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| wolphyde08-31-04, 03:54 AM | hi again, i posted this yesterday bt it seems to be gone due to the board remake so i dont know if and what you guys answered so here it is again: General idea is tactical chain(trip) fighter with roguish skills Human True Neutral 32 Point Buy: STR 14 (6) DEX 16 (10) CON 14 (6) INT 16 (10) WIS 8 (0) CHA 8 (0) raises into dex (AoO and AC) Rog1/Brb1/Swa3/Ftr2/Rng2/Ninja Spy8/Yakuza3 lvl(BAB) (): Bonus Feat 01 (0) Rog1 Combat Reflexes (Jotunbrud)(houserule: 1 larger, not large) 02 (1) Brb1 03 (2) Swa1 Wolf Berserker (Weap. Finesse) 04 (3) Ftr1 (Imp. Trip) 05 (4) Swa2 06 (5) Swa3 Dodge 07 (6) Rng1 08 (6) Nin1 (EWP: Spiked Chain) 09 (7) Rng2 Knockdown (TWF) 10 (8) Nin2 11 (9) Nin3 (EWP: ?) 12(10) Nin4 Imp. TWF 13(11) Ftr2 (GTWF) 14(11) yak1 15(12) yak2 ??? 16(13) yak3 17(13) Nin5 18(14) Nin6 ??? (EWP: ?) 19(15) Nin7 20(16) Nin8 Noteworthy: 06 Int to Damage 10 Imp Evasion 12 Hide in Plain sight 14 Defensive roll (Awesome Epic Dodge) 16 Yakuza Knowledge 19 A thousand Faces BAB: 16 Base Saves: 18/15/8 SA: +4d6 HD : 12d6+1d12+7d10 Avg HP: 129.5 We are 5-6 Players so it won't have to be the main tank, although it may have to be the only rogue... Any ideas on the will save? Ninja9 will give slippery mind at 21 but it’s a little late & mind blank item should be affordable by then anyway. Good ideas for the last feats? Drop TWF? What about: Exp.Tact/PA/Karmic Strike/WF/Imp Crit/Large & in Charge(enlarge item/UMD/rely on wiz) All core and splat books, non FR and Dragon only after a check with group. UA prob. not but post anyway Thanks a lot for any reply's |
| Orkz09-01-04, 09:59 AM | Normaly i do not like ranger levels that much, you gain more feats that are usefull as fighter 2. But for a ninja it's stylish to be able to track... I also like to put in some levels invisible blade (int to AC) and master thrower... If you cut it to 1 level ranger, and stay away from babarian, you will be epic ready at level 20 by completing your PrC to level 10 :) |
| wolphyde09-01-04, 10:16 AM | i would like to reach NS 10 by 20, but if i keep the 3 yakuza lvls (which i kinda want for defensive roll and yakuza knowledge), there is no way to get BAB +16 by 20 without totally dropping rogue... I like the invis blade int to ac, espeicially since i plan on high int for swashbuckler anyway. I really want that 1 lvl Brb for +10 Movement and Wolf Berserker, and without raising it to 2 I cant have Swashbuckler 3 and fighter 4. That is kinda the reason for Ranger 2, although i like track as well and the skills will help pay for the requirements for Ninja Spy. Maybe I should drop Yakuza...the main reason i wanted it(defensive roll) doesn't become useful until 27th(Epic Dodge), and yakuza knowledge can be simulated by Gather Information... Ill try do do sth without the yakuza and including some Invisible Blade. Really buggy prereqs, though.... EDIT: I just noticed not only the SA, but also the Feinting only works with daggers, so the only reason for taking lvls (for me since i want to fight with Chains) would be the BAB and the higher int to AC (maybe the skills a little as well) do you think the int to AC is worth it taking say 3 lvls? Also, is there an epic progression for Ninja Spy? If yes where?, If no, what do you propose? |
| Orkz09-01-04, 10:32 AM | Well, it's not realy worth it for AC only. Why not fight with daggers as secondary weapon? hmmm. on the other hand those (can attack close enemies) chain weapons rock... |
