Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ImCleo 01-17-04, 03:14 PM	Hello, all. I just want to preface my post by explaining my philosophy vis-a-vis min/maxing. This is a game; you play to have fun. However you do that is perfectly acceptable. So if I mention on the thread that I find something "a little too munchy" for me, it's not a condemnation of the original poster or his/her intentions, but simply an acknowledgement that the idea doesn't fit into my personal style. That said, I love all the work done here, and enjoy greatly seeing what people can do with the DnD rules. Any advice on this character, or the pointing out of errors I've made, would be greatly appreciated. Rules - DnD 3.5, incorporating 3.0 where no 3.5 revision exists. Small house rules, probably not too important to my build. No Name Yet - LG elf male Cleric3/Ranger5/Deepwood Sniper2 S 12 D 22 C 10 I 15 W 16 C 11 My idea is to go into Knight of the Chalice, which is sort of exactly the character idea I had in mind. I was originally going to go just Ranger (and probably Deepwood Sniper), and pump all my favored enemy bonuses into Outsiders (evil), but one of our party members received Complete Warrior as a holiday gift, and I found KotC more to my liking. Spending all my time on fighting demons won't be too bad, since our DM is converting GDQ1-7 and H1-4 for us to play, which should involve lots of them. I'd love more skill points (probably through Clr1/Rng7), but I have to keep Cleric and Ranger within 2 levels to avoid the XP penalty, and besides, I'd feel a little guilty taking one level of Cleric and getting two useful feats for it (reconciling a two level dip into Deepwood Sniper is my burden, thank you ;)). So my progression right now is Ranger-> Cleric-> Ranger-> Cleric-> Ranger-> Cleric-> Ranger-> Ranger ->Deepwood Sniper ->Deepwood Sniper ->Knight of the Chalice. . . Feats: CL 1 - ???? Ranger 1 - Track Domain 1 - Point Blank Shot Domain 2 - Weapon Focus (longbow) CL 3 - Precise Shot Ranger 2 - Rapid Shot Ranger 3 - Endurance CL 6 - Far Shot CL 9 - Craft Magic Arms and Armor Notes on feat selection: I have no idea what to take with CL 1. I've considered Dash, Run, Quick Draw, Improved Initiative, Spellcasting Prodigy, and Dodge (with an eye towards Mobility and Shot On The Run at CL 12 and CL 15, respectively). Any suggestions would be nice. Also, Craft Magic Arms and Armor has to stay, because crafting his own magical weapons really fits the character from a role-play standpoint, as does, incidentally, the selection of the Elf and War domains, which happen (fortunately) to help my feat progression tremendously. Another question: My bow is another object of internal debate. What enchantments should I put on it? We have 2000 "extra" experience, and with the starting gold, I've planned to craft a +4 bow. Right now I'm tentatively thinking +1, Holy, Outsiders (evil) Bane. "Tentatively", because my DM may change the pre-requisite for Holy from Holy Smite, only found in Good 4, to something a little less demanding so I can make it myself. Again, any help you could give would be helpful. I'm Cleo!
Hanniball 01-17-04, 03:44 PM	you talk about the possibility of a poster replying with something "to munchy" in a thread requesting advice on the infamous cleric archer! too funny... anyway, i'm here to help so excuse my brashness. please keep in mind that if you take levels in the KotC PrC your characters abilities are EXTREMELY situational (unless you truly do run around killing demons all day...) i don't see the purpose of the cleric levels. did the party healer's die or something? straight Rgr with 2 lvs of fighter into KotC is optimal, IMO.
ImCleo 01-17-04, 04:18 PM	Hanniball, Well, isn't the Cleric Archer just straight Cleric 20? And isn't its centerpiece divine power, which my character will never have? Nor will my character have cleric casting beyond spell level 2. I think I'm pretty far from a Cleric Archer build. And I did spell "too" right. ;) Anyway, I'm taking levels in Cleric because the Knight of the Chalice, as presented in Complete Warrior, requires the ability to cast protection from evil, which a Ranger/Fighter would never get, and 10 ranks in Knowledge (religion), which a Ranger/Fighter wouldn't be able to get until level 17, unless s/he took the Educated feat. I do appreciate your concern about pigeonholing my character with respect to fighting Outsiders (evil). However, I pointed out that we're going to be playing GDQ1-7 Queen of the Spiders, and H1-4, the Bloodstone Series, converted to 3.5 (and geographically linked), so Outsiders (evil) won't be too rare. While it is a bit of metagaming, my DM had the conscience to say, "No, your character won't be useless," since he has a vested interest in everyone having fun as well. Thanks for the reply, I'm Cleo!
