Advice for a Spellsword [Archive] - Wizards Community

Advice for a Spellsword [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Anguirus23
12-13-04, 06:09 PM Greetings, all. I've been a lurker here a few times but have never posted on this particular board before, so you'll pardon me if I don't quite "know the ropes" in terms of optimization, especially since it's usually not my top priority. However, I did read the "Character Optimization: Gish" thread and was incredibly impressed by it. There was a lot of thought and effort put into there, and it's already helped me a lot. Now, to the situation:

We sort of made our "dream characters" (I'm a little leery of using really good ideas/concepts in our typical games because they don't usually last long) for a game in the World's Largest Dungeon. I was fascinated by the Spellsword class in CW and was interested in building a character around that. For flavor reasons, and because I wanted to channel spells like vampiric touch and enervation through my weapon, I went with necromancer as the primary arcanist, starting off with fighter. At first I just liked the conept and resolved to play it by ear, but I found myself planning out feats and spells for his next several future levels and then becoming really interested in what an optimal build would look like. So, here's what I have so far (level three) and what I've planned:

LN Human Str 16 Dex 14 Con 20 (amulet of health +2) Int 16 Wis 12 Cha 12
1 Fighter Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Point Blank Shot
2 Necromancer Scribe Scroll
3 Necromancer Improved Initiative
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
4 Necromancer (+1 Dex)
5 Fighter Quick Draw
6 Necromancer Fell Weaken
7 Spellsword
8 Spellsword Still Spell (+1 Dex)
9 Spellsword Arcane Strike
10 Spellsword
11 Spellsword
12 Spellsword Empower Spell (+1 Int)
13 Spellsword
14 Spellsword
15 Spellsword Quicken Spell
16 Spellsword (+1 Int)
17 Necromancer Silent Spell
18 Necromancer Innate Spell
19 Necromancer
20 Necromancer Craft Staff (I really don't know what to do with this slot)

Sources: PHB, Tome and Blood, Complete Warrior, Libris Mortis

Finishes with 13th caster level (seventh level spells) and +16 base attack... not as high as I've seen on the gish thread, but hey, that's why I'm asking. And it does "qualify" for shadow mage's definition of gish.

A couple points (method to my madness, if you will).

I wanted to avoid the Eldritch Knight. It's usually used to "close out" builds I see, but I just don't like the class because it seems bland and sort of a "patch" for a difficult multiclass choice. Still, I'm willing to give it a shot if that's the best way to go...my principles only extend so far. :P

I would like to add actual Necromancer levels if I can because my character uses the "Undead Companion" alternate rules from Unearthed Arcana and said companion gets stronger with Necromancer levels...although just having so many Spellsword levels already kinda hoses its progression. I also like wizard bonus feats...but as you can see by the end there I wasn't quite sure what to do anyway.

He tends to use a guisarme to trip big foes in combat, using a masterwork battle axe up close. Basically, he would use a martial tripping weapon and up close whatever fancy weapon he can procure. He would probably focus on touch spells, rays, and to a lesser exent self-buffing, but there is already a cleric, a straight wizard, and a thief-illusionist in the party that I can get backup from (We're calling ourselves the Arcane Army, there's only a single non-caster right now and he might become one. Our website is here: www.freewebs.com/worldslargestdungeon )

So there you have it. Tear it apart. I also have the Draconomicon as a resource. After Christmas I should have access to the Complete Arcane, so feel free to suggest stuff from there.
Blade2718
12-13-04, 06:39 PM I would definitely skip Still Spell and just use lighter armor. Spellsword gives you a nice fat reduction in ASF; you can pull off a mithril breastplate, or possibly, even +1 twilight mithril plate mail. Twilight is an enhancement from the Book of Exalted Deeds which reduces the ASF of an armor by 10% (and has no exalted requirements). A spell storing weapon might be of use as well, allowing you to channel yet another enervation per hit.

Why do you have Point Blank Shot if you're a melee-focused gish?
Eyeless Blond
12-13-04, 06:39 PM I wanted to avoid the Eldritch Knight. It's usually used to "close out" builds I see, but I just don't like the class because it seems bland and sort of a "patch" for a difficult multiclass choice. Still, I'm willing to give it a shot if that's the best way to go...my principles only extend so far. :P
Well... that's sorta the point, really. It's not really a Prestige CLass in the sense that you're joining a new organization or anything; it's just a way to combine the flavor of taking fighter and spellcaster levels simultaneusly without ending up too weak. It has no flavor by itself, but sorta absorbs the flavor from the fighter and mage classes you took before it.