| Gorath09-01-04, 10:36 AM | Why do you take Knockdown? If you have Improved Trip it is usually better to trip first and use the +4 bonus for a prone target then attacking first (hope to get 10 damage) and make your trip attemp then. If you don't use Knockdown you have one feat free. Perhaps you can take Dodge/Mobility/Sidestep for ignoring most full round attacks. Look at Snow's Tripper (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=163005&highlight=chain+tripper) build for some ideas. Gorath |
| wolphyde09-01-04, 11:21 AM | snow's build is where the spiked chain/trip aspect of my char is from ;) knockdown...I dont really know why I included it...i think i just liked the idea of the mechanics, but u are right, it doesnt make much sense. |
| wolphyde09-01-04, 01:41 PM | ok, this is what i consider the bare necessities (I rediscovered that NS needs Evasion and with all my Scribbling around I totally forgot that rogue doesn't get it until 2nd :D): Rog2/Brb1/Ftr2/Swa3/NiS4 0 Hum (?Feat?) 1 Rog1 Comb.Refl. 2 Brb1 3 Swa1 Wolf Berserk, (Weapon Finesse) 4 Ftr1 (Imp.Trip) 5 Ftr2 (Dodge) 6 Swa2 ?Feat? 7 Rog2 8 NiS1 (EWP: Chain) 9 Swa3 ?Feat? 10 NiS2 11 NiS3 12 NiS4 ?Feat? So far: BAB +10 Saves: 12/8+1 Grace/5 But where to go from there? Since I dropped yakuza there are a lot of new possibilities. I still would like to reach Ninja 8th maybe even 10th but that is only one possibility. Other things that seem pretty cool: Teflammar Shadowlord (with Shadow Walker or without?) (great Spells and abilities) Yakuza Spy(read: Zhentarim Spy :D) (a little SA, undetect align, slippery mind) Ninja otCrM (good saves&SA) Guild Thief/Shadow Thief (SA & Uncanny Dodge) Assassin (you all know him) Shadowdancer (slippery mind & shadow movement) Exotic Weapon Master (Sweeping, Ex TWF, Flurry) Occult Slayer (immunity to mind affecting) I just cant decide...what do you guys propose? and I'm still hearing suggestions for feats |
| wolphyde09-01-04, 06:22 PM | :bump: :bump: |
| Orkz09-01-04, 08:04 PM | I like the idea of a reach-weapon finess / hide on plain sight spring attack build. So i did something that is close to my previous ninja build but does not get Master Thrower (cannot get Master Thrower 5) or Invisible Blade (does not make sense when fighting with Chain) Levels so far: Rogue 1 / Ranger 1 / Monk 2 / Fighter 2 as core (BAB 5, Track, Bonus Feats, Evasion) Shadowdancer 1 / for ninjaness: Ninja of the Crescent Moon 1-10 What leaves 3 Levels open for ECL or other classes. 1 Rogue 1 - 1stLv Feat: Dodge, SneakAttack 1d6, Trapfinding, d6HD, (8+int)x4, Saves: +0/+2/+0, BAB 0 2 Ranger 1 - FavouredEnemy, Track, WildEmpathy, d8HD, (6+int), Saves: +2/+2/+0, BAB 1 3 Monk 1 - 3rdLv Feat: DeflectArrows, ImprovedUnarmedStrike, FlurryOfBlows, Improved Grapple, d8HD, (int+4), Saves: +2/+2/+2, BAB 2 4 Monk 2 - Combat Reflexes, Evasion, d8HD, (int+4), Saves: +1/+1/+1, BAB 3 5 Fighter1 - Mobility, d10HD, (2+int), Saves: +2/+0/+0, BAB 4 6 Fighter2 - 6thLv Feat: QuickDraw, SpringAttack, d10HD, (2+int), Saves: +1/+0/+0, BAB 5 7 ShadDa 1 - HideOnPlainSight, d8HD, (int+6), Saves +0/+2/+0, BAB 6 8 NotCrM 1 - Monk like Armor Bonus, Sneak Attack +1d6, d8HD, (int+4) skills, Saves: +2/+2/+2, BAB 9 NotCrM 2 - 9thLv Feat: ImprovedInitiative, ImprovedEvasion, kuji-kiri (hynotic pattern 2d4+1/lv DC12+CHA), 12thLV Feat: WeaponFiness, d8HD, (int+4) skills, Saves: +1/+1/+1, BAB 10 NotCrM 