Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Skonky 03-28-05, 01:28 AM	Hi all, recently my character "expired". As such I need an effective level 10 character. My group is currently playing in the Greyhawk setting and the module we are currently playing is the Return of the Temple of Elemental Evil. I know many of the readers of this board have completed this module in addition to having much more experience with playing different character types than I do. And so I'd appreciate any advice, thoughts or tips (no spoilers please) that you can offer in terms of character direction (and then assistance with an actual build). Below is a description of the scenario and then some of my thoughts about my next potential character. **Spoiler for those few who haven't played this module** Where we are at: We've just cleared the majority of the Crater ridge mines and have been arrogantly conducting raids into the Outer Fane. These have been until now quite successful with the party having demolished most of the forces inside. The problem is now who is left in the outerfane: - Chymon the adult red dragon - A devil Corrugon (we haven't been to "see" him yet) - An elder Tojunda - A demon (Infinitus) - A few henchmen who maintain the lightening towers etc. Also; - Tulian's eye has just been lost and with it the party's main form of resupply of stores etc. - The Champion of elemental evil has been found is out there... - Hedrack is dead (as is most of the Outerfane hierachy) - Thrommel with our help in secreting his coffin out of the outerfane has "moved on" - Infinitus has "enlisted" our reluctant help to kill Chymon and the corrugun, in return for information about the temple, their plans and other relevant items. but he's already back stabbed us twice... eh what can you expect from an evil demon? - Chymon has taken control of the outerfane (it seems thought that this was not for the temple but for her own benefit) - Unfortunately all enemies are ready, expecting us and prepared for our team and our usual tactics. ** Spoiler ended** Basics: Stats: 18, 17, 16, 16, 12, 9 (Best stats I've EVER rolled.) Books allowed: All 3.5 core including all of the complete series. We don't really have access to any of the other books (we're not really made of money, more's the pity) The party is mostly level 11 going on 12. As I've just died I come back as level 10 character with treasure as per the DMG. The team is: Brn 10 / Ftr 1 Brn 5 / Ftr 6 Clr 10 / Ftr 1 Rog 5 / Ftr 1 / Wiz 4 My previous characters have been the sneaky support guy, relying mainly on skills, sneak attack and UMD abilities. However making use of UMD is an expensive option which doesn’t look feasible in the future. Not to mention the survivability issues of an up close rogue support fighter. So my thoughts were: - Ranger / barbarian / Horizon Walker (something like Rgr 3 / Brn 2 / HW 5 or Rgr 1 / Brn 4 / HW 5) The benefits of this is the mobility, all the benefits of rage without the drawbacks, next level take HW 6 and get a virtually unlimited access to Dimension Door for increased mobility. With Ranger I could still act as the team scout and relatively sneaky character. And as a fighter character it would be relatively simple to play and would allow me to use a spiked chain, something I've been wanting to try for a while. but does our party really need another fighter? - Bard / Rog / Sublime chord / Arcane trickster (Something like Brd 7 / Rog 3) This was my original plan. Unfortunately I can't see this build helping from the get go as I think it really starts to shine around level 12 / 13. And surviving until then is important. - Rog / Wiz / Daggerspell mage / Arcane trickster I'm not too sure aout this combo ... I'm just unsure about the character's usefulness and survivability. This is mostly due to the teams lack of experience with arcane caster characters - Some form of eldrich knight Basically the same issues as the DSM / AT type of build. Thanks for reading and your help. Skonky edited to fix the whole bar = Barbarian or bard issue (sorry I'm a dork sometimes)