Sisyfos 01-17-04, 04:33 PM	The holy outsider bane bow would be incredibly powerful. I'd suggest you take that one. If you have a cleric or wizard in your party you will get plenty of +X arrows through greater magic weapon spell. And as the bow and arrows plusses do not stack the holy and bane enchantments stack with the plusses of the arrows. Great news for you. I would perhaps take holy and some elemental enchantment though as its more generic than outsider bane and you already have a very specialized character. Its your call. Cleric4/ranger5 gives exp penalty for elves though. The levels need to be within one level of each other. Cleric 4 is ok level to take though as you do not lose BAB taking it. Are your stats already decided.. meaning can you change wisdom and something else for example? You do not cast high level spells anyhow and you would benefit from higher con and higher str quite a bit. That 1st level feat... you need to melee at times, right. Well with your high dex weapon finesse would not be a bad feat for those moments if you intend to use a finessable weapon. Its pretty solid build otherwise. You could take a look at the various archery builds around here. Some of those develop incredibly powerful archers capable of doing hundreds of points of damage/round. Sisyfos PS. Improved critical (composite longbow) is not a bad feat...
Master of the Squirrel's 01-17-04, 04:37 PM	Do you have Book of Exalted Deeds? I could make you something pretty devestating if so. I like to think of that book as my specialty. :)
ImCleo 01-17-04, 04:52 PM	Sisyfos, Arghh! I thought it was "2 or less" levels, but really it's "2 or more". Thanks for pointing that out. Drawing board. I'd avoided Improved Critical because of the Deepwood Sniper's Keen Arrows power, assuming they wouldn't stack. Your point about elemental damage adds is well taken. I thought about that, too, looking at the "burst" enchantments to capitalize on my x4 critical multiplier and Hunter's Mercy. As awesome as it would be (and I'm considering it heavily for a CL 10 Battle Arena my friends and I play), I was concerned about how it would work against Outsiders (evil), since they at least have resistance to most things. You might be right, though -- I'm still on the fence. Weapon Finesse is a great idea, by the way, which I had completely missed. That's probably it. Master of the Squirrel's, I don't have the Book of Exalted Deeds, unfortunately, but may be able to see it before our campaign starts. What should I be keeping an eye out for? I'm Cleo!
Sisyfos 01-17-04, 06:29 PM	I found a really nice archer build which will give you ideas. Its done by "ksbsnowowl" ----------------- Well, just 'cause I'm a nice guy I'm gonna post the damage-dealing potential of this build at 10th, 15th, and 20th levels. I didn't do all of these at once, so there may be a few differences in methods and numbers due to the equipment I chose to give the build at the time. And do note that the higher level examples could have much better equipment if I chose to give them wealth appropriate to their levels. Well, here they are: 10th level: Ranger 1/Fighter 4/Deepwood Sniper 2/Peerless Archer 3 Feats: PBS Rapid Shot Precise Shot Weapon Focus Weapon Spec Far Shot Quick Draw Manyshot Dex 20 Invisible Wand of Hunter’s Mercy +2 Shocking Burst Comp Longbow (19-20 x4) Bracers of Archery @25 ft: +9 attack to confirm crit. (+5 dex, +1 WF, +1 PBS, +2 Bracers of Archery, -2 Manyshot) Dmg: 4d8 + 1d6 + 1d6 + 3d10 + 8 + 40 + 4 + 8 + 4 + 1d8 + 1d6 + 2 + 10 + 1 + 2 + 1 Total: 5d8 + 3d6 + 3d10 + 80 (15 + 50 + 5 + 10) Avg Dmg: 129.5 Max Dmg: 168 Min Dmg: 91 15th level: Ranger 1/ Fighter 4/ Deepwood Sniper 7/ Peerless Archer 3 Feats: PBS Rapid Shot Precise Shot Weapon Focus Weapon Spec Far Shot Quick Draw Manyshot Dex 20 Dust of Disappearance Wand of Hunter’s Mercy (advanced) +3 Shocking Burst Oathbow (becomes +5) Bracers of Archery Oil (potion) of Bless Weapon Cover self in dust of disappearance Smear oil of BW on arrow Declare foe as sworn enemy Cast Hunter’s Mercy from Wand Use power shot for +15 damage @25 ft Damage: 6d8(primary arrow) + 30(+5 magical bonus) + 90(power shot) + 12(weap. spec.) + 6(PBS) + 6(Bracers) + 1d6(sneak attack) + 1d6(shocking) + 5d10(burst) + 2d8(second and third arrows) + 10(2&3 magic bonuses) + 30(2&3 power shot) + 4(2&3 weap. spec.) + 2(2&3 PBS) + 2(2&3 Bracers) + 2d6(shocking) Totals: 8d8 + 4d6 + 5d10 + 192 (40 + 120 + 16 + 8 + 8) Total Avg Dmg: 269.5 Total Min Dmg: 209 Total Max Dmg: 330 20th level: Ranger 1/ Fighter 4/ Deepwood Sniper 7/ Peerless Archer 3 / something 5 Feats: PBS Rapid Shot Precise Shot Weapon Focus Weapon Spec Far Shot Quick Draw Manyshot Dex 20 Dust of Disappearance Wand of Hunter’s Mercy (advanced) +5 Shocking Burst Oathbow (becomes +7) Bracers of Archery Oil (potion) of Bless Weapon Cover self in dust of disappearance