Post/Author/DateTime	Post
greatwhiterat 01-06-07, 10:55 PM	Okay, context first: It looks like I'll be playing a game with three players and a DM who haven't played 3.0 or 3.5 as well as a pair who haven't played D&D at all. Nobody but me is very familiar with the rules yet (and I have very little experience actually *playing*), so we're limiting things to core-only for simplicity's sake. As of right now, it looks like we'll have... A rogue with treacherous tendencies (he's revealed that he intends to steal from party-members), An evil sorcerer who sounds like he's willing to play nice for the time being, An archery-focussed ranger (likely an elf), A half-orc barbarian, A half-orc monk, and me. We'll be using a 28 point buy and starting at level 3. I'd love to play a rogue with a background in military interrogation who fights with a pair of kukri, but based on the party, it looks like I'll be most useful as a cleric. Would it be practical to have a party without clerics? Will a few wands of cure light wounds suffice? Assuming no... If I'm going to play a cleric, I'd prefer to play a dwarf who's able to fight at the front: Str 14 Dex 12 Con 14 Int 14 Wis 15 Cha 6 Domains: War, Travel (I'm going to try to talk my DM into letting me use both) 1 Combat Expertise 3 Improved Trip 6 Power Attack 9 Quicken Spell 12 Improved Critical (whatever my War domain's weapon focus is in) 15 Spell Penetration 18 Greater Spell Penetration Are there more appropriate feats to take as a melee cleric in core? Taking as a given that the current rogue won't be very trustworthy, it seems wise to be sure I'll be able to interact with NPCs. Would ranks in diplomacy with my terrible charisma modifier suffice, or should I rebuild the character? If so, I probably won't have the points to fight hand-to-hand; would a summoning/knowledge build be more appropriate? Cleric7/Thaumaturge3/Loremaster10? Thanks for any help in advance.
Sharp_Claw 01-06-07, 11:05 PM	yea - go with the cleric. I've played games w/o 'em, and wands get used up FAST - especially in a 6-person party like yours. I cant provide many suggestions build-wise b/c I'm unfamiliar w/core-only (although I can direct you here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=133833) if you want a great thread to look through), but I will say this: having -2 charisma bonus shouldnt stop you from diplomacy-ing. ranks scale much faster than ability score bonuses; the only thing you'll need to do to make yourself viable is splurge a bit on cha-boosting items, which you'll have money for soon enough (even a +2 cloak would help).
fnord 01-06-07, 11:26 PM	You might be able to get by as a druid instead of a cleric. You get almost as much healing (and can still activate wands), and making a melee fighter (at least above level 5) is much less attribute intensive. Try to take pleasure in your Animal Companion's melee ability at low levels; you'll be able to hold your own once you get Wild Shape. If you want to stick with Cleric, your Diplomacy ranks should let you do OK, despite the -2 Cha mod. I'd drop Int to 12 or 10, though. You shouldn't need to max out that many skills. I'd make the spread: Str 14 Dex 12 Con 14 or 16 Int 12 or 10 Wis 16 Cha 6 Also, especially since this appears to be an evil campaign, inform the rest of the party that they will be expected to chip in for Wands of CLW and Pearls of Power if they expect to get healed. the only thing you'll need to do to make yourself viable is splurge a bit on cha-boosting items, which you'll have money for soon enough (even a +2 cloak would help). A circlet of Persuasion is a better buy, for boosting skills.
