Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dire_Kitten 10-31-06, 11:36 AM	Hiya guys, I'm new to gaming and have been asked to create a 6th level (human) duskblade to play in an existing campaign. I've read through the various threads from "Optimizing Duskblades" and later, but I am a bit unsure of what feats to select. A number of the suggestions seem like they might be one-trick-ponies (like builds using Leap of the Heavens and Leap Attack) or like they wouldn’t really be effective until very high levels (the ones that get whirlwind attack or use the Enlightened Fist prestige class). Any advice on my build would be greatly appreciated. It should be noted that I have zero experience playing melee classes (I’ve played a sorceress in my one and only other game), and the role I expect this character will play will be a frontline melee fighter. So, my understanding of what’s good in a melee character comes from what worked for the fighter in my last game (i.e., Power Attack). We can use pretty much any non-campaign specific book, though I myself only have access to the "Complete" books, the "Races" books, the PHB2 and core material (I can borrow others if needed). My (tentative) build is: Human Duskblade 6 Str: 17 (+3) Dex: 14 (+2) Con: 16 (+3) Int: 14 (+2) Wis: 11 (0) Cha: 9 (-1) (Though the die rolls above are fixed, I still can reorder my ability scores, to the extent another order would help me.) Feats: 1st level -- Power Attack 1st level (human) -- Improved Toughness 3rd level -- Improved Sunder 6th level -- Combat Brute (9th level -- Arcane Strike) I assume that the character will use a greatsword or other two handed weapon, making power attack and combat brute both useful, and skip using a shield, though I am concerned that his armor class will be unacceptably low for a melee fighter. Even when I am eventually able to afford mithril full plate (perhaps in 2 levels), I expect my AC will be 20-22 (that's 10 base, +8 for the armor, +2 Dex and +0 to +2 magical bonus depending on how much cash I have then), which might be low by optimization standards. I could take Battle Caster instead of Improved Toughness, and that would allow me to wear heavy armor without worrying about its being mithril, but I've been told trhat using a feat to save 9,000 gold is something I’ll later come to regret (as there’s no feat retraining in this campaign). Any advice people have on making the character better, especially with respect to feat selection, would be greatly appreciated. In particular, what feats work well for a Duskblade t levels 6-13? And, am I okay not using a shield, or should I give up on using a two handed weapon so that a shield can add to my armor class? Thanks a lot fior your help!!!
The_Monkey_King 10-31-06, 12:06 PM	Man I wish I had my books around. I thought Imp Toughness had some sort of a prereq? Anyways if you are going for arcane strike (I love that route) I would optimize for that. I would drop the two hander and either go with a shield or two weapon fighting, possibly both by going with the poor man's two weapon fighting found in the PHBII and invest in some shield bashing. The nice thing about that is that its inherently flexible since you get to chose to attack with both weapons or not. Personally I would switch your Int and your con, the 6 extra hps you get at 6th isn't going to be nearly as useful as an extra 3rd level spell (as a spell, or as a +3 to hit and 3d4 damage) or the extra skill point. Sunder is a neat trick I suppose, but trip is better since it doesn't cost you money when you use it. How about going with a tripping two hander? Trust me on this, sunder/disarm are very cool sometimes, but you can't sunder or disarm a bear, but you can still trip him. Those are my thoughts!
Anauroch 10-31-06, 12:20 PM	Arcane strike does sound great... at first... But look at the spell slots you have. There aren't that many. If you start channeling shocking grasps and later vampiric touches through your weapon and are using arcane strike at the same time, then they are gone really quickly. Not a good idea imo. Compare the effect of another channeled spell (5d6 shocking grasp vs. +1 to hit / +1d4 damage or 4d6 with vampiric touch at 9th vs. +3 to hit / +3d4 damage). I agree with the tripping part, though... but you'd need combat expertise for this (you could always drop the improved toughness...).
