Advice on a Cleric with VoP feat [Archive] - Wizards Community

Advice on a Cleric with VoP feat [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Skydog10999
03-24-04, 01:30 AM I come to these boards to read everyone's input once in a while and there are a LOT of good ideas. I was just hoping I could put my cleric in here and get some tips and or pointers. We are using 3.5 rules and have access to MOST major books that I see posted. A couple exceptions to this would be the Arcana Unearthed book and the Miniatures Handbook.
Here's my character so far:

Rurik Ironhelm
LG Male Dwarf Cleric of Moradin 5/Monk 2
Dwarf Domain (gives free Great Fort.)
STR 12
DEX 14
CON 18
INT 10
WIS 20
CHA 14

All ability scores are including the bonuses from level 4 and level 7 VoP feat (+2 on wis).

Fort 14
Ref 8
Will 12

Special Abilities/Feats:
Endure Elements, Turn Undead, Extra Turning, Sustenance, Improved Initiative, Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty, Intuitive Attack (use WIS bonus for attack), Great Fortitude, Evasion.

*NOTE* I have one more feat to pick as we have just leveled up to 7 at the end of our last session but I am stuck as to what I should take.

My current max HP is 75 (good rolls witnessed by others).
AC = 24 before buffs (10 Base + 2 Dex + 5 Wis + 7 bonus AC from VoP feat)
I was thinking of throwing one level of Mystic Wanderer (MoF) in there to get the Glory of the Divine ability (add CHA to AC).

I am currently only carrying a quarterstaff and simple dagger for weapons and any weapon I wield is considered a +1 weapon (VoP feat again) so my attack bonus for each is a +10 (or +8/+8 using Flurry of blows with quarterstaff).

In our current campaign, we have my character, a halfling rogue, a gnome sorcerer (focused on illusion), and a drow psion. The sad part is that I am the most experienced player in the group and I make up the role of healer/undead killer/melee fighter.

As you can see, I need to have a fairly well rounded character who can go toe to toe with the enemy and fix everyone up when the fight is over.

My current set of most used spells are Luminous armor (unfortunately - 1d2 STR but my damage isn't from STR anyways) which ups my AC by 5, Spikes, protection from evil, and Divine Favor. Thank Moradin that the Spikes and Luminous armor are 1hr/lvl. Takes less time to buff if those are already active when starting a battle.

My 10 in INT really hurts in the skills section so I am severely limited in my choices. I have been pumping them into Concentration and Spellcraft (and Knowledge Religion). Next Level I get a bonus exalted feat and plan to take Nymph's Kiss (BoED).

I took the 5 levels of Cleric first, then went to Monk (for the unarmed AC bonus from wisdom, Flurry of Blows, bonus feats, and the Evasion ability). My next level(s) will be in Hospitaler (yes, I know my feats selection doesn't technically allow me but I pleaded a good case to my DM about the Mounted feats being rediculous
:angel: ).

I definitely need the attack bonus if I am to be a melee fighting cleric (and I DO plan to remain a cleric...or some semblance of one) which is why I am going with the Hosp. PrC. Unfortunately I really don't like the saving throw progression...10 levels and Ref and Will only go up 3???:(

Anyway, that's all the information I have for you. I would like to remain primarily a spellcaster but the idea is to optimize the melee portion of my character, whether by spells, feats, PrCs or a combo of all of these.

I'm ready for the critiques and flames now :D
Skydog10999
03-24-04, 09:10 AM Nobody wants to touch this huh? Maybe I should have shortened it a bit. Either that or my build is not original enough....(though it's hard to be original on these boards).
Anyone?
Sisyfos
03-24-04, 09:32 AM This is not a comphrehensive reply by any means, but your character could be improved very simply by you just continuing your cleric progression at least to level 8. The next 3 levels are all full bab and pretty good + to saves levels also.

Sisyfos
rilem
03-24-04, 10:05 AM The Hospitaler has long been savaged as a cheesy and poorly written PrC for a Cleric — very few PrCs give full divine spellcasting and full BAB, and they're generally designed to be hard to get into. The only mitigating factor for Hospitaliter has been the mounted feat requirements, which are pretty useless for a cleric. Now you've convinced your DM to ignore those requirements, and you're complaining because the PrC still isn't good enough for you? Yikes. Your Will save will be good anyway — you've got a good wisdom. Quit complaining.

But I wouldn't count on keeping that Dwarf domain — I believe the domains you receive from Hospitaler replace any previous domains you may have. What's your other Cleric domain?

Finally, there are some conceptual problems here. I have difficulty imagining a deity of earth and metalworking to be endorsing a cleric who's running around in rags, casting spikes on a wooden quarterstaff who can't own any valuable metal. What a sorry excuse for a dwarf. It's legal, I know, but you might be better off with Thard Harr, a wild drawven deity of the hunt.

Your character seems like a natural fit for Sacred Fist — it doesn't continue cleric spellcasting, but it fits with both VoP and your Monk levels. Take Mysticism as your extra domain (CHA to AC), and you'll eventually get Wisdom to Attack (again? don't know if it stacks with VoP) and Damage. You'll finish out at Cleric 8or10/Monk2/SacredFist 8or10. Take craft wand and split the healing duties with the rogue, who should be maxing his/her Use Magic Device skill ranks.