Dain 03-28-05, 05:51 AM	Well, with those stats you can make pretty much any character you want. How about the old Fighter 2/Wizard 4/Spellsword 5/Eldritch Knight 9 build? Perhaps built like this: Dwarf Ftr 2/Wiz 4/SS 4 Str 18 (+2 from leveling) Dex 16 Con 19 (+2 racial) Int 18 Wis 12 Chr 7 (-2 racial) Progression: 1) Fighter 1: 2x FEAT (Power Attack, Cleave) 2) Fighter 2: FEAT (WF: Greatsword) 3) Ftr 2/Wiz 1: 2x FEAT (Scribe Scroll, Practiced Spellcaster) 4) Ftr 2/Wiz 2: 5) Ftr 2/Wiz 3: 6) Ftr 2/Wiz 4: FEAT (Improved Initiative) 7) Ftr 2/Wiz 4/SS 1: - 10 % ASF 8) Ftr 2/Wiz 4/SS 2: FEAT (Improved Toughness) 9) Ftr 2/Wiz 4/SS 3: FEAT (Arcane Strike), - 15 % ASF 10) Ftr 2/Wiz 4/SS 4: Channel Spell 3/day And for further progression: 11) Ftr 2/Wiz 4/SS 5: - 20 % ASF 12) Ftr 2/Wiz 4/SS 5/EK 1: 2x FEAT (Improved Toughness, Empower Spell) 15) Ftr 2/Wiz 4/SS 5/EK 4: FEAT (Quicken Spell) 18) Ftr 2/Wiz 4/SS 5/EK 7: FEAT (Spell Penetration) Grab a Mithril Breastplate (which you'll be able to cast spells in w/o Arcane Spell Failure) and go to town. Hope this helps! - Dain
Helmed Horror 03-28-05, 09:18 AM	hmm, druid is always a good option. Warlock is a good blaster as well.
Griff_Goodbeard 03-28-05, 09:26 AM	A straight caster might be nice too. Something like W6/Geometer x/IoSV x would work quite well for RtToEE.
Dain 03-28-05, 11:58 AM	I think that he would be wasting those stats by making a sorceror, wizard, warlock or druid. I mean, those stats aare the best he's ever rolled - shouldn't he make a character that benefits a lot from high stats (which the previously mentioned classes don't) instead of something he could make with the elite array? Respectfully - Dain
Griff_Goodbeard 03-28-05, 12:06 PM	@Dain As a wizard it never hurts to be able to throw a 17 and 16 into Con And Dex, respectivly. With those stats it would be tempting to make a monk or a monk/enlightened fist, I just think that in relation to the modual he's in, he'll get the most milage out of a straight caster (esp. since there isn't one in the party currently)
Dain 03-28-05, 12:30 PM	No, it never hurts to have good stats. But even so, the previously mentioned casters just don't benefit as much from high stats as the other classes do.
faradhii 03-28-05, 12:34 PM	I agree with the PAC idea, but you can do other things as well. Take 2 flaws from the UA and the Martial wizard option (exchange scribe scroll and the free feat every 5 lvls for fighter feats) also from UA. If the DM will allow the admittedly broken militia feat from Players guide to Faerun (all armor types and martial Profs). Do: Human: Wizard 8, Spellsword 1, Dragonslayer 1 (if you have Drocaonomicon, if not, Eldritch Knight 1) after that finish out Eldritch knight so you end up (assuming no Draconomicon) Wiz 8, SS 1, EK 10, pick your last lvl, doesn't really matter as long as you get +1 caster lvl. If the DM does not allow Militia, just take a lvl of fighter at lvl 1 ending up: Ftr 1, Wiz 6, SS 1, EK 10, pick last 2 lvls maybe Initiate of the 7 fold veils? Assume no militia, no Draconomicon: S: 18 (+1 at 4) I: 19 (all further stat bonuses go here) D: 16 C: 16 W: 12 Ch: 9 feel free to switch these around, con may be more imp to you than ST. 1: Ftr 1: 5 feats (1 start, 1 ftr, 1 human, 2 flaws) EWP Spiked chain, WF Spiked chain, Combat expertise, Imp Trip, Dodge. 