(Edit): Oh, and take Practiced Spellcaster as one of your low-level feats; it raises your caster level by up to +4, which is really good for stuff like vampiric touch.
Anguirus23
12-13-04, 07:06 PM Point Blank Shot is for rays and such.

I was interested in taking Innate Spell, but I see now that my caster level isn't high enough for it anyway. In that case I can drop Silent Spell (I could replace it with Fell Drain from Libris Mortis) as well and take Empower Spell at eighth. I don't have Practiced Spellcaster in a book yet but now that you mention it I very much like the idea. That can go in place of Fell Weaken. Innate Spell (what was I thinking? It doesn't work at all) could be replaced by Craft Magic Arms and Armor maybe? Ordinarily I'd take that in a heartbeat but resources might get a little scarce down here in the dungeon...

If I could get Precise Shot in there reasonably early it would be great, but I"m not sure how I'd swing that, or if it's even worth it.

Thanks, any more ideas?
ninjarabbit
12-13-04, 07:14 PM My opinion:

I wouldn't go past level 5 of spellsword, the abilities aren't worth the loss of CL imo, even though dual channel rocks it's not worth the addional loss of CL.

I'd go fighter2/necro4/SS5/eldritchknight9 for a BAB of 18 and CL 15, fighter1/necro6/SS3/EK10 for BAB 17 and CL 17 or fighter1/necro6/SS5/EK8 for a BAB 17 and CL 16.
JosephKell
12-13-04, 07:30 PM Do you want to be a Fighter that can cast spells or a Specialist Wizard (Necromancer) that swings a sword?

Fighter 2/Necromancer 4/Spellsword 5/Eldritch Knight 9 is a Fighter that can cast spells. The key here is to lose as few BAB as possible.

If you want to be a Specialist Wizard that swings a sword, then do whatever you have to to not lose a single increase to your spells per day. Ways to do this are actually using feats to get the proficiencies you need.

Necromancer 8/Eldritch Knight 10/Dragonslayer 1/Spellsword 1 barely manages to squeeze in BAB +16, complete wizard casting. And only three feats are spoken for (Militia, Iron Will, Dodge).
Anguirus23
12-13-04, 07:47 PM Necromancer 8/Eldritch Knight 10/Dragonslayer 1/Spellsword 1 barely manages to squeeze in BAB +16, complete wizard casting. And only three feats are spoken for (Militia, Iron Will, Dodge).

Wow! I suppose Militia gives you the Armor Proficiency you need, is that in the FRCS or is it something else I've missed? Anyway, I'm not terribly interested in one-level dips (I'm one of those annoying sots who wants my character to have a reason for everything), but regardless, I'm very intrigued by that. Sadly, it's a little late to try it now.

But to answer your question, I am really more of a fighter who adds in destructive spells and buffs. I am very interested in getting to multiple channel spell...this would be a character who would identify himself as a "spellsword." I'm starting to think it's a better and better idea to just go for eldritch knight instead of the necromancer levels at the end. So that would basically get me the BAB of +18 and keeping the caster level of 13. I'm not the party's primary caster by any means, so that might be the way to go.

Thanks for all the comments, more are welcome.
Blade2718
12-13-04, 08:00 PM Wow! I suppose Militia gives you the Armor Proficiency you need, is that in the FRCS or is it something else I've missed? Anyway, I'm not terribly interested in one-level dips (I'm one of those annoying sots who wants my character to have a reason for everything), but regardless, I'm very intrigued by that. Sadly, it's a little late to try it now.Militia gives you full martial weapon proficiencies. Which you get anyway from Dragonslayer.
Anguirus23
12-13-04, 08:13 PM Oh, I see. You would need Dragonslayer to get into Spellsword...but that works.
JosephKell
12-14-04, 03:05 PM the big caster worked like this: Militia is to get into EK earlier, so that you can get 2 more BAB sooner to get into Dragonslayer to get into Spellsword. Got it?

Basically at level 10 it would be Necro 6/EK 2/Dragonslayer 1/Spellsword 1.