3 - Poison Use, sneak attack +1d6, d8HD, (int+4) skills, Saves: +0/+0/+0, BAB 11 NotCrM 4 - fast climb, silencing attack, d8HD, (int+4) skills, Saves: +1/+1/+1, BAB 12 NotCrM 5 - 12th fast sneak, sneak attack +1d6, 15thLV Feat: ImprovedInitiative, d8HD, (int+4) skills, Saves: +0/+0/+0, BAB 13 NotCrM 6 - invisibility 1/day/Lv, opportunist, d8HD, (int+4) skills, Saves: +1/+1/+1, BAB 14 NotCrM 7 - gaseous form 1 round/lv, sneak attack +1d6, d8HD, (int+4) skills, Saves: +0/+0/+0, BAB 15 NotCrM 8 - 15th improved kuji-kiri (3d6+1/lv HD Will DC15+CHA), 18thLV Feat: LevelHeaded, d8HD, (int+4) skills, Saves: +1/+1/+1, BAB 16 NotCrM 9 - blindsight 60ft, sneak attack +1d6, d8HD, (int+4) skills, Saves: +0/+0/+0, BAB 17 NotCrM 10 - always sneaky (take10), etheral jaunt 3/day, d8HD, (int+4) skills, Saves: +1/+1/+1, BAB We could put in 1 Level of Master Thrower (save a Feat because we get QuickDraw for free and gain a Throwing Trick) We Could *kick* Shadowdancer and put in Ninja Spy 1-4 for hide on plain sight? The Problem is: Ninja Spy requires a skill rank 10 (level 7) and NotCrM requires BAB 6. If we kick shadowdancer we will be one level too low to pick Ninja Spy at 7 because of Skill Ranks (you need to be level 7 to learn rank 10, then pick up ninja spy on level 8, right? you cannot meet the requirements for ninja spy with ninja spy skillpoints) We would not qualify for NotCrM at Level 7 either, because we are one Medium-BAB Level too low for BAB6. :weep: Solutions? I think a Rogue 1 / Ranger 1 / Monk 2 / Fighter 2 / Ninja Spy 4 / Ninja of the Crescent Moon 10 would kick ass and can use the KusariGame as 10ft ranged chain weapon for free at level Ninja Spy 1... |
| Orkz09-01-04, 09:24 PM | Rogue1 / Ranger1 / Monk2 / Fighter2 ... how to get one more point of BAB? If we simply replace Rogue or Monk by Ranger or something with good progression, we cannot do it, we will stay at 5. So we would have to replace Monk 2 and Rogue 1, but that would make it impossible to qualify as NotCrM (need evasion)... We have to Stay Monk2 or Rogue2 for Evasion. A Level of Drunken Master? ... needs evasion too :( A level of Ninja? ... only medium BAB :( It's kind of impossible to get BAB6 out of 6 Levels and gain Evasion on the way. Any sugestions on how to do that? |
| wolphyde09-02-04, 08:00 AM | I think BAB +6 with evasion is not possible (at least i dont know any PrC with Full BAB & Evasion) but I think it works out ok if you take only monk or rogue with BAB 6 at 7th which is needed for 10 Ranks anyway. The Monk works better with the NotCrM because of Imp Unarmed & deflect arrows. I think SA is not all that important, though, and I don't like not having any feats to choose so I think i'll stay with Ninja Spy. If my Group will let me I'll maybe use your Ninja PRC instead. here's another go, this time with EWM and more precise on the Choices: Rog2/Brb1/Swa3/Ftr2/Ninja Spy4/xxx6 00 (0) Human Jotunbrud 01 (0) Rog1 Combat Reflexes 02 (1) Brb1 03 (2) Swa1 Wolf Berserker (Weap. Finesse) 04 (3) Ftr1 (Imp. Trip) 05 (4) Swa2 06 (5) Swa3 Dodge 07 (6) Rog2 08 (6) Nin1 (EWP: Chains) 09 (7) Nin2 Feat 10 (8) Nin3 (EWP: ?) 