2: Wizard 1: Power attack 3: Wizard 2: Mobility 4: Wizard 3: 1 point into ST 5: Wizard 4: 6: Wizard 5: Spring Attack, practiced spellcaster 7: Wizard 6: 8: Spellsword 1: +1 to Int, -10% ASF (get a mithril T-Shirt, or Twilight mithril Breastplate) 9: EK 1: Arcane Strike, hold for elusive target at 10 10: EK2: Elusive Target at 10 you get lvl 8 caster ability, fair HP for a mobile chain fighter, cast enlarge on yourself and bulls St, or just arrange your stats ST: 9 D: 16 C: 12 I: 18 (19 at 8) W: 17 (18 at 4) CH: 16 and polymorph into an annis hag or something else (see polymorph thread)
Mommy was an Orc 03-28-05, 01:21 PM	In a game such as this one, I might consider playing a pure Bard character. You've got the ideal party for it - looks like everyone is some kind of weapon user in a fight. Just do the following: Cast Haste Inspire Courage(with the additional +1 from that 1st level spell from Complete Adventurer for a total of +3) And then start shooting arrows. Lingering Song, Subsonics(that way you can keep singing after the battle and not have to waste a lot of bardic musics/1st level spells), Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, and Rapid Shot are good feat choices. You'll likely double the damage that the party inflicts on enemies and give them lots of tactical movement capabilities. That will be worth a lot.
seans23 03-28-05, 01:59 PM	I'd go with monk/enlightened fist or rogue/wizard. A wizard with evasion is pretty handy. Don't you have enough bard levels in that group?
Mommy was an Orc 03-28-05, 03:25 PM	I'm pretty sure they're Barbarians, not Bards...uses the Bar abbreviation to stand for both Barbarian(his horizon walker) and Bard(his arcane trickster) I'd go with monk/enlightened fist or rogue/wizard. A wizard with evasion is pretty handy. Don't you have enough bard levels in that group?
Crusher Nate 03-28-05, 03:26 PM	I'll second the Bard suggestion. I'm not very familiar with RttToEE; the one time I played in it, I came in toward the end with a half-elf Rogue 2/Sorcerer 4. This was right after 3.5 hit the shelves. He fared pretty nicely; I never missed a touch attack roll. So there's another option. I've played the ToEE computer game, and I found the Bard I created to be my favorite partymember. She was a tremendous asset in fights. Reconstructing her with the stats you rolled, she'd probably look something like this... Human Bard level 10 S 16 D 17 C 16 I 12 W 9 Ch 18 Feats: 1-Combat Reflexes 1-Power Attack 3-EWP (spiked chain) 6-Cleave 9-Great Cleave The game had lots and lots of fights against huge numbers of enemies. In such fights, she'd find a good spot to stand and cast Grease so as to hit as many enemies as possible in a circle around her. Then she'd sing and wait for the enemies to start standing up. For good measure, I liked having my Sorcerer cast Enlarge Person on her, too, if he wasn't too busy blasting the crap out of another big group. The rest of my group would stand outside the Grease circle and crush anything there (and around the edges), except for my Rogue, whose huge Ref save made it relatively safe for her to venture out into the Grease and dish out sneak attacks on prone enemies. That tactic worked beautifully for most fights, making that Bard my MVP. Poor saps never knew what hit 'em. I'm not sure if it'd be as great in the module, but it could be worth a try. Edit: A big part of the reason she worked so well, though, was due to really good equipment which may or may not be available in the module. Just a little something to keep in mind.