Smear oil of BW on arrow Declare foe as sworn enemy Cast Hunter’s Mercy from Wand Use power shot for +20 damage @25 ft Damage: 6d8(primary arrow) + 42(+7 magical bonus) + 120(power shot) + 12(weap. spec.) + 6(PBS) + 6(Bracers) + 1d6(sneak attack) + 1d6(shocking) + 5d10(burst) + 3d8(second, third, and fourth arrows) + 21(2, 3 & 4 magic bonuses) + 60(2, 3 & 4 power shot) + 6(2, 3 & 4 weap. spec.) + 3(2, 3 & 4 PBS) + 3(2, 3 & 4 Bracers) + 3d6(shocking 2, 3 & 4) Totals: 9d8 + 5d6 + 5d10 + 279 (63 + 180 + 18 + 9 + 9) Total Avg Dmg: 364.5 Total Min Dmg: 298 Total Max Dmg: 431 Add four +5 arrows to add 45 more damage Add Mty Comp (+4) to bow to add 36 more damage Add the new pal/cleric/(ranger?) spell from Unapproachable East (I have no idea what it's called, I just remember reading the description 5 times, dumbfounded at what it could do for this bit of nastiness) to make the bow (or arrow, I don't remember) a bane weapon of any type. Weapon is treated as a +9 weapon, adding 2d6 + 12 more damage. New totals: Total Avg Dmg: 464.5 Total Min Dmg: 393 Total Max Dmg: 536 As above but at a distance greater than 30 ft: 6d8 + 2d6(bane) + 1d6(shocking) + 5d10(burst) + 54(+9 bow) + 30(arrows) + 24(str mod) + 120(power shot) Total Avg Dmg: 293 Total Min Dmg: 242 Total Max Dmg: 344 Yes, this does mean that you have the possibility (albeit slim) to kill an ancient red dragon outright with one shot at 20th level. It also means that you are guaranteed to kill a (non-advanced) great red wyrm (660 HP) with two attacks, able to be done in two rounds with 3.0 haste. You could also pull it off from a safe distance (say, 300-400 ft) in three rounds. Absolutely scary. Of course your build will not be totally similar, but you certainly can take some ideas from this one. The main tactic is to use hunter's mercy and bless weapon (I think those were the spells) from wand and oil. Look up their descriptions and you'll see how he accomplishes his critical hits. Sisyfos
Master of the Squirrel's 01-19-04, 09:16 PM	Well, if given the option of BoED, you can use this build: Human Ranger 4/Fighter 2/Order of the Bow Initiate 2/Deepwood Sniper 2/Defender of Sealtiel 2/Knight of the Chalice 8 Now your an archer with full BAB, a permanent magic circle vs. evil, and can kick the butt of any Outsider that faces you. Go with the following feats: 1st: PBS, Percice Shot, Track 2nd: Rapid Shot 3rd: Far Shot, Endurance 5th: Weapon Focus: Composite Longbow 6th: Diehard, Nemesis: Evil Outsiders (Exalted) 9th: Servant of the Heavens The rest are up to you, but this gets in all the requirement feats you'll need. Yeah, KotC comes late, but you probably don't need the super demon fighting stuff till that level anyway. Not that your shabby at it up till there. Ranger 4 is for Divine casting, Endurance, Favored Enemy, and for Archery Combat Style. The Fighter 2 is for the extra feats, which will be hugely beneficial. Nemesis means that you don't have to fear Evil Outsiders sneaking up on you. OotBI is of course there for the combat archery, something that synergizes well with DoS later. Deepwood Sniper 2 is for the keen arrows and farther shot. DoS is taken for the Magic Circle vs. Evil, but the stance is excellent for if someone decides to come up close. Then you just lock yourself in place, and take advantage of the no AoO for the bow in combat to knock the baddie out. Now, I do know you were worried about being to munchkiny, but the stuff taken is all stuff correlating to your character concept: a Demon Slaying Archer. This isn't to hard to peice together, either. As a boy, your town, and more importantly, your parents, were destroyed right before your eyes by demons coming to ravage the earth. You had no choice but to retreat to the forests to hide. There, elves took you up to care for you. You only had one goal in life: take out every last demon in the Abyss. This drive lead you to intensive training and study of these vile creatures, and you learned all the nuiances of slaying the beasts. The elves were of course happy to nurture the archery talents you displayed, and taught you the secrets of the elven archers. Through training with the elven warriors, you developed greater and greater skill. One thing that had always been remarkable about you, is that every night you prayed thanks to Sealtiel. No one had ever questioned you, but when a curious young elf asked why he always sat on his knees and looked to the sky every night, you answered, "The night my family and home was destroyed, the only thing that saved me was the great angel that came out of the sky to stop them. Though it was to late for my family, I was saved. I forever hold fealty to the one who saved me, Sealtiel." Finally finished with your training with the elves, you moved on to try to find others like you, the rumored "Defenders of Sealtiel," to hopefully join their ranks.