Advice on Wiz5 survivability. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Advice on Wiz5 survivability. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Ivarrius
02-25-06, 07:13 PM Good evening folks,

In the next coming weeks, a friend of mine and I are starting a single player campaign, he as the DM and myself as the PC. I really have it stuck in my head to play a Human (Halruaan) Wizard, starting at level 5. The campaign will be based solely on this character, and may have NPC hirelings and NPC cohorts at certain times, but never for long.

What I am asking for here, from you CO guru's, is any advice on making a wizard most capable of surviving on his own.

It may not be the 'sickest' damage build ever, or the most sought after, but please help me do whatever it takes to make this work as best as possible.

A few points to touch on would be -

Initiate of the sevenfold veil - is this a viable class to work toward for single player?

Improved Familiar/Celestial Faimiliar - Are these worth the feat expenditure?

Leadership - Same as above.

Any further info you have, or questions feel free to post them. I will keep an eye out tonight for anything. Lots of time to kill at work on nightshift.

Thanks folks.
PhaedrusXY
02-25-06, 07:26 PM Well, I don't know if it will be terribly useful to you, but here is a 9th level core 3.0 wizard I made for the "Wizard's Challenge" thread a while back. He was supposed to be built to be able to single-handedly face anything with a CR of 9 or lower and win, so I put alot of thought into trying to cover up his weaknesses and come up with tactics to use against different kinds of enemies. He was an Abjuration specialist, and I think IoSV would be a good PrC choice for this type of character. The guy running that thread was doing it with no thought to any Errata or FAQs, so some of the stuff I used was pretty insane (like Polymorphing into a Solar at level 9...).

You also might want to check out the Share Spells thread in my sig, and the Getting the Most Out of Your Familiar thread (which can be found via the Optimization Library). I think Familiars can be quite useful, even without the Improved Familiar feat. I'd suggest that you get Use Magic Device as a class skill somehow, and get a Familiar with a decent Charisma score. That way it can give you an extra "spell" each round by using your wands and staves.

Oh, and the Bags of Tricks are insanely useful for their low cost. Definitely get one. Likewise for some of the Quaal's Feather Tokens. :D

Edit: Oh, and I think this might be a case where losing a caster level might be worth it to add some skills to your class list. Either a level of Rogue, or 3 levels of Human Paragon, with the Able Learner feat, would be a decent way of doing that from the beginning.
Ivarrius
02-25-06, 07:31 PM Thanks Phaedrus,

Your post shows that at the very least, it is possible to do this, without making it a total suicide mission.

And IotSV is one of those classes that I find would just be worth taking, for the protection element of it, which the wizard will need.

Anyone else?
Saion2014
02-25-06, 07:44 PM Whether Leadership is worth it or not is really a matter of one very simple question: Can you afford Charisma? The expenditure of a feat is easily worth it to get a reliable meatshield, healer, or skill monkey, but boosting your Charisma may be difficult, and situational modifiers only go so far.

Regardless of whether or not you can afford Leadership, I'd suggest becoming an Arcane Disciple of the Healing domain, so you can keep yourself from quick death (RP permitting, of course). Also, if you aren't married to the idea of a straight caster, I think that becoming at least a partial gish could help your survivability.

If this is unappealing to you, then I recommend that you look into some of the spells from the Conjuration domain. Simple things like Stinking Cloud or Wall of Ice would force your opponents to stay back and play nice while you pummel them with spells, summon creatures at their feet, or whatever other means you prefer to use to cause havoc.

P.S. I think Improved Familiar is a waste of a feat, unless you have something very specific that you want it for, like polymorphing it into archons or demons or whathaveyou.
Ivarrius
02-25-06, 08:10 PM I am sure the ability scores will be fairly high, as in at the very least a 32 point buy. But more likely, he will make up rolls, including an 18, I would assume, that I will be able to place wherever. So decent charisma may not be too difficult to attain.