Skonky 03-28-05, 11:53 PM	Hi all, Thanks for your help. I'd just like to say Dain has hit the proverbial nail on the head. These are the BEST stats that I've ever rolled and seeing how I'm generally known in my group for my UNLUCKY rolls I would like to make the most out of these stats. (Like rolling three 1's for HP in a row with one character, which is why my DM has rulled that instead of rolling/gambling my group can opt to take the "average" HP, where Average is just half the hit dice, we round the 0.5 down as a cost of the guaranteed result.) My poor luck with the dice (ah fickle fate) is actually one of the reasons why historically I've liked rogues so much (just pump up those vital skills and it doesn't matter if I roll a 3 I can still be effective at something!). And well having lurked on the boards for so long I've gained the impression that a good Gish can be very stat intensive. Which given with my party's lack of arcane casting and my current stats I thought they just seemed to scream for a gish. So I suppose my question breaks away into two trees: Q1- What would be the relative benefits of a Gish over say a straight Druid or Bard? Cant a gish also assist with battle field control spells and party buffs just as well as Bard or Druid? (Sure the druid get's an animal companion and wildshape, i'm just looking at the relative benefit of these abilities against one or two BBEG's as opposed to a number of medium to low level chumps). Although the Bard's bardic music does look useful... I've found recently that the damage output of ranged weapons (such as bows etc) to be simply not up to the challenge of a high powered BBEG with high AC and damage reduction. Perhaps I'm doing something wrong, or it may just be a by product of my afore mentioned (bad) luck with the Dice? But the poor damage ration with the average BAB seems to prevent this from being a really strong option at this point in my game. Q2- Assuming I go with the Gish (because without some line of thought that would convince me otherwise, I think my party might get the most assistance out of this) let's look at the two builds Darven Ftr 2 / Wiz 4 / SS 4 Ftr 1 / Wiz 6 / SS 1 / EK 2 Of these two I like the Second better... simply because of the higher caster level. Unfortunately we don't have access to UA and I doubt my DM would use it in our current setting. Nor would most of the FR stuff be allowed. As we're currently looking at that material but have decided to leave it for another campaign in another setting. I apologise if I've made some glaring errors But I don't have my books with me... also why Wiz 6 and not Wiz 5? but anyway what do people think of: Human: 1: Ftr 1: EWP Spiked chain, WF Spiked chain, Combat expertise 2: Wiz 1: Scribe Scroll 3: Wiz 2: Power Attack 4: Wiz 3 5: Wiz 4 6: Wiz 5: Extend Spell, Practiced spellcaster 7: Wiz 6: 8: Spellsword 1: -10% ASF 9: EK 1: Arcane Strike, Cleave 10: EK2: CL: 7 (10 with Praciced spell caster) 4th level spells, HP: 32 (72 with CON modifier) It seems pretty stock standard. I'd envisage a spell selection with a few evocation/conjuration attack spells but focus mainly on party buff and battle field control spells. And then enlarge myself stand behind the tanks and then pepper the enemy with my chain. With Stats being: Str: 20 (+1 at 8 & +2 item) Dex: 16 Con: 18 (+2 item) Int: 21 (+1 at 4 and a +2 item) Wis: 12 Cha: 9 Thoughts? Pointers? Mistakes? Thanks again for your help. Skonky
Piraatje 03-29-05, 02:31 AM	Read the 'polymorph' spell. This is your one-spell-gets-me-good-physical-stats-AND-size. Secondly, think if you want the 'battlefield-control spiked chain gish' with combat reflexes, imp trip, disarm, etc, or a more 'spell-powered gish' with metamagic feats and arcane strike. I would suggest not getting power attack in either case, because it's not worth it with your gishy bab and you'll lack feats. You will probably need that wiz6 for the extra bab to qualify for spellsword ;) Statwise, put 18 in int and 17 in con. Dwarf is always a good race to pick for the extra con. I'd probably get one of those 16's in wisdom for the extra willsaves; you'll be fighting polymorphed anyway with that spiked chain.