11 (9) Nin4 12(10) Ftr2 Feat (WeapFoc: Chains) 13(11) EWM1 14(12) EWM2 15(12) xxx1 Feat 16(13) xxx2 17(13) xxx3 18(14) xxx4 Feat 19(15) xxx5 20(16) xxx6 Noteworthy: 01 Find Traps 07 Evasion ;) 06 Int to Damage 09 Imp Evasion 11 Hide in Plain sight 13 Flurry 14 Exotic Trip So far: BAB: +12 Base Saves: 15/8/5 SA: +2d6 With 6 more Ninja Spy: BAB: +16 Base Saves: 18/11/8 +2d6 SA, a thousand faces, slippery mind, abundant step, epic ready with Teflammar Shadowlord 6: BAB +16 Base Saves: 17/13/7 shadow...sight, jump, blur, walk, pounce, discorporation, death attack, Good Spells What do you guys think of those is better? Or something else entirely? And Tef. ShdLrd with or without Shadow Walker Template? The downside on Teflammar Shadowlord is the steep prereqs (Dodge/Mob./Spring Att./Blind-Fight) which may infringe on Trip capability and prohibit other choices like: Karmic Strike/Sidestep/TWF-chain/Expert Tact/Power Attack But the abilities are pretty Nifty. Do you guys think an Epic progression for Tef. ShdLord is justified? It has 6 lvls and a lot of Lvl dependant abilities which are quite obtrusive, so the argument about 5 Lvl Prestige classes not really Defining a Character isn't as Strong... If yes, how would you go about making a Progression for him? |
| magnafides09-02-04, 09:33 AM | 1 Rogue 1 - 1stLv Feat: Dodge, SneakAttack 1d6, Trapfinding, d6HD, (8+int)x4, Saves: +0/+2/+0, BAB 0 2 Ranger 1 - FavouredEnemy, Track, WildEmpathy, d8HD, (6+int), Saves: +2/+2/+0, BAB 1 3 Monk 1 - 3rdLv Feat: DeflectArrows, ImprovedUnarmedStrike, FlurryOfBlows, Improved Grapple, d8HD, (int+4), Saves: +2/+2/+2, BAB 2 4 Monk 2 - Combat Reflexes, Evasion, d8HD, (int+4), Saves: +1/+1/+1, BAB 3 5 Fighter1 - Mobility, d10HD, (2+int), Saves: +2/+0/+0, BAB 4 6 Fighter2 - 6thLv Feat: QuickDraw, SpringAttack, d10HD, (2+int), Saves: +1/+0/+0, BAB 5 7 ShadDa 1 - HideOnPlainSight, d8HD, (int+6), Saves +0/+2/+0, BAB 6 8 NotCrM 1 - Monk like Armor Bonus, Sneak Attack +1d6, d8HD, (int+4) skills, Saves: +2/+2/+2, BAB 9 NotCrM 2 - 9thLv Feat: ImprovedInitiative, ImprovedEvasion, kuji-kiri (hynotic pattern 2d4+1/lv DC12+CHA), 12thLV Feat: WeaponFiness, d8HD, (int+4) skills, Saves: +1/+1/+1, BAB 10 NotCrM 3 - Poison Use, sneak attack +1d6, d8HD, (int+4) skills, Saves: +0/+0/+0, BAB 11 NotCrM 4 - fast climb, silencing attack, d8HD, (int+4) skills, Saves: +1/+1/+1, BAB 12 NotCrM 5 - 12th fast sneak, sneak attack +1d6, 15thLV Feat: ImprovedInitiative, d8HD, (int+4) skills, Saves: +0/+0/+0, BAB 13 NotCrM 6 - invisibility 1/day/Lv, opportunist, d8HD, (int+4) skills, Saves: +1/+1/+1, BAB 14 NotCrM 7 - gaseous form 1 round/lv, sneak attack +1d6, d8HD, (int+4) skills, Saves: +0/+0/+0, BAB 15 NotCrM 8 - 15th improved kuji-kiri (3d6+1/lv HD Will DC15+CHA), 18thLV Feat: LevelHeaded, d8HD, (int+4) skills, Saves: +1/+1/+1, BAB 16 NotCrM 9 - blindsight 60ft, sneak attack +1d6, d8HD, (int+4) skills, Saves: +0/+0/+0, BAB 17 NotCrM 10 - always sneaky (take10), etheral jaunt 3/day, d8HD, (int+4) skills, Saves: +1/+1/+1, BAB Don't forget that NoCM was errata'd to cleric BAB and only good reflex save. You still fail to correct your posts to reflect this. You should at least make a note of it in your posts instead of misleading people. You may not want to, but most people here want to play by the rules. Edit: Page 5: Sword and Fist Errata (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/snferratav2.zip) |
| Orkz09-02-04, 09:45 AM | @magnafides I let the BAB part open in NotCrM for that reason... How exactly are the saves looking like? Any link to that errata? Besides that... The nice trick would have been no need for shadowdacner 1 and stuff like that because Ninja Spy 4 and Ninja of the Crescent Moon 10 would have been a hammer combination and epic ready at level 20. But we could make it a 21 level build :( |
