Advice on a Wiz /Psi [Archive] - Wizards Community

Advice on a Wiz /Psi [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
GOLDSMITH
07-30-04, 03:07 AM I will soon be playing a wizard /psion in Forgotten Realms who would specialize in summoning. I hoping that someone could provide me with some suggestions on how to improve my character. Also do you think it better to be a variant conjurer or a domain wizard with the summoning domain (just like the cleric’s domain)?

Almost everything in 3.5 is allowed, except for anything related to dark sun. There is no difference in metamagic and psionic feats, one feat will work for both spells and powers. I am also allowed to take a feat instead of a familiar and I can also change scribe scroll to any other feat. The below stats are roll and can not be changed, but can be moved around.

Race: Human
Build: Wizard 3 / Erudite 3 / Cerebremancer 4 / Mind Mage 10

Str 10
Dex 17
Con 14
Int 17
Wis 12
Chr 11

Feats: 1st level (Human: Otherworldly, 1st level: Hidden
Talent (Astral Construct), Familiar: Nexus Method,
Scribe Scroll: Augment Summoning or Practiced
Spell Caster/Manifester)

2nd level: (Psion bonus feat: Dual-plane Summons,
Psicrystal: Boost Construct)

3rd level: Harden Energy

6th level: Craft Wondrous Item

9th level: Empower

12th level: Craft Wand

15th level: Quicken spell/power

18th level:?
catharz
07-30-04, 03:20 AM Looks great. I would take Psion over Erudite, because I think the contrast works better with this kind of build, but the choice is mainly aesthetic.

There is a Dragon magazine regional feat (actually for the Greyhawk campaign setting), Nexus method, which works very well with Dual-plane summoning. I would take it instead on Hidden talent if possible.

You don't actually need to take a feat to learn Astral construct, you can learn it from a Power stone, or as a Psion, burn (100?) xp to research it.

If you start playing a lower the 6th level, a level progression of ABAABB or ABBBAA would work best. That way you're generally more powerful at level two and four, and only slightly less powerful at 3.

The Domain wizard is just plain better then the normal Wizard, but I woulden't play a Conjurer (variant or otherwise).
GOLDSMITH
07-30-04, 03:33 AM Hey, Thanks Catharz! :D

The reason that I was thinking about going with the conjurer variant is because summoning spells become a standard action instead of a full round. Other than that I can duplicate everything. Any advice on what would feat to take at 18th level?
catharz
07-30-04, 04:39 PM Well, if you can use Tomb and blood, nothing can contest the ultimate power of Chain spell metamagic. You get caster level/2 spell instances (IIRC) for the price of +3 to the spell level (which you can buy off).
The DC and damage dice go down, but who cares if you're using it to buff the entire party?

I also just noticed you don't have Persistant spell (PGtF). You could do a lot of fun stuff with persistant spell and Compensation.
Xzoltar
07-30-04, 11:27 PM Metamagic you really need for this kind of built : Extend Spell , Persistent Spell and Twin Spell.

I will probablly drop Quicken Spell and change it for on of theses feats because you can emulate the quicken spell ability via using Schism ( telepathy power lvl 4 ) , try to take 2 flaws if possible to have the feat you're missing.

Dont listen to those that will tell you that this built is not really good becasue your 5 level behind in both your spellcasting and manifesting spells/powers.

If you decide to choose the Practiced xxxster feat, choose the one for Psion because you will gain more from it ( more lvl = more PFP you can spend = better the schism power is and more powerful easy you can use your Metamagic enhancement, I love Twin Spell with Augmented Mind Thrust or Mind Rape ( not sure, but its the power that make the target lose level )

Enjoy
Qaetar
07-31-04, 12:01 AM In general, summoning when you're behind on spell levels is a sub-par tactic. At level 6, you'll still be summoning level 2 Summon Monster/Astral Construct spells, which are rather pitiful to...anyone.

(Qaetar)
catharz
07-31-04, 02:37 AM Originally posted by Qaetar
In general, summoning when you're behind on spell levels is a sub-par tactic. At level 6, you'll still be summoning level 2 Summon Monster/Astral Construct spells, which are rather pitiful to...anyone.

(Qaetar)

This is the only build that can decently cast Summon monster/Astral constructs, and I would therefore call it the best.
I suppose you *could* do it with a Psion 1/Wizard, but IMO that would be a huge waste.

At any rate, calling out the weakest level in the build as a reason to avoid one of its main tactics proves nothing.