It also seems worth nothing that using Multiple Channel Spell uses up 2 of your Channel Spells per day.
webgear68
12-14-04, 04:04 PM use eldritch knight to get the extra feat and channelspell and arcane strike go arm in arm for a fighter mage my dm's characters dealing over 100 pionts of damage per hit with a lizardman sorcerer, eldritch knight, spellsword but i don't know the specific build
Anguirus23
12-14-04, 08:21 PM the big caster worked like this: Militia is to get into EK earlier, so that you can get 2 more BAB sooner to get into Dragonslayer to get into Spellsword. Got it?

Basically at level 10 it would be Necro 6/EK 2/Dragonslayer 1/Spellsword 1.

It also seems worth nothing that using Multiple Channel Spell uses up 2 of your Channel Spells per day.

Noted and logged...but if I just wanted the best gish possible there are any number of truly excellent builds (including many of yours) I could just rip off. What I'm interested in is getting a lot out of it while still having ten levels of spellsword, because that's just the character I'm interested in making.
Timespike
12-15-04, 02:18 AM If you're trying to balance the combat and spellcasting capabilities pretty evenly, try this:

Fighter 4/Wizard 4/Spellsword 10/Eldritch Knight 2

BAB is 18, caster level is 10 (5th-level spells) and you wind up with a lot of feats. It's not awe-inspiringly powerful, but getting past a GM should be a cinch, and it should have sufficiently high spellcasting prowess for your needs.

Another option is this:

1 Human Paragon 1
2 Fighter 1
3 Wizard 1
4 Human Paragon 2
5 Human Paragon 3
6 Fighter 2
7 Spellsword 1
8 Spellsword 2
9 Spellsword 3
10 Spellsword 4
11 Spellsword 5
12 Spellsword 6
13 Spellsword 7
14 Spellsword 8
15 Spellsword 9
16 Spellsword 10
17 Eldritch Knight 1
18 Eldritch Knight 2
19 Eldritch Knight 3
20 Eldritch Knight 4

