Post/Author/DateTime	Post
bradywan 06-18-06, 08:04 PM	Hello brothers and sisters, Here is the scoop. Starting a level 1 Eberron campaign. Our gaming group has dwindled to 4 players, and here is the set up. One human wizard conjuration specialist, a elven cleric of the silver flame, a half elf bard wanting to pursue archery and myself, a human knight. This campaign will go to epic levels, and we have accces to pretty much any WotC book we want, except psionics. 3rd party green ronin or mongoose pulishing (Quintessential line) with dm's permission. My stats: 8, 10, 10, 14, 16, 16 I also assigned myself a character flaw from UA giving myself a -2 on all ranged attacks, which grants me a bonus feat. Here is how I have them set up Str 16 Dex 10 Con 16 Wis 8 Int 10 Cha 14 Since I will be the majority of the offense and defense, I am choosing my first 3 feats as such, unless advised otherwise: Exotic weapon prof: Bastard sword Improved Shield bash Shield Specialization I am hoping to get the Cavalier prestige class, so at second level I was going to use my bonus feat for mounted combat. Here is what I have planned: Knight 1 EWP: Bastard Sword, improved shield bash, Shield Spec Knight 2 Mounted combat Fighter3 Agile shield fighter, ride by attack Knight 4 Knight 5 Fighter6 Spirited charge and 1 other Knight 7 Weapon focus: Lance I need ideas that will help me help my party. Any good shield feats I'm missing? What about over all defense? I don't play Fighter/tank like jobs very often, and I could use all the help I can round up. I have seen incredible things on this board, but much of it would not be playable under my DM. So do what you do, but don't make my DM kill me off in the first few adventures :P I chose the bastard sword for more dmg, and being able to use a shield as well. If need be I could take another character flaw, and get another bonus feat. Help me CO board, I want to be teh uber tank ^^
bradywan 06-18-06, 10:19 PM	and, I was thinking Vassal of Bahamut maybe instead of Cavalier.
DarthDave 06-19-06, 12:00 AM	Knights are all about defense first, offense second. Throw the 16 into Charisma for more uses of Knightly abilities; a d12 hp and 14 Con won't hurt ya. Your bonus featat 2nd level IS Mounted Combat, and you've missed 5th and 10th level horsemanship-related combat feats for the class, like ride-by attack and trample. Skip the PrC- go Knight 20. There is nothing to be gained with this PrC. Personally, flaws seem kinda cheesy; the Knight gives you plenty of feats to do what you want without taking needless penalties. Look at the shield feats from PHBII. Also look into what Knight do best- stop an opponent. Try threatening a square with a spiked chain...there's all sorts of cheese with this tactic.
bradywan 06-19-06, 05:21 AM	come on people? Is this all you have? No one has any ideas for my knight? You have my party set up and my stats.... very dissapionting :(
gkp79 06-19-06, 12:40 PM	come on people? Is this all you have? No one has any ideas for my knight? I'll help you out bradywan. I am no CO genius, but I do enjoy tweaking with character builds so I'll do my best. First off, I agree with DarthDave that you should stick to straight knight20 rather than going for fighter levels or a PrC, especially if you are planning to go epic. The knights level 20 class ability is insanely good - I cant imagine much that you would get from dipping another class that could make up for losing out on it. If you are interested in playing as a mounted combatant sometimes that is just fine - you dont need to take a PrC to do that. The knight even gives you bonus feats at 5, 10, and 15 to help out your mounted fighting so take advantage of that. Str 16 Dex 10 Con 16 Wis 8 Int 10 Cha 14 I like how you set up your stats. This is how I would place those numbers too. Since I will be the majority of the offense and defense, I am choosing my first 3 feats as such, unless advised otherwise: Exotic weapon prof: Bastard sword Improved Shield bash Shield Specialization OK, not a bad plan you have here - I do have some reservations though. For one, make sure it really is worth it to you to go for an exotic weapon. I have found that by specializing in a weapon type (especially an unusual or exotic weapon) means that it will be rare for me to find a magic item of that specific type during play. This will mostly be a pain at early levels when the party is still pretty poor, because at mid-high levels you can always just have what items you want crafted for you. But even at higher levels you may find unique or artifact treasure that isnt in your chosen weapon type, but is cool enough that you will want to use it anyways - and then your feat choice is kind of being wasted since your not even using that exotic weapon. I just prefer to leave my weapon choice wide open and not spend any feats specializing, unless I plan to specialize all the way and take multiple feats to improve it. My second reservation is in going for the shield bash line to do dual weild attacks. If you go for shield spikes and spend the money to enchant them up it could end up being 'ok' at higher levels for doing some extra damage. Just make sure its worth it to you to spend the 2 extra feats to do this (improved shield bash and agile shield fighter). Feats are a precious