Understood on Improved Familiar. I didn't really have a plan for making my familiar an uber powerful baby-cohort. Just curious on whether or not it would help a single PC.
runestar
02-25-06, 10:40 PM Incantatrix? You can persist all your buffs for free if you get get your spellcraft check high enough.
Ivarrius
02-25-06, 10:43 PM Incantatrix? You can persist all your buffs for free if you get get your spellcraft check high enough.

whoa whoa... how does that work?
tiejaz
02-25-06, 10:50 PM well, get an Aasimar Marshal as a cohort. Give him leadership.
His cohort and followers will augment you alot.
focus on abjuration, to protect your minions, and conjuration to bring in even more combatants.

And remember, if all else fails, be a C.O.D.zilla.
Kresalak
02-25-06, 11:03 PM Ask your DM if you can play Gestalt, since in a single player campaign it won't be overpowered, and is in fact made for such games.
runestar
02-25-06, 11:17 PM Incantatrix is a prc in Players guide to faerun. One of the most powerful spellcasting prcs, IMO. One of its class features lets you apply any metamagic feat to an effect already in place, provided you make a hefty spellcraft check. So you could cast your buff on yourself, then apply the persistant spell feat on the spell, and hope to make the successful spellcraft check. So if you wish to take this up, start boosting your int, and stock up on feats which improve your spellcraft check, as well as items that grant competence bonus to spellcraft. ;) Too bad you can't persist summon monster spells, so you might want to nab leadership and grab a tank cohort.

It will also, over the course of 10 lvs, grant 4 bonus metamagic feats, some other powerful metamagic related class features, and at lv10, grants the 3.0 version of the improved metamagic feat as a class ability. :eek: The drawback is that you must lose a school when you take the prc.

Its the kind of class that requires some extra effort to really get its motor running, but once you do...
Ivarrius
02-25-06, 11:29 PM Its the kind of class that requires some extra effort to really get its motor running, but once you do...

As a human, I could simply take the 3 feats from LEoF to get that school back then, couldn't I?

Spell Reprieve, Item Reprieve and Arcane Transfiguration?

Would that work?
Kresalak
02-26-06, 12:36 AM I believe you could, yes. Since you're already Halruaan, you might want to look into the Halruaan Elder PrC, if you have that sourcebook (Shining South I believe).
TheHumanDynamo
02-26-06, 12:44 AM I know that at 7th and above Wizards are EASILY solo charecters to play. Evards + stinking cloud or Evard's + acid fog allow you to control fights without a problem.

If you are not allowed to play a gestalt, you may want to look into Mindbender (Complete Arcane) or Bonded Summoner(Miniature's Handbook) to pack a punch. One allows you to begin controlling others, while the other turns your familiar into an elemental, and it just keeps getting bigger. The drawback though is that you progress at every other level for spellcasting. Running around with an Elder Elemental or a Wartroll as your thrall can be very interesting though :D
Ivarrius
02-26-06, 01:00 AM I believe you could, yes. Since you're already Halruaan, you might want to look into the Halruaan Elder PrC, if you have that sourcebook (Shining South I believe).

I will look into that as I have Shining South on order right now.
jstorrie
02-26-06, 01:11 AM The most obvious suggestion is to have decent Dex and Con scores, as those will help your saves.

Tactically speaking, anything that gets close enough to threaten you is a problem. You might consider cross-classing Spot, Listen or Search to make sure that you never walk blind into anything. Starting as a Wiz 4 / Rogue 1 might be a good idea - that will give you a bump up on your Reflex saves, a few more skill points to work with, and trapfinding. Walking into traps, I should point out, will also be a bad idea.

Your feats are going to be pretty tight. Craft Wand, Craft Staff and Craft Wondrous Item could all prove very useful if you have the downtime between adventures to use them, but be careful that they don't eat up too many of your few feat slots. In the long term, Halruaan Elder, Geometer, Initiate of the Seven Veils and Divine Oracle could all be very useful for your character - pick one or two and figure out how you'll mix them together to keep the best balance of skills. I can't stress enough how much you'll need to provide your own Searching, Spotting and Listening as a solo character.
Ivarrius
02-26-06, 01:37 AM The Alertness feat granted by a familiar should also help those skills a bit.

I had considered taking a level of rogue first as well, both for the RP aspect of the character (Which I haven't explained here) and the survivability aspect. However, I find it difficult to give up the caster level, and the acquisition of the higher levels spells. Especially since I will be relying on them greatly.