Dire_Kitten 10-31-06, 12:54 PM	Thanks a lot! I really appreciate the help. My counter-thoughts... Man I wish I had my books around. I thought Imp Toughness had some sort of a prereq? Just base fortitude save +2. Anyways if you are going for arcane strike (I love that route) I would optimize for that. I would drop the two hander and either go with a shield or two weapon fighting, possibly both by going with the poor man's two weapon fighting found in the PHBII and invest in some shield bashing. The Arcane Strike feat says that you channel the to hit bonus and damange into "a single melee weapon." Doesn't that mean 2-weapon fighting doesn't really work with it? Personally I would switch your Int and your con, the 6 extra hps you get at 6th isn't going to be nearly as useful as an extra 3rd level spell (as a spell, or as a +3 to hit and 3d4 damage) or the extra skill point. I don't get third-level spells just yet (not until 9th level), and I am assuming that by then I can find a way to bump my Int up by two points. That was my thinking at least. Skill points are nice though. Sunder is a neat trick I suppose, but trip is better since it doesn't cost you money when you use it. How about going with a tripping two hander? Trust me on this, sunder/disarm are very cool sometimes, but you can't sunder or disarm a bear, but you can still trip him. Improved Sunder is there because it is a prerequiste for Combat Brute. Combat Brute (amongst other things) will allow me to increase the modfier on my power attack to x3 on a two handed weapon on the round after a charge. (So, I could power attack in certain cases, take a -6 penalty on my attack roll, but get +18 damage if I hit. Because it's the round after a charge, unlike Leap Attack, I'd get that bonus as part of my full attack action. At 11th level, then, I could charge (and Power Attack for x2 damage), then in the next round take three attacks while Power Attacking for (as an example) -5 to hit on each, but +15 to damage per hit I land). One question I have is, does using Power Attack make my secondary/tertiary.etc. attacks so unlikely to hit with the penalty that the extra damage I am anticipating isn't really a factor? Those are my thoughts! They're very helpful! They give me a lot to think about. Arcane strike does sound great... at first... But look at the spell slots you have. There aren't that many. If you start channeling shocking grasps and later vampiric touches through your weapon and are using arcane strike at the same time, then they are gone really quickly. Not a good idea imo. Compare the effect of another channeled spell (5d6 shocking grasp vs. +1 to hit / +1d4 damage or 4d6 with vampiric touch at 9th vs. +3 to hit / +3d4 damage). I agree with the tripping part, though... but you'd need combat expertise for this (you could always drop the improved toughness...). Thanks for these thoughts too! The thing about Arcane Strike that is appealing, is that you can channel as a free action, and it adds bonuses to every attack in the round. So that means I can use it as part of a full attack action. So, the more attacks I have, the more benefit I get from the feat, because each one gets the bonus to-hit and to damage. Especially with Combat Brute in the mix, I can use the to-hit bonus from the Arcane Strike to partially offset the penalty of Power Attacking...enabling me to get more of the x3 goodness that the Combat Brute feat allows (and Arcane Strike gives me a small damage boost to each attack I land on top of that to-hit bonus. Mmmm ... gravy ...). You are right that I have been ignoring the drain on my spells, though. I'll need to think about that harder.
Anauroch 10-31-06, 01:09 PM	Thanks for these thoughts too! The thing about Arcane Strike that is appealing, is that you can channel as a free action, and it adds bonuses to every attack in the round. So that means I can use it as part of a full attack action. So, the more attacks I have, the more benefit I get from the feat. Especially with Combat Brute in the mix, I can use the to-hit bonus to offset the penalty of Power attacking...enabling me to get more of the x3 goodness that the Combat Brute feat allows. You are right that I have been ignoring the drain on my spells, though. I'll need to think about that harder. Well, and I didn't look up Combat Brute to see what it does... thanks for clarifying that... In that case, arcane strike might be a worthwhile investment. Just don't use it too often! Use a third level spell slot on that full round attack action and only take a -5 to attack (power attack), then you should be fine! It all depends on what kind of enemy you are facing though... if it is one with a high AC, then use arcane strike and channel shocking grasps while only attack once with your weapon... Your character isn't really optimized in this case, but you are somewhat versatile... somewhat... as long as the character is fun, that's fine, eh? ;)
Tleilaxu_Ghola 10-31-06, 01:13 PM	Whatever anyone else says, arcane strike is the way to go with duskblade! You have more spell slots per spell level than even sorcerers have! Spell slots should not be an issue. Yes you'll burn 'em fast, but there seriously aren't very many good spells on the duskblade list. You'd be just as good (or better) with an arcane strike and a full attack, than a single channeled strike.