Griff_Goodbeard 03-29-05, 08:13 AM	If you're looking at a gish, might I suggest some variation of the sor/pal gish. In my experience in RtToEE saves are incredibly important. I don't have a lot of experience with gish's so I won't offer a build, but I've seen a Gish build guide floating around here somewhere. :)
Mommy was an Orc 03-29-05, 11:11 AM	Nope. The thing to remember about Bard is it doesn't just enhance your abilities, it enhances everyone else too. If you want some arcane power, the Bard 7/Master Thrower 2/Druid 1/Sublime Chord 1/Fochuclan Lyrist 9 is pretty effective - you're eventually a 16th level Bard with 9th level Arcane spells and 5th level Divine spells and a +16 BAB. But that's eventually. Where the Bard really influences things is that it has relatively unique bonuses to hit - there just aren't that many things that give a +3 to hit/damage morale bonus at level 10. Take your Fighter types as an example: Let's say they have about a +21 to hit and are swinging at an AC 25 opponent. +21/16/11 would expect to hit on a 4/9/14 or .85/.6/.35 expected hits. You kick that up to .95/.70/.45(1 spent on Power Attack) That's 1.8 hits per round vs 2.1 hits per round. Let's also say they do about 20 hp of damage per swing. Now they do 25. 36 hp vs 52.5. That's an increase of 45%. Adding +3 to the Rogue will really boost his damage, but let's ignore that for now. By spending one standard action, you've essentially increased the damage output of 3 of the party members by 45% each...in effect, if you do nothing for the rest of the combat, you're adding more damage per round than any of those other 3 members of the party... A Gish can cast Heroism, but that's a 3rd level spell in relatively short supply and it only affects one person for +2 to hit(and saves/skills). A spell you can also cast to make the Rogue a better Rogue... Cant a gish also assist with battle field control spells and party buffs just as well as Bard or Druid? (Sure the druid get's an animal companion and wildshape, i'm just looking at the relative benefit of these abilities against one or two BBEG's as opposed to a number of medium to low level chumps).
Fugazi 03-29-05, 11:39 AM	Okay different but since I just LOVE this cleric idea (and loved playing it).. how about this: Human Cleric7/Sacred Exorcist3 Fire/Earth domain (or Water/Air, just take two so you can affect all elemental-type creatures). Feats 1 Improved Turning 1 Extra Turning 3 Extend Spell 6 Divine Metamagic Extend 9 Improved Initiative For items, buy items that either boost charisma/charisma rolls/turning checks, such as the Cloak of Charisma, the Circlet of Persuasion, that book that gives +4levels on turning and Sacred armor (Exalted Deeds.). So what do you do? Besides long-term buffing the group and yourself, you can affect all elemental types (such as dragons and other creatures with an elemental descriptor) and undead and either blast or control them. Neat no? Next to that, just progress with the Exorcist so you get those lovely Dispel Evil's and such. You turn, you nuke and you buff and keep your party alive. Next to that, get a club, cast spikes and you're ready to go!
Griff_Goodbeard 03-29-05, 12:13 PM	Another thing to keep in mind is that unless your DM has material planned beyond RttToEE, you will top out at about 12-15th level so I would steer clear of builds that hit their stride powerwise after 15th level.
Votan 03-29-05, 12:18 PM	Another thing to keep in mind is that unless your DM has material planned beyond RttToEE, you will top out at about 12-15th level so I would steer clear of builds that hit their stride powerwise after 15th level. This is extremely good advice. One common flaw of character optimization is to look at the final build and say "Wow, that is impressive" but not to consider all of the painful levels where the character is subpar. Mystic Theruge builds, to name one example, are famous (infamous?) for this. While some degree of sacrifice for later benefit makes sense (without it many good prestige classes would be impossible as they often require a suboptimal feat or two), any huge sacrifce just makes things hurt for a long time.