commodity. Feat Build: Flaws: Shakey, Inattentive Knight 01- EWP: Bastard Sword, Shield Spec, Improved Shield Bash, Shield Ward Knight 02- Mounted Combat Knight 03- Agile Shield Fighter Knight 04- Knight 05- Ride-by-attack Knight 06- Power Attack Knight 07- Knight 08- Knight 09- Improved Bull Rush Knight 10- Spirited Charge Knight 11- Knight 12- Shock Trooper Knight 13- Knight 14- Knight 15- Endurance, Defensive Sweep Knight 16- Knight 17- Knight 18- (open) Knight 19- Knight 20- Feat justifications: Shield Ward: this is an amazing shield feat. I highly suggest going for it if you are commited to using a shield. Shock Trooper: The heedless charge maneuver is what makes this feat so good. You can power attack for maximum on a charge without taking any penalty to your attack roll. Combine this with a lance on a spirited charge and you are doing some massive damage. Endurance: Lets you sleep in mithril full plate armor without being fatigued the next day. I find this very handy when out adventuring, but if you dont think its needed go with Great Fortitude for the +2 fort save instead. Defensive Sweep: Synergises pretty well with the Knights bulwark of defense class ability. What do you think of this for a feat build? You pick up the mounted combat related feats from your bonus list every 5 levels, and with your normal feats you focus on improving the shield and on going for Shock Trooper, which is excellent for dealing damage and synergies really well with Spirited Charge. This should make your character very deadly when mounted, and be a good tank who can defend the party when your unmounted.
EldonG 06-19-06, 12:57 PM	Ok...I disagree wholeheartedly with the negative comment about the Cavalier...if you expect to see plenty of outdoor combat, where you can be mounted, Cavalier is darn hard to beat. Take it. Love it. Keep the Str. Your stats are exactly the way I'd do it...the 14 Cha is good,and you can act as party face, but that's secondary. Primarily, your job is kickin' butt and soaking damage. When do you expect to hit Cavalier? The fighter levels are important, if you need the feats, but Knights get some pretty sweet abilities of their own. I see you already have one feat you are unsure of, and I can't help but think that more levels of Knight might be better. I'd consider Knight10/Cavalier10.... Consider the possibility of taking Knight all the way to 9th before Cav1, even...Heavy Armor Mastery is nothing to sneeze at...but...if you're almost always mounted, go on into Cav, then. Your feats aren't bad...but if you're patient, you'll have the ones you need by 9th, to enter Cavalier.
bradywan 06-19-06, 01:37 PM	Thanks for the input guys, exactly what I'm looking for ^^ Darth- I had considered the spiked chain briefly, but I just don't see it as very knighty. I probably should have mentioned that my group is heavy on role playing, and light on combat. The spiked chain owns though :P gkp- Thank you! My DM had also recommended knight all the way to 20. Your feat tree is also very good, there are a few there I will need to look up. I'm just so used to multiclassing, I guess it works its way into my builds almost automaticly ^^ Eldon- Yes, Cavalier sounds like alot of fun! It was mostly for role playing purposes though, and can easily be removed. The two level fighter dip was strictly so I could have Cavalier the first level it was avalible. So, to be the best defensive Knight I can be, what would I take at lvl 1 & 3 instead of improved shield bash and agile shield fighter? Any suggestions? Stick with shield bashing? Thanks for taking the time to post, and helping me out.
EldonG 06-19-06, 01:53 PM	Thanks for the input guys, exactly what I'm looking for ^^ Darth- I had considered the spiked chain briefly, but I just don't see it as very knighty. I probably should have mentioned that my group is heavy on role playing, and light on combat. The spiked chain owns though :P gkp- Thank you! My DM had also recommended knight all the way to 20. Your feat tree is also very good, there are a few there I will need to look up. I'm just so used to multiclassing, I guess it works its way into my builds almost automaticly ^^ Eldon- Yes, Cavalier sounds like alot of fun! It was mostly for role playing purposes though, and can easily be removed. The two level fighter dip was strictly so I could have Cavalier the first level it was avalible. So, to be the best defensive Knight I can be, what would I take at lvl 1 & 3 instead of improved shield bash and agile shield fighter? Any suggestions? Stick with shield bashing? Thanks for taking the time to post, and helping me out. Knight 20 is excellent...but seriously, if you'll be out in the open a lot, Cavalier is both great flavor and powerful...and can be defensive, as well. Attacking the guy that is charging can be difficult, if you plan the charge right...especially mounted, using a lance. I'll help with feat selection gladly, once I know which way you decide to go. Right now, I'd head to either Knight20 or Knight10/Cav10.
bradywan 06-19-06, 02:05 PM	Eldon, At the moment I'm leaning towards Knight 20. Do whatever you'd like with the feats. If you have a better idea than shield bash/agile shield fighter let me know. And of course, if your bored today, feel free to hit me with knight10/Cavalier10 as well.
