I might go for a very radical change and start with 14 cha only. The only drawback to this would be that the char would not be able to cast 9th level spells at level 18... but he wouldn't anyway since he misses out on at least one caster level. This would mean the character can have AND the spring attack tree, AND greatsword/power attack... and 2 more AC or 3 more damage per hit than the other two options... He would have a little less spells to cast, though... *in doubt*
dryhte 10-15-03, 08:48 AM	bump... good or bad idea? (fighter/sorcerer with stat placement: 14 14 14 12 8 14 and spring attack tree and power attack)
jonas_lind 10-15-03, 08:57 AM	Go for it. You don't need that high cha anyways, and since you're sorc, missing a couple of bonus-spells due to lower stats won't make your eyes bleed. I'd ditch the rapier as well.. Any way you cut it, you are going to have bad AC and bad HP compared to a fighter (unless buffed a lot, which you can't always count on). You're only strength here is to deal a sufficient amount of damage, to disable you opponents, so that your offense becomes your defense (barbarian tactics, but to a lesser degree). Having Spring attack would _surely_ be nice with powerattack and truestrike ! in...WHAM..and out again. That will save your ass more than once, I'm sure. So all in all, I think you'd be cool with that. Another way of course would be to grap a reach weapon...allowing you to strike from second rank...less feat intensive, but also less cool :) jonas