Divine Oracle is a good idea though, and I hadn't thought of that. Perhaps that PrC should warrant another glance.
X-Codes
02-26-06, 01:53 AM I also have to say that taking Able Learner and a level of Rogue at first level is perhaps the best way to do this, period. Between Trapfinding and 52 skill points at first level it's the obvious choice. Able Learner will then let you continue droppping full ranks into UMD, Spot, Search, and whatever else you want.
Ivarrius
02-26-06, 01:58 AM I also have to say that taking Able Learner and a level of Rogue at first level is perhaps the best way to do this, period. Between Trapfinding and 52 skill points at first level it's the obvious choice. Able Learner will then let you continue droppping full ranks into UMD, Spot, Search, and whatever else you want.
Where is able learner?
runestar
02-26-06, 02:08 AM Races of destiny.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ivarrius 02-25-06, 07:13 PM	Good evening folks, In the next coming weeks, a friend of mine and I are starting a single player campaign, he as the DM and myself as the PC. I really have it stuck in my head to play a Human (Halruaan) Wizard, starting at level 5. The campaign will be based solely on this character, and may have NPC hirelings and NPC cohorts at certain times, but never for long. What I am asking for here, from you CO guru's, is any advice on making a wizard most capable of surviving on his own. It may not be the 'sickest' damage build ever, or the most sought after, but please help me do whatever it takes to make this work as best as possible. A few points to touch on would be - Initiate of the sevenfold veil - is this a viable class to work toward for single player? Improved Familiar/Celestial Faimiliar - Are these worth the feat expenditure? Leadership - Same as above. Any further info you have, or questions feel free to post them. I will keep an eye out tonight for anything. Lots of time to kill at work on nightshift. Thanks folks.
PhaedrusXY 02-25-06, 07:26 PM	Well, I don't know if it will be terribly useful to you, but here is a 9th level core 3.0 wizard I made for the "Wizard's Challenge" thread a while back. He was supposed to be built to be able to single-handedly face anything with a CR of 9 or lower and win, so I put alot of thought into trying to cover up his weaknesses and come up with tactics to use against different kinds of enemies. He was an Abjuration specialist, and I think IoSV would be a good PrC choice for this type of character. The guy running that thread was doing it with no thought to any Errata or FAQs, so some of the stuff I used was pretty insane (like Polymorphing into a Solar at level 9...). You also might want to check out the Share Spells thread in my sig, and the Getting the Most Out of Your Familiar thread (which can be found via the Optimization Library). I think Familiars can be quite useful, even without the Improved Familiar feat. I'd suggest that you get Use Magic Device as a class skill somehow, and get a Familiar with a decent Charisma score. That way it can give you an extra "spell" each round by using your wands and staves. Oh, and the Bags of Tricks are insanely useful for their low cost. Definitely get one. Likewise for some of the Quaal's Feather Tokens. :D Edit: Oh, and I think this might be a case where losing a caster level might be worth it to add some skills to your class list. Either a level of Rogue, or 3 levels of Human Paragon, with the Able Learner feat, would be a decent way of doing that from the beginning.
Ivarrius 02-25-06, 07:31 PM	Thanks Phaedrus, Your post shows that at the very least, it is possible to do this, without making it a total suicide mission. And IotSV is one of those classes that I find would just be worth taking, for the protection element of it, which the wizard will need. Anyone else?
Saion2014 02-25-06, 07:44 PM	Whether Leadership is worth it or not is really a matter of one very simple question: Can you afford Charisma? The expenditure of a feat is easily worth it to get a reliable meatshield, healer, or skill monkey, but boosting your Charisma may be difficult, and situational modifiers only go so far. Regardless of whether or not you can afford Leadership, I'd suggest becoming an Arcane Disciple of the Healing domain, so you can keep yourself from quick death (RP permitting, of course). Also, if you aren't married to the idea of a straight caster, I think that becoming at least a partial gish could help your survivability. If this is unappealing to you, then I recommend that you look into some of the spells from the Conjuration domain. Simple things like Stinking Cloud or Wall of Ice would force your opponents to stay back and play nice while you pummel them with spells, summon creatures at their feet, or whatever other means you prefer to use to cause havoc. P.S. I think Improved Familiar is a waste of a feat, unless you have something very specific that you want it for, like polymorphing it into archons or demons or whathaveyou.