EldonG 06-19-06, 02:47 PM	Well, with the Knight, anything that adds to his defensive abilities is a good idea. Combat Expertise and Defensive Strike work well for those moments when you really need to stay alive. AC is vital, but don't forget saves, either, especially if your AC gets so high your DM has to look for alternate ways to make you know you've been in a fight. Steadfast Determination and Indomitable Soul are excellent. I'd look for ways to get energy resistances, too, but that won't be coming from feats...Lightning Reflexes helps, but not nearly enough...you'll be taking bookoo damage from fireballs and the like, I'd assume. Shield Charge might be an effective thing against casters, if you're using all the shield feats, anyhow...but you'd want a readied action, dependent on them casting.
gkp79 06-19-06, 03:08 PM	what would I take at lvl 1 & 3 instead of improved shield bash and agile shield fighter? Any suggestions? With freeing up those 2 feats you could go for Improved Sunder and Combat Brute instead. Combat Brute synergises pretty well with Shock Tropper because a couple of its manuevers deal with charging or bull rushing as set up moves. Take a look at it in the Complete Warrior book. Of course, if you go this route then rearrange what order you pick up the feats from what I suggested earlier so that you get Shock Trooper earlier, and Combat Brute later on.
DarthDave 06-19-06, 05:26 PM	Heavy on roleplaying, eh? Consider the idea that trippin'/disarming an opponent, then "capturing" them is VERY lawful. Let them stand trial for their accusations, or at least turn them over to local authorities. Taking prisoners is very much suited for role-playing than hack-n-slash.
DarthDave 06-19-06, 05:32 PM	Well, with the Knight, anything that adds to his defensive abilities is a good idea. Combat Expertise and Defensive Strike work well for those moments when you really need to stay alive. AC is vital, but don't forget saves, either, especially if your AC gets so high your DM has to look for alternate ways to make you know you've been in a fight. Steadfast Determination and Indomitable Soul are excellent. I'd look for ways to get energy resistances, too, but that won't be coming from feats...Lightning Reflexes helps, but not nearly enough...you'll be taking bookoo damage from fireballs and the like, I'd assume. Shield Charge might be an effective thing against casters, if you're using all the shield feats, anyhow...but you'd want a readied action, dependent on them casting. What about taking some cross-class skillpoints in Spellcraft? This helps get you the Mage Slayer feat, and having the feat lets spellcasters KNOW they can't cast defensively in an area you threaten (again, hello Mr. Spiked Chain!). Also, grab Stand Still (EPH) feat; you have the Strength requisite for it. Stop opponents in their tracks when you threaten them with...oh...a spiked chain! :)
EldonG 06-19-06, 07:53 PM	What about taking some cross-class skillpoints in Spellcraft? This helps get you the Mage Slayer feat, and having the feat lets spellcasters KNOW they can't cast defensively in an area you threaten (again, hello Mr. Spiked Chain!). Also, grab Stand Still (EPH) feat; you have the Strength requisite for it. Stop opponents in their tracks when you threaten them with...oh...a spiked chain! :) Oh...it's a good idea overall, I'd say...but he does want to steer away from the spiked chain...and I hate to always reccomend it...everybody using the same weapon all the time gets old...
EldonG 06-19-06, 07:59 PM	With freeing up those 2 feats you could go for Improved Sunder and Combat Brute instead. Combat Brute synergises pretty well with Shock Tropper because a couple of its manuevers deal with charging or bull rushing as set up moves. Take a look at it in the Complete Warrior book. Of course, if you go this route then rearrange what order you pick up the feats from what I suggested earlier so that you get Shock Trooper earlier, and Combat Brute later on. Shock Trooper is pretty effective, from what I've seen, but I'd be cautious about sacrificing defensive feats...Combat Brute...hmmm...I'm not as familiar with it... Now that I've looked...I'd save Combat Brute for a 2-hand wielder.