Hanniball 01-06-07, 11:35 PM	Would it be practical to have a party without clerics? Will a few wands of cure light wounds suffice? A party without a Cleric can still be very effective (Druids make great healers). A party without any reliable amount of healing will probably not last very long. As sharp_claw noted, your group will burn through wands faster than you can even say 'hit points'. I'd strongly suggest someone play a Cleric or Druid character. Are there more appropriate feats to take as a melee cleric in core? Even though Persistant Spell is not available, I'm still a huge fan of Extend Spell. A 14 hour Magic Vestment at 7th level is nothing to sneeze at. I'd replace Improved Critical with it, but YMMV. Would ranks in diplomacy with my terrible charisma modifier suffice, or should I rebuild the character? Leave your charisma where it is and just max out your ranks. Grab 5 ranks in Sense Motive and Know (Nobility and Royalty) for a +4 synergy bonus and you're good to go. Either way...just my 2 cp
nittanytbone 01-06-07, 11:55 PM	Having a dedicated healer is fairly essential with a large group of novice players. Yes, wands of CLW work; however, sometimes you need to remove status problems (Cure Disease, Neutralize Poison) and so on. And you can't beat a dedicated divine caster for pure healing power. I like clerics a lot. I also end up with core-only settings (or core + complete) pretty often. So I'm fairly familiar with them. These are my three rules of making a divine caster that doesn't suck: 1) Thou shalt not lose caster levels unless you really know what you're doing. 2) Thou shalt start with wisdom of at least 15, so that you can cast high level spells "on time" and get bonus spells. 3) Thou shalt not play a race that has LA +1 or greater. Stick to the core races, or perhaps a goblin shaman or such if you are masochistic. If you follow those three rules, you might not be awesome, but you won't suck, at least. A few other considerations: Turn Undead. Turning Undead is fairly weak unless you're using it to power Divine Feats. In Core-Only, they don't exist. So dumping CHA isn't a bad idea, especially with 28 point buy. On the other hand, sometimes it is really nice to be able to get rid of undead, and the only way to ensure you have any chance of that is by NOT multiclassing into something like Thaumaturgist. If you plan on sticking straight cleric, pick domains that scale with your level (Like Travel, which has a granted power based on cleric level). Healing. Clerics make the best low level healers. Once you hit level 7, Druids can spontaneously summon Unicorns, and they become excellent healers as well. If you're playing from low levels up, I suggest a cleric. If you're starting at higher level or if you aren't a team player (or really dislike being a walking band-aid), a druid is fine, and more versatile to boot. Races: The human's bonus feat and skills are particularly attractive for clerics, who are feat and skill starved. Dwarves as usual are an attractive choice for the heavy armor wearing defensive melee type. Spells: Enlarge Person, Divine Favor, Divine Power, and Righteous Might are your bread and butter for a battle cleric. Just for giggles, let me suggest a few other setups briefly: *Melee Smash! Cleric of Kord (War and Strength). Offensive damage output. *Cleric Archer! Elvish Cleric (Elf and War, or Elf and Time). Excellent if you can get the domains, which are not core, but are on the WOTC website. *Tank! If you can get it in, see if your DM will allow you to use the Racial Substitution levels from Races of Stone. They are good for dwarvish tanks who dump CHA in a non-Divine Metamagic type setting. Feat wise, I'd stay away from the combat expertise chain. It is INT intensive (INT is a dump stat for clerics), clerics don't have access to a good tripping weapon (halberds, flails, etc), clerics don't need the extra AC (you can be in platemail with a shield if you want, and have excellent defensive spells). Also, you're feat-starved, which means focus on the essentials (power attack, for one; extend spell is also good for making your buffs last longer, and quicken spell at higher levels for Quickened Divine Favor).
fnord 01-06-07, 11:59 PM	Even though Persistant Spell is not available, I'm still a huge fan of Extend Spell. A 14 hour Magic Vestment at 7th level is nothing to sneeze at. I'd replace Improved Critical with it, but YMMV. Aha! I knew I was forgetting a useful Core feat. Seconded. I'd replace Combat Expertise and Improved Trip with Eschew Materials and Extend Spell, myself. Eschew Materials is especially helpful if the "enterprising" Rogue decided that making off with spell component pouches along with your other valuables would help him get away. Just make sure to carry plenty of Holy Symbols.