BAB is 18, your caster level is 11 (level 6 spells) and if you take tumble as your adaptive learning skill, you can even be a highly-mobile, agile warrior.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Anguirus23 12-13-04, 06:09 PM	Greetings, all. I've been a lurker here a few times but have never posted on this particular board before, so you'll pardon me if I don't quite "know the ropes" in terms of optimization, especially since it's usually not my top priority. However, I did read the "Character Optimization: Gish" thread and was incredibly impressed by it. There was a lot of thought and effort put into there, and it's already helped me a lot. Now, to the situation: We sort of made our "dream characters" (I'm a little leery of using really good ideas/concepts in our typical games because they don't usually last long) for a game in the World's Largest Dungeon. I was fascinated by the Spellsword class in CW and was interested in building a character around that. For flavor reasons, and because I wanted to channel spells like vampiric touch and enervation through my weapon, I went with necromancer as the primary arcanist, starting off with fighter. At first I just liked the conept and resolved to play it by ear, but I found myself planning out feats and spells for his next several future levels and then becoming really interested in what an optimal build would look like. So, here's what I have so far (level three) and what I've planned: LN Human Str 16 Dex 14 Con 20 (amulet of health +2) Int 16 Wis 12 Cha 12 1 Fighter Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Point Blank Shot 2 Necromancer Scribe Scroll 3 Necromancer Improved Initiative -------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4 Necromancer (+1 Dex) 5 Fighter Quick Draw 6 Necromancer Fell Weaken 7 Spellsword 8 Spellsword Still Spell (+1 Dex) 9 Spellsword Arcane Strike 10 Spellsword 11 Spellsword 12 Spellsword Empower Spell (+1 Int) 13 Spellsword 14 Spellsword 15 Spellsword Quicken Spell 16 Spellsword (+1 Int) 17 Necromancer Silent Spell 18 Necromancer Innate Spell 19 Necromancer 20 Necromancer Craft Staff (I really don't know what to do with this slot) Sources: PHB, Tome and Blood, Complete Warrior, Libris Mortis Finishes with 13th caster level (seventh level spells) and +16 base attack... not as high as I've seen on the gish thread, but hey, that's why I'm asking. And it does "qualify" for shadow mage's definition of gish. A couple points (method to my madness, if you will). I wanted to avoid the Eldritch Knight. It's usually used to "close out" builds I see, but I just don't like the class because it seems bland and sort of a "patch" for a difficult multiclass choice. Still, I'm willing to give it a shot if that's the best way to go...my principles only extend so far. :P I would like to add actual Necromancer levels if I can because my character uses the "Undead Companion" alternate rules from Unearthed Arcana and said companion gets stronger with Necromancer levels...although just having so many Spellsword levels already kinda hoses its progression. I also like wizard bonus feats...but as you can see by the end there I wasn't quite sure what to do anyway. He tends to use a guisarme to trip big foes in combat, using a masterwork battle axe up close. Basically, he would use a martial tripping weapon and up close whatever fancy weapon he can procure. He would probably focus on touch spells, rays, and to a lesser exent self-buffing, but there is already a cleric, a straight wizard, and a thief-illusionist in the party that I can get backup from (We're calling ourselves the Arcane Army, there's only a single non-caster right now and he might become one. Our website is here: www.freewebs.com/worldslargestdungeon ) So there you have it. Tear it apart. I also have the Draconomicon as a resource. After Christmas I should have access to the Complete Arcane, so feel free to suggest stuff from there.
Blade2718 12-13-04, 06:39 PM	I would definitely skip Still Spell and just use lighter armor. Spellsword gives you a nice fat reduction in ASF; you can pull off a mithril breastplate, or possibly, even +1 twilight mithril plate mail. Twilight is an enhancement from the Book of Exalted Deeds which reduces the ASF of an armor by 10% (and has no exalted requirements). A spell storing weapon might be of use as well, allowing you to channel yet another enervation per hit. Why do you have Point Blank Shot if you're a melee-focused gish?
Eyeless Blond 12-13-04, 06:39 PM	I wanted to avoid the Eldritch Knight. It's usually used to "close out" builds I see, but I just don't like the class because it seems bland and sort of a "patch" for a difficult multiclass choice. Still, I'm willing to give it a shot if that's the best way to go...my principles only extend so far. :P Well... that's sorta the point, really. It's not really a Prestige CLass in the sense that you're joining a new organization or anything; it's just a way to combine the flavor of taking fighter and spellcaster levels simultaneusly without ending up too weak. It has no flavor by itself, but sorta absorbs the flavor from the fighter and mage classes you took before it. (Edit): Oh, and take Practiced Spellcaster as one of your low-level feats; it raises your caster level by up to +4, which is really good for stuff like vampiric touch.
