Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kross 03-11-05, 10:46 AM	i want to build a human fighter - basically i want some of those massive dmg guys. i was thinking something like this human feat: Luck of Heros (+1 ac, +1 all saves) level 1 feat: armor focus [dm issued armor] (+2 ac) fighter 1 feat: weapon focus (scimitar) fighter 2 feat: TWF level 3 feat: power attack fighter 4 feat: weapon specialisation (scimitar) fighter 6 feat: ITWF level 6 feat: cleave fighter 8 feat: greater weapon focus (scimitar) level 9 feat: greater cleave fighter 10 feat: dodge do you think this is a good build? if not give me some suggestions or im thinking of a human > fighter > order of the bow
Khazra Reborn 03-11-05, 11:12 AM	TWF? Scimitar? You want dervish levels!
DM Denubis 03-11-05, 01:13 PM	Two Weapon Fighting is rather sub-par for a straight fighter progression. Why? Your best AC bonus is going to come from your heavy armor. If you're wearing heavy armor, the 17 you put into dex so you could take Improved Two Weapon Fighting is going to waste. If you want massive damage, I suggest the following. Barbarian 6/Fighter 4/Frenzied Berserker 10 Barb 1 - Power Attack, Cleave Barb 2 Barb 3 - Intimidating Rage Barb 4 Figter 1 - Mounted Combat Fighter 2 - Destructive Rage, Ride-By Attack FB 1 FB 2 FB 3 - Spirited Charge FB 4 FB 5 FB 6 - Leap Attack FB 7 FB 8 FB 9 - Weapon Focus (Lance) FB 10 Fighter 3 Fighter 4 - Weapon Specialization (Lance), (Free feat) Barb 4 Barb 6 This build gives you the ability to Power Attack like never before. Granted, it is a bit of a one-trick pony, but it's a good trick to have. I believe, with funny D&D math included, it comes out to power attacking in a 1:18 ratio. Can someone check me on this? The multipliers are 4 (Supreme Power Attack), 3 (Leap Attack), and 3 (Spirited Charge, which effects the entire thing, not just Power Attack). (4+(3-1))*3 = 18 Scrollreader, if you're reading this, you have an extremely good command of the odd D&D math functions, so if you could verify this... That'd be great. *Edit.* On further investigation, I noticed that the Frenzied Berserker's Supreme Power Attack is NOT a multiplier. Therefore, they stack perfectly. (4*3)*3 = 36 Throw in a valorous lance... ((4*3)*3)*2 = 72. So with the right equipment, you could be power attacking on a 1:72 ratio. Just remember potions of Lion's Pounce, so you can use a full attack after a charge!
scrollreader 03-11-05, 01:29 PM	Not a multiplier? Sweet GoogaMooga. You're right. :eek: Wooooow. That's hella broken. But to answer the first poster, If you want alot of damage, Frenzied berserker is the way to go.
DM Denubis 03-11-05, 01:40 PM	Could you imagine the look on your DM's face when you say you're power attacking for twenty?
carnivore 03-11-05, 02:10 PM	:OMG! wow
mikeatuconn 03-11-05, 02:43 PM	it wouldnt be that ridiculously much, The Leap attack essentially would improve the power attack by one step, so the 4:1 would become 5:1, then the tripling would occur due to spirited charge...thus 15:1 power attack with a two handed lance which is still pretty obscene and enough to make me think about changing my frenzied berserker that i'm playing now.
DM Denubis 03-11-05, 02:49 PM	I beg to differ. The Frenzied Berserker's ability is NOT a multiplier. Rather, it's a variable. Therefore, it stacks perfectly with Leap Attack, which multiplies ONLY power attack damage. Then, Spirited Charge multiplies the ENITRE damage base, which also stacks. Then, throw in a valorous lance. (((4*3)*3)*2) = 72 In a way, it's layered.
Kross 03-11-05, 02:57 PM	problem with this build is dm will not let me have a mount.
DM Denubis 03-11-05, 03:30 PM	.... He won't let you have a mount? .... Why? That's fairly odd... Alright, anyhow, try for the Unearthed Arcana's variant Paladin of Freedom. He's a Chaotic Good paladin, basically. Instead, go Barbarian 2/Paladin of Freedom 2/Fighter 2/Frenzied Berserker 10/Paladin of Freedom 3/Barbarian 1 Well, it involves juggling levels, but it'll get you that mount without experience penalties.