greatwhiterat 01-07-07, 12:46 AM	Thanks for the useful advice, everyone! I'm really enjoying this druid idea. I wouldn't be losing my spontaneous healing by playing evil, will have great minions to send out to kill/die for me, and have an excuse to have decent intelligence (I don't like the idea of coming up with... ideas and not being able to use them because my character would be too... slow). :D This would be a neutral evil human... Str 8 Dex 8 Con 14 Int 14 Wis 16 Cha 14 1 Spell Focus (Conjuration), Augment Summoning 3 Extend Spell 6 Natural Spell 9 Quicken Spell 12 Empower Spell (or Track or something else?) 15 Spell Penetration 18 Greater Spell Penetration I'll try to keep... Concentration, Diplomacy, Spot, Listen, Survival, Knowledge (Nature), and Spellcraft... maxed out. I'll try to stay away from the fighting and let my minions and party members handle it, wildshaping when necessary. So, I'll try to acquire a circlet of persuasion, let party members know that they want to buy their own CLW wands if they want extra healing, and generally prepare a few healing spells each day just in case. I'll study the druid handbooks (is there any real difference between this one (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=733400) and that one (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=465005)?) for spells. Any other advice? Edit: The above assumes my DM doesn't disapprove.
Hanniball 01-07-07, 12:59 AM	I would keep your Dex mod out of the negatives. Drop Cha to 12, raise Dex to 10. You still want to be able to gain initiative so you can Wild Shape before your opposition drops on you. Improved Initiative is also a great core feat. I'll study the druid handbooks (is there any real difference between this one and that one?) for spells. The first link has an updated spell list that includes most of the more recent spells from WotC products.
nittanytbone 01-07-07, 01:15 AM	Any other advice? Don't be evil. Summoning unicorns is a chaotic and good spell. You can't do it if you're lawful or evil. And unicorns are the best healing in the game for the mid-levels. Be TN, with selfish/evil tendenices if you must be a jerk to your friends. Also, you can use aging to boost mental ability scores at the expense of physical ones. MY favorite feats as a core druid: -SF Conjuration & Augment Summoning (Druids are good summoners; this makes them excellent) -Craft Wondrous Item (with your spell list you can make nearly any good item, and it makes you popular with everyone in the party, perhaps even indispensable; given that you have selfish and evil fellow PCs, it is a good thing that you are worth more alive and happy than dead!) -Natural Spell (just essential) Stay away from Power Attack; it tends to be less efficient when you don't have a THF weapon. Extend Spell and Quicken Spell are just as useful. As a human, your layout could be something like: 1 - SF Conjuration Human Bonus - Augment Summoning 3 - Craft Wondrous Item (OR Extend Spell) 6 - Natural Spell 9 - Extend Spell (if you didn't take it earlier) 12 - Quicken Spell 15 - Anything needed to become epic ready, or more crafting/metamagic, or Spell Penetration 18 - See above
BomTrady 01-07-07, 01:23 AM	This doesn't really fall under optimization but......... If you have a party full of evil players actually playing evil players it will most likely come down to in fighting or death at the hands of organized good guys. My first piece of advice would be win over the other players and kill the rogue who steals from other PCs. They can do without him but not without you. Evil druids are also hella fun to play.
greatwhiterat 01-07-07, 01:48 AM	I think I'll have fun playing someone clumsy; I don't think I'll be able to get away with it with any other character either. (Actually, it's the same with a good charisma score; I don't think I'd typically have the luxury to afford one, given the sneaky characters I typically like to play.) Argh! Freaking chaotic good! Okay, true neutral it is. I'll consider Craft Wonderous Items as well. The rest of the feats I'll definitely go with. Re: evil parties... I think I've talked the sorcerer into the idea that it'll be more fun if we don't have constant friction over annoying minor betrayals, and that if he's going to betray us, it'll be more effective if it comes as a surprise. The larcenous rogue might be a harder sell. We'll see. Nobody else has indicated that they want to be evil yet, though lawful-good types seem to be considered boring.
fnord 01-07-07, 02:48 AM	Str 8 Dex 8 Con 14 Int 14 Wis 16 Cha 14 I'd do: Str 8 Dex 10 or 12 Con 14 Int 14 Wis 16 Cha 12 or 10 I recommend getting at least some Handle Animal skill, to train your companion. You can probably do without Knowledge: Nature at low levels, and can buy an int boosting item at higher levels. Edit: The second druid's handbook has more non-core stuff. However, it offers more thorough (and, I think, better) advice. It also reflects the wildshape errata.