DarthDave 06-19-06, 08:39 PM	Oh...it's a good idea overall, I'd say...but he does want to steer away from the spiked chain...and I hate to always reccomend it...everybody using the same weapon all the time gets old... What about the Short Haft feat with a polearm? I agree with the comments about Defensive Sweep, too. One question is this- how much do you want to dedicate yourself to shields and shield-related feats? There seems to be a whole world open to shield use with PHBII, including slinging one's shield towards the enemy!
gkp79 06-19-06, 08:41 PM	Shock Trooper is pretty effective, from what I've seen, but I'd be cautious about sacrificing defensive feats...Combat Brute...hmmm...I'm not as familiar with it... It wouldnt be sacrificing defensive feats to go that route. He was looking for a possible replacement for Agile Shield Fighter (thats the feat for dual weild attacking with a shield and sword). Now that I've looked...I'd save Combat Brute for a 2-hand wielder. The nice thing about using a Bastard Sword is that when one gets to be higher level and can afford a nice +5 Animated Shield, they can switch the grip to be two handed so as to take extra advantage of strength bonus and power attack bonus while still maintaining the defense of a shield.
EldonG 06-19-06, 08:45 PM	It wouldnt be sacrificing defensive feats to go that route. He was looking for a possible replacement for Agile Shield Fighter (thats the feat for dual weild attacking with a shield and sword). The nice thing about using a Bastard Sword is that when one gets to be higher level and can afford a nice +5 Animated Shield, they can switch the grip to be two handed so as to take extra advantage of strength bonus and power attack bonus while still maintaining the defense of a shield. You do bring up some good points...I really don't reccomend swapping out the agile shield user, though...and using the bastard sword 2-handed also assumes the animated shield...which works, if he can get it, I will admit...
Malkonnen 06-20-06, 11:34 AM	It wouldnt be sacrificing defensive feats to go that route. He was looking for a possible replacement for Agile Shield Fighter (thats the feat for dual weild attacking with a shield and sword). The nice thing about using a Bastard Sword is that when one gets to be higher level and can afford a nice +5 Animated Shield, they can switch the grip to be two handed so as to take extra advantage of strength bonus and power attack bonus while still maintaining the defense of a shield. Becareful about switching to an animated shield as some DMs would rule that you would lose out on the Shield Block and Shield Specialization bonuses to AC since you are no longer directly wielding it. I also would recommend against the shield basher route. The -2 penalty on attacks is usually too much on defensive builds like this; your attack bonus is going to be several points behind where a typical warrior's would be at your level. Also if you are going to go the mounted route, shield bashing is almost worthless since you're gonna want to be at lance range and charging all the time. I'd also recommend against the bastard sword proficiency. You're spending a feat to get 1 point of average damage per swing, and only if as gkp79 eloquently pointed out, you're consistently using a bastard sword. The only way I'd say bastard sword was worth it was if you planned on taking 1 level of Exotic Weapon Master for the Uncanny Blow abilty, because any 1 handed weapon can be used 2 handed once you pick up an Animated Shield. Otherwise I'd swap it for power attack which is generally far more useful and effective and opens up several feat chains. gkp79's mounted build should work well, although as EldonG has said you should give serious consideration to the Cavalier PrC if you truly intend to be the majority of your party's offense as you said. The 5x damage charge you eventually get is insane, especially when combined with the Shock Trooper feat. And if you know you're playing into epic levels then I wouldn't worry too much about going right for Knight20 since you'll eventually get there. I'd make sure you were effective in the interim.
EldonG 06-20-06, 03:59 PM	I really think Knight, by itself, with decent stats, is pretty darn effective offensively by itself. It pulls full BAB and has proficiency with all martial weapons. Fighting with a good one (and the bastard sword is a good one, though it does require the feat, one-handed...which isn't strictly optimized, by itself) means you should put out some decent damage with limited feats. Power Attack is a good one for a knight. The Knight's biggest problem is defense, which wouldn't be bad for any other class - he wears heavy armor, and gets d12 (friggin' d12!) HD...but...he draws all the attention to himself, on a regular basis. This makes him the ultimate meatshield...and it also means that he'll regularly take the most damage. All that said, a strong offense makes a good defense better. Always. If I've seemed to advise strictly defensive things, I really didn't mean to say don't take offensive feats. Dropping your enemies before they drop you is what it's all about, (combat, at least) so just make sure you can survive doing it. I think a Knight20 is a heck of a front-liner. You'll be hard-pressed to beat that...but outdoors, the Cavalier is just nuts for the damage he deals...no optimization required!