| Orkz09-03-04, 12:12 AM | OK, ONE MORE SHOT FOR A NINJA: Rogue 1 / Ranger 1 / Monk 2 / Fighert 2 / Master Thrower 1 / Ninja Spy 4 / Ninja of the Crescent Moon 9 (+1 ninja level, +4 master thrwoer for a level 25 build : ) 01 Rogue 1 Trapfinding, 1d6 neak attack, 1st level feat: Dodge 02 Ranger 1 Track, wild empathy, 1 favoured enemy 03 Monk 1 Monk bonus feat: switch for combat Reflexes, improved unarmed attack, flurry of blows, 3rd level feat: Mobility 04 Monk 2 Monk bonus feat: Deflect Arrows, Evasion 05 Fighter1 Figher bonus feat: Point Blank Shot 06 Fighter2 Figher bonus feat: Precise Shot, 6th level feat: Weapon focus any thrown, dagger? 07 Master Thrower 1 prerqeuisites: BAB5, point blank shot, precise shot, weapon focus quick draw, thrown weapon trick 1, 08 Ninja Spy 1 prerequisites: dodge, some rank 10 skills, evasion Exotic Weapon, ki breath, poison use, int+6 / d6HD / med. BAB, monk saves 09 Ninja Spy 2 slow fall 20 ft, improved evasion, 9th level feat: spring attack, sneak attack +1d6, int+6 / d6HD / med. BAB, monk saves 10 Ninja Spy 3 Exotic Weapon, leap of the clouds, acrobatics10 (+10 balance, climb, jump, thumble, able to always take 10), int+6 / d6HD / med. BAB, monk saves 11 Ninja Spy 4 slow fall 30 ft. hide on plain sight, int+6 / d6HD / med. BAB, monk saves --> from this point on you can sneak up to your enemys (within 10 ft., attack with kusari game, walk away + hide on plain sight : ) 12 Ninja of the crescent moon 1 prerequisites (BAB 6+ unamred strike, evasion, some rank 10 skills) Monk like AC bonus, sneak attack +1d6 13 improved evasion, kuji-kiri 14 save poison use, sneak attack +1d6 15 ac+1 fast climb, silencing attack 16 fast sneak, sneak attack +1d6 17 invisibility 1/level/day, opportunist 18 gaseous form 1 round / level / day, sneak attack +4d6 19 improved kuji-kiri 20 ac+2, blindsight, sneak attack +5d6 21 always sneaky, ehtereal jaunt (3 rounds per day) Level 12, 15, 18 feat not decided, choose from this list: Improved Initiative + Level Headed, Improved Critical, Silencing Attack + additional Silence for whisper gnome, Weapon finess, ... NotCrM BAB has been errated to medium, so you gain: 17 levels of medium BAB + 4 levels of good BAB = BAB 16 at level 21 ... yeah i know 21. but you will have awsome lot's of skillpoints, hide on plain sight, throw lot's of ranged weapons and smack everything that comes within 10 ft. with your chain. you can sneak up to your enemy, hit, and walk away while using hide on plain sight. besides that you will always take 10 on hide / sneak and balance/ climb / jump / thumble, the later with a +10 bonus. you will have stealth rolls of around 40 at level 21 and your acrobatics will be around 45. expecialy boosted by playing a whisper gnome... who'd suspect the poor little fellow to be a ninja? Can add the remaining 4 levels of master thrower to get ranged touch attacks and 4 more levels of good BAB until 25. or just turn epic on the spot... Saves will be good, since you will have 6 levels of monk like saves (ninja spy + monk), good fort save (fighter and ranger) and insane ref save... You will be able to find traps with search and track your prey with track feat as well as dealing dood damage, and real good damage against oponents that can be sneak attacked. You will be a very good suportive character, hiding in the middle of a battle, striking at opponents that just got hit or simply casting a lot of attacks of opportunity at enemys that pass within your reach... Finally like this one? the only fact i dislike is that is a level 21 build actualy :( |