faradhii 03-29-05, 02:29 PM	you need Wiz 6 + Ftr 1 to get BAB +4 to qualify for Spellsword. Also, if you look at Wiz 6, it's a great lvl, +1 BAB, and +1 Fort & Ref saves I believe. For a chain Gish, Cleave is fairly unimportant. Power attack is useful because you can substitute arcane strike bonus to hit for the BAB your trading off to get more dmg from the power attack. Since you're starting at lvl 10 you have a really interesting option, polymorph. You seem to be favoring the basic Gish build Ftr 1, wiz 6, SS1, Ek 2. Dump your worse stat in St, your best in the mental stats, a decent one in Con so if you get caught with your pants down you don't suck. Since you'll probably spend rd. 1 of combat casting a buff spell, make it polymorph. An Annis Hag (7 HD monster I believe) gets you like a 25 ST, 18 Con, Large size with reach, +8 or so natural armor. Or you can go with my personal favorite: Hydra. At caster lvl 10 with practiced spellcaster, you get a huge Hydra with 10 attacks a round. now, reading arcane strike, you can channel that extra to hit and dmg. into all your natural attacks for that round. Say you spend a 3rd level spell, that's 10 attacks with +3 to hit and +3d4 extra dmg. Not to shabby! Heck, take the feat, natural spell I believe it's called, and you can cast in any form (including Hydra) you want. If you play an Aasimar, or any other race that has the outsider type, then it gets even MORE intersting. Look up the 3.5 polymorph thread for great brokenness, at lvl 12 you have access to War Troll! :) Go Diviner as a specialization, give up Necromancy. Now those useful divination spells can be used in combat as well! Have a clairvoyance spell that through arcane strike and Hydra does a potential 30d4 extra dmg!
faradhii 03-29-05, 02:34 PM	Oh, one other thing, take a familiar (I use a hummingbird) and as long as it's within 5' of you it gains the benefits of any spell you cast. Take the feat from CA that allows full familiar progression and yu can have 2 Hydras or War trolls, or whatever hammering your foes over the fighters. If you go the Hydra route, pray your DM doesn't throw a Sundering fighter against you! :) Now I don't know if your familiar would gain the benefit of your arcane strike, anyone know?
Dain 03-29-05, 03:53 PM	About the 2 builds in question: The Dwarven Fighter/Mage I suggested, Ftr 2/Wiz 4/SS 5/EK 7, has got a lot more martial focus than the Ftr 1/Wiz 6/SS 1/EK 10 build. Let's compare these builds at 18th level: Ftr 2/Wiz 4/SS 5/EK 7 BAB + 16 Feats: 11 HP: 10 + 1d10 + 4d4 + 5d8 + 7d6 = 72,5 avrg. SA: - 20 % ASF, Channel Spell. Caster level: 13 (17 effective CL with Practiced Spellcaster) Ftr 1/Wiz 6/SS 1/EK 10 BAB + 15 Feats: 9 HP: 10 + 6d4 + 1d8 + 10d6 = 64,5 avrg. SA: - 10 % ASF Caster level: 16 (18 effective CL with Practiced Spellcaster) In other words, you trade 3 caster levels (1 effective CL) for 2 feats, +1 BAB, 8 HP, the ability to channel a damage dealing spell into your weapon and - 10 % extra ASF. I think channel spell is a cool ability, and it suits the Fighter/Mage well, in my opinion. -20 % ASF is nice as well - it allows you to wear Twillight Mithral Full Plate with no chance of spell failure. Now, 3 caster levels (1 effective) is powerful, no doubt about it. But the payoff is good as well. Now you've got the analysis which should make the decision easier. It's really up to you. :) - Dain
Iaimeki 03-29-05, 09:17 PM	Q1- What would be the relative benefits of a Gish over say a straight Druid or Bard? Cant a gish also assist with battle field control spells and party buffs just as well as Bard or Druid? (Sure the druid get's an animal companion and wildshape, i'm just looking at the relative benefit of these abilities against one or two BBEG's as opposed to a number of medium to low level chumps). Although the Bard's bardic music does look useful... I've found recently that the damage output of ranged weapons (such as bows etc) to be simply not up to the challenge of a high powered BBEG with high AC and damage reduction. Perhaps I'm doing something wrong, or it may just be a by product of my afore mentioned (bad) luck with the Dice? But the poor damage ration with the average BAB seems to