Dire_Kitten 10-31-06, 01:19 PM	Your character isn't really optimized in this case, but you are somewhat versatile... somewhat... as long as the character is fun, that's fine, eh? ;) Of course fun, is the ultimate goal...but optimization is fun all by itself. ;) I'm not married to the feats I've picked even slightly. I merely threw them out because they were what I was thinking of *as* optimized. If there's another feat progression that is "more optimal", I've simply missed it due to inexperience. So please feel free to continue sharing your wisdom with my unworthy self!!! :bow:
The_Monkey_King 10-31-06, 01:32 PM	The Arcane Strike feat says that you channel the to hit bonus and damange into "a single melee weapon." Doesn't that mean 2-weapon fighting doesn't really work with it? Well, as TG says, you have a ton of spells, and this is dependent on the style of game you are in, but this is sort of the thing that you wouldn't use most of the time. But when you did, you would make your DM cry. If I recall its a free action to use arcane strike, so you can do more than one in a round...so you toss two 5th level spells down the hole, and each weapon has a +5 to hit, for +5d4 damage, even your itterative attacks are going to hit.... Of course if its a swift action, that wont work, more of that wishing I had the books in front of me. If you're going with combat brute, you might also want to think about shock trooper. Its amazingly broken you ask me... Toss out ac instead of hit for your power attacks.... And of course there's the armband of might or whatever, be sure you get one of those, its cheap and ever so yummy.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 10-31-06, 01:44 PM	It's a free action. :D Cheese away!
PhoenixInferno 10-31-06, 01:45 PM	Shock Trooper is usually a higher priority than Combat Brute.
DaveTheMagicWeasel 10-31-06, 01:46 PM	If you do go down the TWF route then using a Double Weapon is the best option - since its a single weapon Arcane Strike bonuses apply on attacks with both ends. (Although, its probably best to check that interpretation with your DM before trying it)
Dire_Kitten 10-31-06, 02:19 PM	Well, as TG says, you have a ton of spells, and this is dependent on the style of game you are in, but this is sort of the thing that you wouldn't use most of the time. But when you did, you would make your DM cry. If I recall its a free action to use arcane strike, so you can do more than one in a round...so you toss two 5th level spells down the hole, and each weapon has a +5 to hit, for +5d4 damage, even your itterative attacks are going to hit.... Of course if its a swift action, that wont work, more of that wishing I had the books in front of me. If you're going with combat brute, you might also want to think about shock trooper. Its amazingly broken you ask me... Toss out ac instead of hit for your power attacks.... And of course there's the armband of might or whatever, be sure you get one of those, its cheap and ever so yummy. You're completely right!! :cheer: It's a free action! I completely missed the possibility of using it twice in the same round. So I could channel two spells in one round using Arcane Strike. At 13th level, I'll also be able to use the Duskblade's channeling as part of a full attack. I definitely need to think about that (although it would require me getting my dexterity up to 15, which I could do with my 4th level ability bump). On Shock Trooper, the issue is that I only have 5 feats through 9th level (and 9th level is Arcane Strike). Since both Shock Trooper and Combat Brute require a BAB of +6 I could only take one of them at 6th level. I avoided Shock Trooper because I was already concerned about my AC, though I suppose if I take Improved Shield Bash (way the heck down the road) and go the Two-Weapon Fighting route, the Shield counteracts the AC hit from Shock Trooper. I think my feats would then look like: 1st: Power Attack Human: Improved Bull Rush 3rd: Two Weapon Fighting 6th: Shock Trooper 9th: Arcane Strike 12th: Improved Shield Bash I'm tempted to say that it wouldn't be worth even buying a shield until 12th level, but if I used a regular light weapon in my off hand, I'd not be able to cast spells (not without the Somatic Weaponry feat). With a light shield in my off hand, I could still cast when need be, even though I would not get the benefit of its AC when using a full attack (when charging to use my Shock Trooper ability, though, the shield would bolster my AC). Do you think this would be stronger than the two-handed weapon/Combat Brute build? (Edit: I suppose, rethinking it, rather than using a shield to hedge the AC deficiency exacerbated by Shock Trooper's charging ability, I could go with: 1st: Power Attack Human: Improved Bull Rush 3rd: Combat Expertise 6th: Shock Trooper 9th: Arcane Strike 12th: Improved Trip and use a two-handed weapon. If I really feel I am on the verge of being killed I can use Combat Expertise instead of a shield. Shock Trooper seems better for its tripping ability than for its use on a charge though, so I would think Improved Trip is a "must have" when using that feat.