| Gorath09-03-04, 04:00 AM | wolphyde, i would go for Ninja Spy. As i see it you have a very high trip bonus already (12+STR). You should be able to drop most enemies. I could see that you could make good use of some TWF feats, because: 1. you get more trip opportunities, that will have success most times 2. you *could* make more damage with your SA In your fights you should get many flanking opportunities because your prone opponents need move-equivalent actions to get up (with AoO) and you can use your full round attacks with SA for your benefits. The problem is you can't get Dodge/Mobility/Karmic Strike/Sidestep/ and the TWF/Double Hit feats in your builds. The first one avoids nasty full round attacks vs you, the second one gives you more trip attempt and more full round damage (with SA). But you have not enough feats. You could drop some feats you choosed: Jotunbrud: If you think you get Enlarge potions you could free up this feat. As you have 8+STR bonus for trip already i would drop it... Weapon Finess/weapon focus: If you really go for trip attacks you make touch attacks that should hit easier. Attacking tripped prone opponents gives a +4 bonus too. I would take this feats if my character would miss often. Else i would use them for other things. (This is a assumption that is not play-tested by me!) |
| wolphyde09-03-04, 07:49 AM | @ gorath Weapon finesse is a Bonus of Swashbuckler. Weapon Focus is needed for the Exotic Weapon Master. Two of his abilities seem rather nice: Trip: another +2 to Trip attemts Flurry: Get an extra attack at your highest BAB when wielding a Double Weaopon or Spiked Chain with both hands, all attacks -2 (Stacks with TWF, right?) Jotunbrud will work (houserule) like the goliath ability of always counting as one category larger, not specifically large(which doesnt make sense IMO), so it is pretty nice even with enlargement. Then again, how much trip bonus do I really need? So far it should be: 4 (Wolf Berserk) + 4 (Improved Trip) + 4 (Jotunbrud) + 2 (EWM) = 14 + STR + Size Maybe I should drop Jotunbrud to make room for other feats. regarding Karmic Strike/Sidestep:I don't like Mobility much, since I am a fan of Tumble, which makes Sidestep an expensive choice. Also I'm under the assumption that I can use the AoO to Trip whoever just hit me, negating any further attacks he might have(unless he is flying in which case i would want sidestep), if it doesnt work that way please tell me, but at least knockdown should work then.(right?) The main Question is if TWF will be of much use with all the AoO I should have and the EWM's Flurry of Strikes. I am kind of inclined towards the Shadowlord, since even with the pereqs of Mobility/Blind-Fight/ Spring attack(can come in handy as well), I should be able to choose 2 feats which could be Jotunbrud Karmic Strike (with Knockdown if trip on AoO is not legal) TWF Imp. TWF (although they would appear much later in the build which sucks bad...) maybe I can even talk my group into using flaws, gaining 1 or 2 additional feats. |