Kross 03-11-05, 03:34 PM	evil camp, lol sorry
DM Denubis 03-11-05, 04:01 PM	You know, all this information could've been helpful beforehand... Go for the Paladin of Slaughter then... The Chatic Evil one. If they get a mount. Which I think they do.
Aricandor 03-11-05, 04:11 PM	Tsk, don't listen to these cheesers! That 1:72 ratio with PA will make your DM go berserk and throw an optimized Hulking Hurler at you. ;) Anyway, that combo will hurt a lot, and if raw damage is your thing, go ahead. If you want to go the TWF route, consider getting something like Ftr4/Bbn 1(for rage and fast movement)/Dervish 10/Tempest 5. If you got good int, trade 2 ftr levels and the bbn level for Swashbuckler levels (Int to damage, free weapon finesse, which is a prereq for Dervish IIRC) I'm not too keen on min/maxxing though, and there almost certainly is a better way to do this. Just keep in mind the Dervish is the key to getting 288 attacks/round. ;)
Snicker-Snack 03-11-05, 04:51 PM	If you really intend to go four full levels of fighter ant take weapon specialization, which is usually considered a bad feat, you might as well use the feat for something useful. Grab three or four levels of Planar Champion (from Manual of the Planes). It will give you a Favored Plane, works like the 3.0 ranger's favored enemy (a nice DM may allow you to use 3.5 bonus, but from the description you gave of your DM, I don't think he will), except that it functions against all creatures of a certain plane: The Material Plane is a good choice in here :). You also get see invisibility always on, and the ability to Attack ethereal creatures. Granted, It won't do much for your sheer damage dealing capabilities, but it helps in some key areas that pure melee characters usually lack.
Jeremymc 03-11-05, 05:03 PM	Is there any actual rule that states that variable-bonus abilities that provide a similar bonus stack with each other? Most things in 3.5 like to overlap. Maybe this is one of those things which overlap. And that 1:72 ratio also assumes that things multiply out in the order that you say they do. The order of operations is extremely sketchy. In fact, totally sketchy, as there is no rule of precedence. Edit: Big-time problem. Upon review of all the evidence, that build is totally illegal. The FB's Frenzy ability states that she can't use any Dex-based skills. And Ride is a Dex-based skill. So what would happen is that she would frenzy, spur her mount, fall off, and once she receives damage from the horse, turn around and hack him to pieces.
Caelic 03-11-05, 06:33 PM	You have to admit, though, it's a pretty funny mental image. "RrrrRRRAAAAGH!" *Thud* "Oooof! STUPID HORSE!" *hack, maim, shred*
DM Denubis 03-11-05, 06:43 PM	Damn, really? I thought it was only the mental stat abilities he couldn't use... Hmm... Must find a way around this... Must complete 1:72 ratio...
Lakom 03-11-05, 07:02 PM	Centaur? You are mounted to good on those four legs to fall off.
Tytalus 03-11-05, 08:56 PM	And that 1:72 ratio also assumes that things multiply out in the order that you say they do. The order of operations is extremely sketchy. In fact, totally sketchy, as there is no rule of precedence. Huh? Multiplications are commutative, i.e. the order of operands does not matter.
DM Denubis 03-11-05, 11:52 PM	Big-time problem. Upon review of all the evidence, that build is totally illegal. The FB's Frenzy ability states that she can't use any Dex-based skills. And Ride is a Dex-based skill. So what would happen is that she would frenzy, spur her mount, fall off, and once she receives damage from the horse, turn around and hack him to pieces. Now, of course, you WOULD be correct... If it happened in that order! For one thing, you don't have to make a "Stay in Saddle" in check every single round. But that's not my main argument. My main argument is that what if he spurs his mount, THEN frenzies, then leaps off to activate Leap Attack, and cleaves an enemy in half. Come to think about it, the cleave and Supreme Cleave attempts alone would be absolutely sickening. Now, is this loophole viable enough for you?