Anauroch 10-31-06, 02:31 PM	Whatever anyone else says, arcane strike is the way to go with duskblade! You have more spell slots per spell level than even sorcerers have! Spell slots should not be an issue. Okay, let's compare sorcerer and duskblade at level 9 when you are planning on taking arcane strike... Duskblade (Int 16): 1st level: 8 2nd leve: 7 3rd level: 3 Sorcerer (Cha 18 - would probably be higher as highest priority for sorcerer): 1st level: 7 2nd level: 7 3rd level: 7 4th level: 5 Now I do see a difference there... In your scenario I would rather not use those 3rd level spells slots for arcane strike... but go with the 2nd level ones... or even a 1st level one or two... All in all, you will be dealing quite an amount of damage and the occassional arcane strike will add only a little to it. This might change at later levels where it becomes important to hit with those iterative attacks and where the arcane strike damage is getting more effective... At 13th level you could use a full attack to attack your nearest enemies, channeling vampiric touch to affect all attacks (or whatever other spell you prefer) and use a third level spell slot for arcane strike... sounds goood... :)
Momar 10-31-06, 02:46 PM	An animated shield is your friend.
Cael 10-31-06, 02:57 PM	Arcane strike does sound great... at first... But look at the spell slots you have. There aren't that many. If you start channeling shocking grasps and later vampiric touches through your weapon and are using arcane strike at the same time, then they are gone really quickly. Not a good idea imo. Compare the effect of another channeled spell (5d6 shocking grasp vs. +1 to hit / +1d4 damage or 4d6 with vampiric touch at 9th vs. +3 to hit / +3d4 damage). I agree with the tripping part, though... but you'd need combat expertise for this (you could always drop the improved toughness...). This is the reason why I prefer Sorcerer gishes when I am going the Arcane Strike way. Fighter 2/Sorc 4/Spellsword 5/Eldritch Knight 9 BAB 18 CL 15 Channel Spells, Arcane Strike + sheer number of Sorcerer spells = lots of pain
Anauroch 10-31-06, 03:10 PM	Yeah, or go the monk/sorcerer/enlightened fist route... Using arcane strike, ascetic mage, arcane fist and hold ray to best advantage... ouch... ;) Okay, back to the duskblade! :)
HairyApe 10-31-06, 04:21 PM	What about using a greatsword and spiked armor. Replace Imp. Shield Bash with TWF. It's allowable and also lets you keep the power-attack THF bonuses. THF with TWF is the neatest. You could also go TW Pounce this way.
Pandaemoni 11-02-06, 01:10 AM	I like the Combat Brute line. I am also putting together a Duskblade and am considering: 1st: Power Attack Human: Improved Sunder 3rd: Leap of the Heavens 6th: Combat Brute 9th: Leap Attack 12th: Fell Drain That build would be a bit heavy on charging, for my tastes, but when you did charge (using a two-handed weapon) you'd get a x3 Power Attack at the end of the charge from Leap Attack, then you could take a full attack the following round with a similar x3 benefit. At 13th level you could couple that with Fell Drain Shocking Grasps as part of a full attack, draining multiple levels per round. Arcane Strike might be slightly better in many circumstances, but Fell Drain really whittles down powerful enemies. Another possibility is to combine Shock Trooper and Karmic Strike, but it takes a long time unless your DM will allow you to take flaws. The advantage is that, with Shock Trooper on the charge you have to take an AC adjustment of at least -7. Against most enemies you might as well just (i) accept that you are going to get hit by your target due to your low AC, (ii) accept the -4 AC penalty from Karmic Strike, (iii) throw every point of BAB you can into the Power Attack and (iv) sit secure in the knowledge that when you do get hit, which is inevitable, that will just trigger a free extra attack from you, extending the value of your arcane channeled spell. That would look something like: 1st: Power Attack, Combat Expertise Flaw: Dodge 3rd: Improved Bull Rush 6th: Shock Trooper 9th: Karmic Strike From there you could continue with: 12th: Combat Reflexes (more Karmic Strikes) 15th: Improved Sunder 18th: Combat Brute Combat Brute is great because, as Dire Kitten noted, the bonus it gives to your Power Attack can be combined with a full attack, and hence combined with both (i) multiple heightened power attacks and (ii) arcane channeling (full attack). It should make for a great follow up move after the Shock Trooper charge. (At least in theory....as I've never seen this build played). My Duskblade, in any event, will follow something like this, so perhaps I'll see.