| wolphyde09-03-04, 08:22 AM | @ Orkz I think the BAB doesn't work that way... If you have 15 by lvl 20 you will not gain a 4th Attack in Epic Lvls, since starting at 21 you do not increase BAB but rather gain an Epic Bonus on Attacks Also, Ninja Spy and NotCrM need a Skill at 10 Ranks, which can't be paid for with the Skills they get, ergo you need 7 Lvls before starting either PrC. If I were you I would drop the rogue and just use Monk since he synergizes well with NotCrM and you don't need any Basicall-Rogue-only-Skills like bluff or disguise that are required for the Ninja Spy. what about: Mnk2/Rng2/Ftr2/Master Thrower1/NotCrM10/Master Thrower+3 For the 7th lvl you could alternatively go: Mnk3(still mind +10ft move) Brb1(Rage, +10ft move) Swashbuckler1(Weapon Finesse) Invisible Blade(Dagger SA, unfettered defense) or any other Prestige Class that gives full BAB with master thrower and Invis Blade it can become a little tight on the feats, though... |
| Orkz09-03-04, 08:51 AM | Well, i started one of them Ninja Spy / NotCrM at Level 8 ... That's why i need 21 level for Level 4+10. I had a Build with 2 Levels Master Thrower, Two Levels Invisible Blade and a Level of Shadowdancer, but i wanted to get away from the knife-fighting and use a chain weapon (and guess the last feats will be trip-thingys). So i decided to skip Invisibile Blade, Reduce Master Thrower and put in Ninja Spy 4 instead of Shadowdancer. Why does BAB not work this way? There is a table in core book showing your progression for good, medium, bad BAB, they should add up... |
| wolphyde09-03-04, 09:05 AM | yes, but by lvl 20 they add up to BAB +15 in your build, and no matter what your 21st lvl is, it wont give you BAB. It will give you +1 Epic Attack bonus, but that won't give you another attack (like the BAB +16 would have) ...Epic Attack Bonus: Similarly, the character’s base attack bonus does not increase after character level reaches 20th. However, the character does receive a cumulative +1 epic bonus on all attacks at every odd-numbered level beyond 20th... look in the SRD here (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/epicLevels.html) EDIT: hmm....now that i look at it, it also says: Any time a feat, prestige class, or other rule refers to your base attack bonus, use the sum of your base attack bonus and epic attack bonus Which could also include the Rule: Base Attack Bonus: Add the base attack bonuses acquired for each class to get the character’s base attack bonus. A resulting value of +6 or higher provides the character with multiple attacks. Anybody Else got a justified opinion on this? EDIT (again): In the Epic Lvl Handbook in the same Section they only say add BAB&EAB together to meet requirements for feats, there they dont say anything about "any other Rule". Would have surprised me a lot otherwise. |
| Gorath09-03-04, 09:23 AM | I think its perfectly legal to use a trip attack as an AoO ("An attack of opportunity is a free melee attack that does not use any of your actions." PHB p.135; "Make a trip attack: Make an unarmed melee touch attack." PHB p.158). But i think your opponents will get their other attacks still - but with an -4 penalty for being prone. So perhaps this makes hitting you so hard that you won't need Sidestep. I love the Tumble skill. But i think it synergize best with Spring Attack. If your DM uses the new table with DC modifiers your DCs rise fast - especially if you want to keep your full movement rate. If Jotunbrud works even then large you could drop Wolf Berserker. If you don't want the faster movement from Babarian you could go for Rog3 for more skills and +1d6 SA or something other. In the Gattling Chain Gun Tripper thread was suggested to use Kawangas