Summon monster is one of the *best* tactics for any multicaster, because you don't need to worry about DCs or damage dice, and dispelling them works in your favor.
Qaetar
07-31-04, 10:06 PM Well, at level 17 you've got 7th Level summons coming up. Those are CR 7, CR 6, CR 8 creatures.

I think a Mystic Theurge is a better Summoner than the Cerebremancer because at least Quicken Spell, Augmented Summoning, etc. help all your summons.

At any given level, your summons are one or two spell levels behind, when the CR of the summons already increases at a rate slower than your opponents. Sounds like a losing battle to me.

(Qaetar)
catharz
07-31-04, 11:21 PM Originally posted by Qaetar
Well, at level 17 you've got 7th Level summons coming up. Those are CR 7, CR 6, CR 8 creatures.

I think a Mystic Theurge is a better Summoner than the Cerebremancer because at least Quicken Spell, Augmented Summoning, etc. help all your summons.

At any given level, your summons are one or two spell levels behind, when the CR of the summons already increases at a rate slower than your opponents. Sounds like a losing battle to me.

(Qaetar)

First of all you aren't factoring in any of the summoning-augmentation abilities the character has to figure out the spell's relative power..
Secondly, the Mind mage gains just as much benefit from the listed feats as a Mystic theurge, and probably more. And Compensation is at least as effective as Divine metamagic.
Xzoltar
08-01-04, 07:40 AM Compensation : Let you add lot of metamagic feat to your spells , a good one is Twin Spell, you will summon double amount of Creature.

Twin Well Same Source : Your Caster level is at least 5 more than the Straight Wizard or Cleric in the group, so your summon last longer.

Astral Construct : Your Monster gain at top of their abilities, Astral Construct augmentation for almost no cost.

Then you have the same things as a normal wizard you can do, more Metamagic, Augment Sumonning feat, etc...

Let's compare lvl 20 Wizard vs lvl 20 Mindmage ( 3/3/4/10 ) for sumonning :

Wizard : he can't use metamagic because its a lvl 9 spell, he summon a Astral Deva adding is Augment Sumonning feat

- 1 Astral Deva ( 20 rds , +4 For , +4 Con , 126 Pv )

Mindmage : He cast a Twin Summon Monster IX calling 2 Astral Deva that are augmenting with the Astral Construct abilities and the Augment Sumonning feat.

- 2 Astral Deva ( 25 rds , +4 For , +4 Con , 156 Pv , Always Invisible )