Alternately, simply continue as cleric as suggested, with dips into Contemplative, Mystic Wander, etc. as needed.. Are you planning on using the 3.5 rules for Persistent Spell? If not, simply take extend/persistent spell and you'll have all the combat capability you'll need.
Blade2718
03-24-04, 11:01 AM Power Attack->Divine Might are always good for a melee cleric.

If you want to focus on your undead turning abilities, get into Sacred Exorcist, which will be extremely tough on you because of the skill ranks. If you want to focus on melee, then the Hospitalier is a no-brainer.

Also, VoP only lets you have one non-masterwork simple weapon, so I'm not sure why you have both a quarterstaff and a dagger. If I were you, I'd chuck the dagger as the staff is the real damage-dealer (w/ Spikes on it).
Skydog10999
03-24-04, 12:36 PM Thanks for the suggestions/responses.

rilem: You are absolutely right, the Hospitaler class is pretty cheesy and I am wrong to complain about the little progress in saving throws considering all the other benefits gained. Also, conceptually, you are right about the dwarf running around in rags praying to Moradin. Unfortunately, I took the domain initially before having a plan of what I wanted to do with this character. I had never played a Dwarf or a cleric and I also did not have the BoED when we started this campaign. If I had to do it again, I might have chosen a Human cleric of Illmater (which works better conceptually).
BTW, where is the Contemplative PrC from?

Sisyfos: Thanks for the advice. I am beginning to think that maybe it would be a good idea to just stick with the Cleric levels. That way my ability to turn undead will not suffer (since Hospitaler does not progress this ability).

Blade: I would really like to go that route (power attack, divine might) but unfortunately I do not qualify for Power attack as of yet. I could put the remaining points from levels there (giving me a total of 16 at level 20) and use one of the ability boosts from VoP as well, but I am thinking I will try to rely on buff spells. If I take this character to epic levels, I would like to get my WIS up around 30.
Don't have access to my books right now but I didn't think the VoP feat actually said you "can't" have more than one simple weapon, it was just a suggestion. The dagger is a multi use tool. Cutting my meat, or rope...or cutting your way out of a huge critter who has you in his gullet :angel:
Of course, i could be wrong about multiple weapons, like I said, I can't look at the book right now.

Perhaps a few more levels of Cleric and then some Hospitaler levels for the BAB. I will just have to find some decent spells to use as "must haves" like righteous might, luminous armor, etc. Any other suggestions? Spells or otherwise?