Anguirus23 12-13-04, 07:06 PM	Point Blank Shot is for rays and such. I was interested in taking Innate Spell, but I see now that my caster level isn't high enough for it anyway. In that case I can drop Silent Spell (I could replace it with Fell Drain from Libris Mortis) as well and take Empower Spell at eighth. I don't have Practiced Spellcaster in a book yet but now that you mention it I very much like the idea. That can go in place of Fell Weaken. Innate Spell (what was I thinking? It doesn't work at all) could be replaced by Craft Magic Arms and Armor maybe? Ordinarily I'd take that in a heartbeat but resources might get a little scarce down here in the dungeon... If I could get Precise Shot in there reasonably early it would be great, but I"m not sure how I'd swing that, or if it's even worth it. Thanks, any more ideas?
ninjarabbit 12-13-04, 07:14 PM	My opinion: I wouldn't go past level 5 of spellsword, the abilities aren't worth the loss of CL imo, even though dual channel rocks it's not worth the addional loss of CL. I'd go fighter2/necro4/SS5/eldritchknight9 for a BAB of 18 and CL 15, fighter1/necro6/SS3/EK10 for BAB 17 and CL 17 or fighter1/necro6/SS5/EK8 for a BAB 17 and CL 16.
JosephKell 12-13-04, 07:30 PM	Do you want to be a Fighter that can cast spells or a Specialist Wizard (Necromancer) that swings a sword? Fighter 2/Necromancer 4/Spellsword 5/Eldritch Knight 9 is a Fighter that can cast spells. The key here is to lose as few BAB as possible. If you want to be a Specialist Wizard that swings a sword, then do whatever you have to to not lose a single increase to your spells per day. Ways to do this are actually using feats to get the proficiencies you need. Necromancer 8/Eldritch Knight 10/Dragonslayer 1/Spellsword 1 barely manages to squeeze in BAB +16, complete wizard casting. And only three feats are spoken for (Militia, Iron Will, Dodge).
Anguirus23 12-13-04, 07:47 PM	Necromancer 8/Eldritch Knight 10/Dragonslayer 1/Spellsword 1 barely manages to squeeze in BAB +16, complete wizard casting. And only three feats are spoken for (Militia, Iron Will, Dodge). Wow! I suppose Militia gives you the Armor Proficiency you need, is that in the FRCS or is it something else I've missed? Anyway, I'm not terribly interested in one-level dips (I'm one of those annoying sots who wants my character to have a reason for everything), but regardless, I'm very intrigued by that. Sadly, it's a little late to try it now. But to answer your question, I am really more of a fighter who adds in destructive spells and buffs. I am very interested in getting to multiple channel spell...this would be a character who would identify himself as a "spellsword." I'm starting to think it's a better and better idea to just go for eldritch knight instead of the necromancer levels at the end. So that would basically get me the BAB of +18 and keeping the caster level of 13. I'm not the party's primary caster by any means, so that might be the way to go. Thanks for all the comments, more are welcome.
Blade2718 12-13-04, 08:00 PM	Wow! I suppose Militia gives you the Armor Proficiency you need, is that in the FRCS or is it something else I've missed? Anyway, I'm not terribly interested in one-level dips (I'm one of those annoying sots who wants my character to have a reason for everything), but regardless, I'm very intrigued by that. Sadly, it's a little late to try it now.Militia gives you full martial weapon proficiencies. Which you get anyway from Dragonslayer.
Anguirus23 12-13-04, 08:13 PM	Oh, I see. You would need Dragonslayer to get into Spellsword...but that works.
JosephKell 12-14-04, 03:05 PM	the big caster worked like this: Militia is to get into EK earlier, so that you can get 2 more BAB sooner to get into Dragonslayer to get into Spellsword. Got it? Basically at level 10 it would be Necro 6/EK 2/Dragonslayer 1/Spellsword 1. It also seems worth nothing that using Multiple Channel Spell uses up 2 of your Channel Spells per day.
webgear68 12-14-04, 04:04 PM	use eldritch knight to get the extra feat and channelspell and arcane strike go arm in arm for a fighter mage my dm's characters dealing over 100 pionts of damage per hit with a lizardman sorcerer, eldritch knight, spellsword but i don't know the specific build
Anguirus23 12-14-04, 08:21 PM	the big caster worked like this: Militia is to get into EK earlier, so that you can get 2 more BAB sooner to get into Dragonslayer to get into Spellsword. Got it? Basically at level 10 it would be Necro 6/EK 2/Dragonslayer 1/Spellsword 1. It also seems worth nothing that using Multiple Channel Spell uses up 2 of your Channel Spells per day. Noted and logged...but if I just wanted the best gish possible there are any number of truly excellent builds (including many of yours) I could just rip off. What I'm interested in is getting a lot out of it while still having ten levels of spellsword, because that's just the character I'm interested in making.
Timespike 12-15-04, 02:18 AM	If you're trying to balance the combat and spellcasting capabilities pretty evenly, try this: Fighter 4/Wizard 4/Spellsword 10/Eldritch Knight 2 BAB is 18, caster level is 10 (5th-level spells) and you wind up with a lot of feats. It's not awe-inspiringly powerful, but getting past a GM should be a cinch, and it should have sufficiently high spellcasting prowess for your needs. Another option is this: 1 Human Paragon 1 2 Fighter 1 3 Wizard 1 4 Human Paragon 2 5 Human Paragon 3 6 Fighter 2 7 Spellsword 1 8 Spellsword 2 9 Spellsword 3 10 Spellsword 4 11 Spellsword 5 12 Spellsword 6 13 Spellsword 7 14 Spellsword 8 15 Spellsword 9 16 Spellsword 10 17 Eldritch Knight 1 18 Eldritch Knight 2 19 Eldritch Knight 3 20 Eldritch Knight 4 BAB is 18, your caster level is 11 (level 6 spells) and if you take tumble as your adaptive learning skill, you can even be a highly-mobile, agile warrior.