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
GOLDSMITH 07-30-04, 03:07 AM	I will soon be playing a wizard /psion in Forgotten Realms who would specialize in summoning. I hoping that someone could provide me with some suggestions on how to improve my character. Also do you think it better to be a variant conjurer or a domain wizard with the summoning domain (just like the cleric’s domain)? Almost everything in 3.5 is allowed, except for anything related to dark sun. There is no difference in metamagic and psionic feats, one feat will work for both spells and powers. I am also allowed to take a feat instead of a familiar and I can also change scribe scroll to any other feat. The below stats are roll and can not be changed, but can be moved around. Race: Human Build: Wizard 3 / Erudite 3 / Cerebremancer 4 / Mind Mage 10 Str 10 Dex 17 Con 14 Int 17 Wis 12 Chr 11 Feats: 1st level (Human: Otherworldly, 1st level: Hidden Talent (Astral Construct), Familiar: Nexus Method, Scribe Scroll: Augment Summoning or Practiced Spell Caster/Manifester) 2nd level: (Psion bonus feat: Dual-plane Summons, Psicrystal: Boost Construct) 3rd level: Harden Energy 6th level: Craft Wondrous Item 9th level: Empower 12th level: Craft Wand 15th level: Quicken spell/power 18th level:?
catharz 07-30-04, 03:20 AM	Looks great. I would take Psion over Erudite, because I think the contrast works better with this kind of build, but the choice is mainly aesthetic. There is a Dragon magazine regional feat (actually for the Greyhawk campaign setting), Nexus method, which works very well with Dual-plane summoning. I would take it instead on Hidden talent if possible. You don't actually need to take a feat to learn Astral construct, you can learn it from a Power stone, or as a Psion, burn (100?) xp to research it. If you start playing a lower the 6th level, a level progression of ABAABB or ABBBAA would work best. That way you're generally more powerful at level two and four, and only slightly less powerful at 3. The Domain wizard is just plain better then the normal Wizard, but I woulden't play a Conjurer (variant or otherwise).
GOLDSMITH 07-30-04, 03:33 AM	Hey, Thanks Catharz! :D The reason that I was thinking about going with the conjurer variant is because summoning spells become a standard action instead of a full round. Other than that I can duplicate everything. Any advice on what would feat to take at 18th level?
catharz 07-30-04, 04:39 PM	Well, if you can use Tomb and blood, nothing can contest the ultimate power of Chain spell metamagic. You get caster level/2 spell instances (IIRC) for the price of +3 to the spell level (which you can buy off). The DC and damage dice go down, but who cares if you're using it to buff the entire party? I also just noticed you don't have Persistant spell (PGtF). You could do a lot of fun stuff with persistant spell and Compensation.
Xzoltar 07-30-04, 11:27 PM	Metamagic you really need for this kind of built : Extend Spell , Persistent Spell and Twin Spell. I will probablly drop Quicken Spell and change it for on of theses feats because you can emulate the quicken spell ability via using Schism ( telepathy power lvl 4 ) , try to take 2 flaws if possible to have the feat you're missing. Dont listen to those that will tell you that this built is not really good becasue your 5 level behind in both your spellcasting and manifesting spells/powers. If you decide to choose the Practiced xxxster feat, choose the one for Psion because you will gain more from it ( more lvl = more PFP you can spend = better the schism power is and more powerful easy you can use your Metamagic enhancement, I love Twin Spell with Augmented Mind Thrust or Mind Rape ( not sure, but its the power that make the target lose level ) Enjoy
Qaetar 07-31-04, 12:01 AM	In general, summoning when you're behind on spell levels is a sub-par tactic. At level 6, you'll still be summoning level 2 Summon Monster/Astral Construct spells, which are rather pitiful to...anyone. (Qaetar)
catharz 07-31-04, 02:37 AM	Originally posted by Qaetar In general, summoning when you're behind on spell levels is a sub-par tactic. At level 6, you'll still be summoning level 2 Summon Monster/Astral Construct spells, which are rather pitiful to...anyone. (Qaetar) This is the only build that can decently cast Summon monster/Astral constructs, and I would therefore call it the best. I suppose you could do it with a Psion 1/Wizard, but IMO that would be a huge waste. At any rate, calling out the weakest level in the build as a reason to avoid one of its main tactics proves nothing. Summon monster is one of the best tactics for any multicaster, because you don't need to worry about DCs or damage dice, and dispelling them works in your favor.
Qaetar 07-31-04, 10:06 PM	Well, at level 17 you've got 7th Level summons coming up. Those are CR 7, CR 6, CR 8 creatures. I think a Mystic Theurge is a better Summoner than the Cerebremancer because at least Quicken Spell, Augmented Summoning, etc. help all your summons. At any given level, your summons are one or two spell levels behind, when the CR of the summons already increases at a rate slower than your opponents. Sounds like a losing battle to me. (Qaetar)
catharz 07-31-04, 11:21 PM	Originally posted by Qaetar Well, at level 17 you've got 7th Level summons coming up. Those are CR 7, CR 6, CR 8 creatures. I think a Mystic Theurge is a better Summoner than the Cerebremancer because at least Quicken Spell, Augmented Summoning, etc. help all your summons. At any given level, your summons are one or two spell levels behind, when the CR of the summons already increases at a rate slower than your opponents. Sounds like a losing battle to me. (Qaetar) First of all you aren't factoring in any of the summoning-augmentation abilities the character has to figure out the spell's relative power.. Secondly, the Mind mage gains just as much benefit from the listed feats as a Mystic theurge, and probably more. And Compensation is at least as effective as Divine metamagic.
Xzoltar 08-01-04, 07:40 AM	Compensation : Let you add lot of metamagic feat to your spells , a good one is Twin Spell, you will summon double amount of Creature. Twin Well Same Source : Your Caster level is at least 5 more than the Straight Wizard or Cleric in the group, so your summon last longer. Astral Construct : Your Monster gain at top of their abilities, Astral Construct augmentation for almost no cost. Then you have the same things as a normal wizard you can do, more Metamagic, Augment Sumonning feat, etc... Let's compare lvl 20 Wizard vs lvl 20 Mindmage ( 3/3/4/10 ) for sumonning : Wizard : he can't use metamagic because its a lvl 9 spell, he summon a Astral Deva adding is Augment Sumonning feat - 1 Astral Deva ( 20 rds , +4 For , +4 Con , 126 Pv ) Mindmage : He cast a Twin Summon Monster IX calling 2 Astral Deva that are augmenting with the Astral Construct abilities and the Augment Sumonning feat. - 2 Astral Deva ( 25 rds , +4 For , +4 Con , 156 Pv , Always Invisible )