instead of the chain/blunt chain. So you could TWF with reach 10' (20' if enlarged). In your 20' reach can be more then 4 opponents. In this case TWFing would give you extra trip attemps that could be usefull. I don't know your DM's position to tripping persons which stand up from prone. If he allows you an AoO what can be a trip attempt it might be sweet to get as many opponents prone during your turn as possible to have full control for your 20' reach. I love Snow's idea of TWFing because i love Double Hit.The idea that your opponents regret attacking you for those two attacks is sweet. :D I think a tripper can not have enough attacks (if your trip check succeeds). And with reach you flank more often thus getting more SA with more attacks is sweet also. Remember i am just speculating as i could not yet play my tripper. But Snow said she playtested her build and it worked... |
| Orkz09-03-04, 11:40 AM | ok, so we need one more level of good BAB before 20? hum... ok Rogue 1 / Ranger 1 / Monk 2 / Fighert 2 / Master Thrower 1 / Ninja Spy 4 / Ninja of the Crescent Moon 9 What Level to Drop? If we Reduce Monk we will loose a feat. If we reduce Rogue we will not be able to get Trapfinding. Everything else has good BAB. Or we do NotCrM Level 8, put in one Level of Ranger and complete Notcrm on epic levels? |
| Scandal09-03-04, 12:59 PM | here is a good tripping build that I like that has a ninja feel to it.. monk 6/ shou disciple 5/ whatever 9 full flurry with any weapon.. lots of attacks with that chain now.. shou also gives 1/1 bab I believe.. after that what ever class you want to finish it up.. Also Shou stacks with monk levels to ditermine Flurry.. -Scan |
| Orkz09-03-04, 01:40 PM | no track, no trapfinding, less feas, but sounds nice :) |
| Scandal09-03-04, 02:04 PM | So finish up with just about any class combo.. Want more feats put fighter levels in want track put a ranger level in want trap finding drop in a couple of rogue levels and you are golden.. monk 6/ shou 5/ rouge 3/ fighter 2/ ranger 2/ whatever 2 there is a lot of freedom in this build to add on what ever you want to get at the end without sacrificing much.. as far as feats go you get combat reflexes improved trip (without having to waste a feat on combat expertise) for free, also stunning attack and Unarmed strike.. so what other feats did you need if human you can get 8 feats plus if I am not worng shou gives you two feats I believe so you are not really lacking in the feat department at all... but you get a ninja type person that can fight with weapons or unarmed and no need for armor with this build either.. -Scan |
| Orkz09-04-04, 06:03 AM | Nah, i was thinking to add NotCrM on top of it :) |
| Belladonna501209-05-04, 05:57 AM | Out of curiosity, where is the Shou from? You mention full flurry with any weapon, and I have a character concept that wields a katana for whom flurry would fit very, very well. ~Belladonna Knight |
| Orkz09-05-04, 09:44 AM | I can say it's not from Oriental Adventures... just looked for it. EDIT: Do we have any consensus about how BAB works in epic levels? Would you gain your Class BAB *and* epic BAB? So an Epic fighter would get BAB+1 for every Level and additional Attack-epic every second level? So an Epic Level 24 fighter would have BAB 24 plus 2 points of epic attack bonus? |
| Snicker-Snack09-05-04, 10:11 AM | Shou Disciple is from Unapproachable east. (can't resist a "where's XXXX from?" question :D) |