Jeremymc 03-12-05, 02:12 AM	Now, of course, you WOULD be correct... If it happened in that order! For one thing, you don't have to make a "Stay in Saddle" in check every single round. But that's not my main argument. My main argument is that what if he spurs his mount, THEN frenzies, then leaps off to activate Leap Attack, and cleaves an enemy in half. Come to think about it, the cleave and Supreme Cleave attempts alone would be absolutely sickening. Now, is this loophole viable enough for you? Well it might be, Mr. Smugly McSmugenstein of Smugway Manor. If only that loophole ACTUALLY existed. First off, dismounting a horse as a free action requires a DC 20 Ride Check. Which you can't do while you're frenzied. You can't simply leap out of the saddle, it doesn't work that way. And dismounting regularly requires a move action, which can't be done at the end of a charge. And since you cannot perform a free action WHILE performing another free action (it goes one, then the other), you cannot both dismount and frenzy in the same round. And secondly, it's not really a rule-hole, as you have to remain mounted to use the "Spirited Charge" feat. The moment you leap off the horse you lose that, and then you're just another Joe Berzerker using leap attack during a running charge. And really... optimizing characters is only fun when your characters are plausible within the system of rules that allows the game to function as a whole. Which means bending the rules while respecting the intent of the designers at all times. That's why the absolutely ludicrous 40 class levels and 124 caster level of the Will and Word builds were so hated, while a good MasTran build, though bendy of the rules, is generally not totally despised.
DM Denubis 03-12-05, 02:20 AM	You bring up good points... See, I'm still in the "triggered abilites" mindset. I see, "If your mount charges..." blah blah blah, so on and so forth. So, if said mount charges... This happens. Which is wrong, I suppose. And you don't really need to frenzy anyway, when you think about it. Frenzy is more of a penalty than a bonus anyhow. So, the way I see it, you could perform a fast dismount... Or maybe, if your HORSE had a really good Jump check... Hmm... *Edit.* On further inspection, this silly idea won't work either. What a shame. By the way, I sincerely apologize if I came off smugly. And I mean that. That was not my intent in any way, shape or form.
Jeremymc 03-12-05, 03:17 AM	Don't worry about it. I wasn't being serious. Thus the elaborately comic "smug"-based English Manor address. Only jerks like me are vulgar and smug. That's our bailiwick.
DM Denubis 03-12-05, 03:37 AM	Technically, Spirited Charge doesn't say you need to be on the mount a the end... Hmm.. Momentum, perhaps? Think about it... A fast dismount is a free action, and a jump check is a nonaction. All you have to do is make the long jump DC... Yeah. There's nothing as pathetic as grasping at straws. I guess we can't factor Leap Attack into it, leaving us with a 1:24 ratio. *Tear.*
Dain 03-12-05, 06:30 AM	To get back to the original poster: If you want to fight with two scimitars you need to get into the Dervish PrC ASAP. You need to avoid Frenzied Berserker because chances are that you'll end up killing your entire party. If you want to follow through on that Order of the Bow Initiate thing, a good start would be Ranger 2/Fighter 4/OotBI 10 - nice and clean. - Dain
Otto the Bugbear 03-12-05, 07:21 AM	I'm with Dain on the FB thing. It's a great class from an optimization standpoint. It certainly stacks up the damage numbers in an impressive way. However, it should be renamed the CD: campaign destroyer. There are ways to keep the FB from destroying a campaign, but it's still not worth it. Also, having seen one in play, I got the impression that they tend to not last too long. That deathless frenzy looks nice on the character sheet, but tends to be much more fatal than people realize. Why not go for both? Fighting with two scimitars and being able to use a bow really well isn't out of the realm of possibility. The main trick is to pick one to focus on more, and only invest enough in the other to make your character concept work well. It's too early for a full build, so I'm not going to do that ;). For archery major / 2 scimitar minor just take mostly archery feats/classes (including the requirements for OotBI) and a couple scimitar feats. I'd probably pick up TWF, Weapon Finesse, ITWF and leave it at that. Leave the ITWF for later levels, like 10+. OotBI, Deepwood Sniper and Peerless Archer are the PrCs to look at. For 2 scimitar major / archery minor just take mostly scimitar feats/classes and a couple archery feats. I'd probably pick Precise Shot and one archery trick (ranged disarm or ranged trip are groovy). Swashbuckler is the class and Dervish is the PrC to look at in this instance. In either case, I'd recommend taking some anti magic capabilities in either the feats (found in Complete Arcane) or classes (Occult Slayer!). One alternative is to drop the 2 scimitar thought and go with a big two handed weapon. It's easier on feats and it will provide more opportunity for damage. Leap attack is really good regardless of taking FB or not. Cheers Otto :)