prevent this from being a really strong option at this point in my game. Unfortunately, no. A gish is an alternate combat character, not an alternate primary caster. They're more similar to a buffing cleric than anything else, since there aren't many options that allow you to cast and attack at the same time. (Enlightened fist and havoc mage are the only PrCs that come to mind. Spellsword gets channel spell, but it's pretty limited, both because it consumes a move action and can only be used a small number of times/day.) You can summon and cast battlefield control spells safely away from the enemies just as well as you can right next to them, and possibly better (since you're not in the fray, you don't have to worry about AoOs, have better vision of the battlefield, and so forth). Meanwhile, the gish's advantages (armor, high BAB, more hit points, etc.) don't do much in the back of the party, and the gish's disadvantages relative to a full-caster (being behind at least one spell level, lower caster level, fewer feats to devote to improving their casting) come to the fore. Now, a gish often does help the party casters buff the party (for instance, a gish casting haste on themselves can do it for the rest of the party too, saving the party casters a round and a spell slot) and can throw an occasional battlefield control spell when helpful, but most of the time a gish, like most combat characters, should be focused on attacking the enemy to take them down. A gish works best in a party that has at least one primary caster, and preferably two (arcane and divine, typically): the gish can focus on their core competency (attacking), while helping the casters when the party needs it. For your party, I don't see that you need another combat character. I assume RtToEE is mostly focused on fighting, so you don't need another skills character? Aside from that, I think the builds that would most help the party are a bard or a primary arcane caster. As Mommy was an Orc noted, bardic music will make your party do a lot more damage, you can do some support casting to help like summoning and healing, and you have skills, if that's relevant. A primary arcane caster focusing on battlefield control would also help a lot. Q2- Assuming I go with the Gish (because without some line of thought that would convince me otherwise, I think my party might get the most assistance out of this) let's look at the two builds Darven Ftr 2 / Wiz 4 / SS 4 Ftr 1 / Wiz 6 / SS 1 / EK 2 Of these two I like the Second better... simply because of the higher caster level. Unfortunately we don't have access to UA and I doubt my DM would use it in our current setting. Nor would most of the FR stuff be allowed. As we're currently looking at that material but have decided to leave it for another campaign in another setting. I apologise if I've made some glaring errors But I don't have my books with me... also why Wiz 6 and not Wiz 5? but anyway what do people think of: Human: 1: Ftr 1: EWP Spiked chain, WF Spiked chain, Combat expertise 2: Wiz 1: Scribe Scroll 3: Wiz 2: Power Attack 4: Wiz 3 5: Wiz 4 6: Wiz 5: Extend Spell, Practiced spellcaster 7: Wiz 6: 8: Spellsword 1: -10% ASF 9: EK 1: Arcane Strike, Cleave 10: EK2: People go wizard 6 for +1 to all saves and +1 BAB. I think this illustrates the idiocy of non-fractional progressions. Weapon Focus is a terrible feat unless you're using it to meet a requirement. If you're going to use a spiked chain, I'd go for battlefield control feats before anything else: Improved Trip is a must (why would you even bother with Combat Expertise, otherwise?). Combat Reflexes is another must, IMO. Beyond that, I'd look at Knock-Down, Improved Disarm or Improved Sunder, Hold the Line, and Stand Still (SRD/XPH) (it's not a psionic feat in 3.5 even though it appears in the XPH). Generally, the rule with casting is that once you get 3rd- or 4th-level spells, more casting is better than any other option, so I prefer gish builds with minimal loss of casting. If you're trying to use a spiked chain for battlefield control, the only alternate I'd consider is Ftr 1/Wiz 5 or 6/Sps 3 or 5/EK 10, for the bonus feat (you'll need it) and possibly channel spell.