Thanks again.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Skydog10999 03-24-04, 01:30 AM	I come to these boards to read everyone's input once in a while and there are a LOT of good ideas. I was just hoping I could put my cleric in here and get some tips and or pointers. We are using 3.5 rules and have access to MOST major books that I see posted. A couple exceptions to this would be the Arcana Unearthed book and the Miniatures Handbook. Here's my character so far: Rurik Ironhelm LG Male Dwarf Cleric of Moradin 5/Monk 2 Dwarf Domain (gives free Great Fort.) STR 12 DEX 14 CON 18 INT 10 WIS 20 CHA 14 All ability scores are including the bonuses from level 4 and level 7 VoP feat (+2 on wis). Fort 14 Ref 8 Will 12 Special Abilities/Feats: Endure Elements, Turn Undead, Extra Turning, Sustenance, Improved Initiative, Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty, Intuitive Attack (use WIS bonus for attack), Great Fortitude, Evasion. NOTE I have one more feat to pick as we have just leveled up to 7 at the end of our last session but I am stuck as to what I should take. My current max HP is 75 (good rolls witnessed by others). AC = 24 before buffs (10 Base + 2 Dex + 5 Wis + 7 bonus AC from VoP feat) I was thinking of throwing one level of Mystic Wanderer (MoF) in there to get the Glory of the Divine ability (add CHA to AC). I am currently only carrying a quarterstaff and simple dagger for weapons and any weapon I wield is considered a +1 weapon (VoP feat again) so my attack bonus for each is a +10 (or +8/+8 using Flurry of blows with quarterstaff). In our current campaign, we have my character, a halfling rogue, a gnome sorcerer (focused on illusion), and a drow psion. The sad part is that I am the most experienced player in the group and I make up the role of healer/undead killer/melee fighter. As you can see, I need to have a fairly well rounded character who can go toe to toe with the enemy and fix everyone up when the fight is over. My current set of most used spells are Luminous armor (unfortunately - 1d2 STR but my damage isn't from STR anyways) which ups my AC by 5, Spikes, protection from evil, and Divine Favor. Thank Moradin that the Spikes and Luminous armor are 1hr/lvl. Takes less time to buff if those are already active when starting a battle. My 10 in INT really hurts in the skills section so I am severely limited in my choices. I have been pumping them into Concentration and Spellcraft (and Knowledge Religion). Next Level I get a bonus exalted feat and plan to take Nymph's Kiss (BoED). I took the 5 levels of Cleric first, then went to Monk (for the unarmed AC bonus from wisdom, Flurry of Blows, bonus feats, and the Evasion ability). My next level(s) will be in Hospitaler (yes, I know my feats selection doesn't technically allow me but I pleaded a good case to my DM about the Mounted feats being rediculous :angel: ). I definitely need the attack bonus if I am to be a melee fighting cleric (and I DO plan to remain a cleric...or some semblance of one) which is why I am going with the Hosp. PrC. Unfortunately I really don't like the saving throw progression...10 levels and Ref and Will only go up 3???:( Anyway, that's all the information I have for you. I would like to remain primarily a spellcaster but the idea is to optimize the melee portion of my character, whether by spells, feats, PrCs or a combo of all of these. I'm ready for the critiques and flames now :D
Skydog10999 03-24-04, 09:10 AM	Nobody wants to touch this huh? Maybe I should have shortened it a bit. Either that or my build is not original enough....(though it's hard to be original on these boards). Anyone?
Sisyfos 03-24-04, 09:32 AM	This is not a comphrehensive reply by any means, but your character could be improved very simply by you just continuing your cleric progression at least to level 8. The next 3 levels are all full bab and pretty good + to saves levels also. Sisyfos
rilem 03-24-04, 10:05 AM	The Hospitaler has long been savaged as a cheesy and poorly written PrC for a Cleric — very few PrCs give full divine spellcasting and full BAB, and they're generally designed to be hard to get into. The only mitigating factor for Hospitaliter has been the mounted feat requirements, which are pretty useless for a cleric. Now you've convinced your DM to ignore those requirements, and you're complaining because the PrC still isn't good enough for you? Yikes. Your Will save will be good anyway — you've got a good wisdom. Quit complaining. But I wouldn't count on keeping that Dwarf domain — I believe the domains you receive from Hospitaler replace any previous domains you may have. What's your other Cleric domain? Finally, there are some conceptual problems here. I have difficulty imagining a deity of earth and metalworking to be endorsing a cleric who's running around in rags, casting spikes on a wooden quarterstaff who can't own any valuable metal. What a sorry excuse for a dwarf. It's legal, I know, but you might be better off with Thard Harr, a wild drawven deity of the hunt. Your character seems like a natural fit for Sacred Fist — it doesn't continue cleric spellcasting, but it fits with both VoP and your Monk levels. Take Mysticism as your extra domain (CHA to AC), and you'll eventually get Wisdom to Attack (again? don't know if it stacks with VoP) and Damage. You'll finish out at Cleric 8or10/Monk2/SacredFist 8or10. Take craft wand and split the healing duties with the rogue, who should be maxing his/her Use Magic Device skill ranks. Alternately, simply continue as cleric as suggested, with dips into Contemplative, Mystic Wander, etc. as needed.. Are you planning on using the 3.5 rules for Persistent Spell? If not, simply take extend/persistent spell and you'll have all the combat capability you'll need.
Blade2718 03-24-04, 11:01 AM	Power Attack->Divine Might are always good for a melee cleric. If you want to focus on your undead turning abilities, get into Sacred Exorcist, which will be extremely tough on you because of the skill ranks. If you want to focus on melee, then the Hospitalier is a no-brainer. Also, VoP only lets you have one non-masterwork simple weapon, so I'm not sure why you have both a quarterstaff and a dagger. If I were you, I'd chuck the dagger as the staff is the real damage-dealer (w/ Spikes on it).
Skydog10999 03-24-04, 12:36 PM	Thanks for the suggestions/responses. rilem: You are absolutely right, the Hospitaler class is pretty cheesy and I am wrong to complain about the little progress in saving throws considering all the other benefits gained. Also, conceptually, you are right about the dwarf running around in rags praying to Moradin. Unfortunately, I took the domain initially before having a plan of what I wanted to do with this character. I had never played a Dwarf or a cleric and I also did not have the BoED when we started this campaign. If I had to do it again, I might have chosen a Human cleric of Illmater (which works better conceptually). BTW, where is the Contemplative PrC from? Sisyfos: Thanks for the advice. I am beginning to think that maybe it would be a good idea to just stick with the Cleric levels. That way my ability to turn undead will not suffer (since Hospitaler does not progress this ability). Blade: I would really like to go that route (power attack, divine might) but unfortunately I do not qualify for Power attack as of yet. I could put the remaining points from levels there (giving me a total of 16 at level 20) and use one of the ability boosts from VoP as well, but I am thinking I will try to rely on buff spells. If I take this character to epic levels, I would like to get my WIS up around 30. Don't have access to my books right now but I didn't think the VoP feat actually said you "can't" have more than one simple weapon, it was just a suggestion. The dagger is a multi use tool. Cutting my meat, or rope...or cutting your way out of a huge critter who has you in his gullet :angel: Of course, i could be wrong about multiple weapons, like I said, I can't look at the book right now. Perhaps a few more levels of Cleric and then some Hospitaler levels for the BAB. I will just have to find some decent spells to use as "must haves" like righteous might, luminous armor, etc. Any other suggestions? Spells or otherwise? Thanks again.