Daergal_the_Black 11-02-06, 02:11 PM	I prefer Duskblades that become AoO/multiattack specialists. EWP spiked chain Combat Reflexes Combat Expertise Dodge Mobility Spring Attack Whirlwind Attack That's a lot of feats, but well worth it, in my opinion. Edit: Actually...the order in which you take the feats depends on how you want to play, especially since you are starting out low-level. I'd say you either take the feats in the order listed (allowing you to take many AoOs, but you might mnot get Whirlwind Attack by 12th level--and you'll want it before 13th level). You could alternately take them in this order: EWP spiked chain Combat Expertise Dodge Mobility Spring Attack Whirlwind Attack Combat Reflexes I think it is entirely worth taking two flaws, so that you can get that package as early as possible. For example: 1st: EWP spiked chain Human: Combat Reflexes Flaw 1: Combat Expertise Flaw 2: Dodge 3rd: Mobility 6th: Spring Attack 9th: Whirlwind Attack That frees up your 12th level feat for something less build specific, like Versatile Spellcaster, or Arcane Strike
Dire_Kitten 11-02-06, 03:42 PM	I like the Combat Brute line. I am also putting together a Duskblade and am considering: 1st: Power Attack Human: Improved Sunder 3rd: Leap of the Heavens 6th: Combat Brute 9th: Leap Attack 12th: Fell Drain <snip> 1st: Power Attack, Combat Expertise Flaw: Dodge 3rd: Improved Bull Rush 6th: Shock Trooper 9th: Karmic Strike From there you could continue with: 12th: Combat Reflexes (more Karmic Strikes) 15th: Improved Sunder 18th: Combat Brute Thanks a lot. I have to admit that I really don't understand why people are quite so fond of Shock Trooper. Your Power Attacks hit more with it, but you are limited to a single attack in that round and you are, basically, going to be hit yourself. Can someone explain to me why that's a good trade? I suppose I see it more with Karmic Strike added on, but Karmic Strike requires a lot of feats. The combination of Leap Attack with Combat Brute I reall like though. That's two rounds of very respectible attacks. I prefer Duskblades that become AoO/multiattack specialists. EWP spiked chain Combat Reflexes Combat Expertise Dodge Mobility Spring Attack Whirlwind Attack Thanks to you as well. That is a few too many feats for my build. It would be great at 13th level and above, but that's seven levels and might take me a year of playing, if I survive. I don't think my DM will allow flaws, as he'd consider it too cheesy.
Big D 11-02-06, 04:29 PM	1) Arcane Strike 2) Ring of Wizardry (best you can afford--heck, consider 2) 3) ??? 4) Profit Also, consider an animated shield later on and use a great-something. Or... get friendly with the party casters and get Greater Mighty Wallop put on a greatclub.
ChristopherGroves 11-02-06, 05:20 PM	I wouldn't discount the 2-hander with armor spikes as your second weapon for two weapon fighting if that's allowed. It would also let you use a 2-handed long-tripper / pole-arm if you wanted and still threaten near you.
Lemos 11-06-06, 04:43 AM	I am presently playing a level 13 half-elf duskblade in a campain. My feats are: Dodge Mobility Combat expertise Spring attack Shield Warden Whirlwind attack We got a bonus feat too. Anyways how I see it is that the powers from the class are self-comboing, you don't really need to spend feats to improve your damage ( rather spend feats to improve your attack ). Didn't get the chance to whirlwind while channeling yet; but i'm quite sure it will kick ass. As for my gear, well I am using teh shield and longsword, our fighter wants to dish damage so he's builded for 2 weapon fighting ( using 2 bastard swords ) so basically i am the tank. I have 39 ac and 160something hps, and when a big boss is pounding me hardcore, I channel vamp touch and can resist quite nicely. Anyways, as an advice, if you really want to do more dps, i'd go dual wield feats. They will not pay off untill level 13, but when you are there it will be insane; 6 attacks each channeling a spell ! Using scorching ray, that's 6x12d6 (if all hits land ) or enervation 6x 1d4 neg levels. At first I had a greatsword and a buckler for a while. Then I realized that weapon damage doesn't matter that much, what does matter really is how long i will be able to live to dish out that damage. my 3 cents