Ivarrius 02-25-06, 08:10 PM	I am sure the ability scores will be fairly high, as in at the very least a 32 point buy. But more likely, he will make up rolls, including an 18, I would assume, that I will be able to place wherever. So decent charisma may not be too difficult to attain. Understood on Improved Familiar. I didn't really have a plan for making my familiar an uber powerful baby-cohort. Just curious on whether or not it would help a single PC.
runestar 02-25-06, 10:40 PM	Incantatrix? You can persist all your buffs for free if you get get your spellcraft check high enough.
Ivarrius 02-25-06, 10:43 PM	Incantatrix? You can persist all your buffs for free if you get get your spellcraft check high enough. whoa whoa... how does that work?
tiejaz 02-25-06, 10:50 PM	well, get an Aasimar Marshal as a cohort. Give him leadership. His cohort and followers will augment you alot. focus on abjuration, to protect your minions, and conjuration to bring in even more combatants. And remember, if all else fails, be a C.O.D.zilla.
Kresalak 02-25-06, 11:03 PM	Ask your DM if you can play Gestalt, since in a single player campaign it won't be overpowered, and is in fact made for such games.
runestar 02-25-06, 11:17 PM	Incantatrix is a prc in Players guide to faerun. One of the most powerful spellcasting prcs, IMO. One of its class features lets you apply any metamagic feat to an effect already in place, provided you make a hefty spellcraft check. So you could cast your buff on yourself, then apply the persistant spell feat on the spell, and hope to make the successful spellcraft check. So if you wish to take this up, start boosting your int, and stock up on feats which improve your spellcraft check, as well as items that grant competence bonus to spellcraft. ;) Too bad you can't persist summon monster spells, so you might want to nab leadership and grab a tank cohort. It will also, over the course of 10 lvs, grant 4 bonus metamagic feats, some other powerful metamagic related class features, and at lv10, grants the 3.0 version of the improved metamagic feat as a class ability. :eek: The drawback is that you must lose a school when you take the prc. Its the kind of class that requires some extra effort to really get its motor running, but once you do...
Ivarrius 02-25-06, 11:29 PM	Its the kind of class that requires some extra effort to really get its motor running, but once you do... As a human, I could simply take the 3 feats from LEoF to get that school back then, couldn't I? Spell Reprieve, Item Reprieve and Arcane Transfiguration? Would that work?
Kresalak 02-26-06, 12:36 AM	I believe you could, yes. Since you're already Halruaan, you might want to look into the Halruaan Elder PrC, if you have that sourcebook (Shining South I believe).
TheHumanDynamo 02-26-06, 12:44 AM	I know that at 7th and above Wizards are EASILY solo charecters to play. Evards + stinking cloud or Evard's + acid fog allow you to control fights without a problem. If you are not allowed to play a gestalt, you may want to look into Mindbender (Complete Arcane) or Bonded Summoner(Miniature's Handbook) to pack a punch. One allows you to begin controlling others, while the other turns your familiar into an elemental, and it just keeps getting bigger. The drawback though is that you progress at every other level for spellcasting. Running around with an Elder Elemental or a Wartroll as your thrall can be very interesting though :D
Ivarrius 02-26-06, 01:00 AM	I believe you could, yes. Since you're already Halruaan, you might want to look into the Halruaan Elder PrC, if you have that sourcebook (Shining South I believe). I will look into that as I have Shining South on order right now.
jstorrie 02-26-06, 01:11 AM	The most obvious suggestion is to have decent Dex and Con scores, as those will help your saves. Tactically speaking, anything that gets close enough to threaten you is a problem. You might consider cross-classing Spot, Listen or Search to make sure that you never walk blind into anything. Starting as a Wiz 4 / Rogue 1 might be a good idea - that will give you a bump up on your Reflex saves, a few more skill points to work with, and trapfinding. Walking into traps, I should point out, will also be a bad idea. Your feats are going to be pretty tight. Craft Wand, Craft Staff and Craft Wondrous Item could all prove very useful if you have the downtime between adventures to use them, but be careful that they don't eat up too many of your few feat slots. In the long term, Halruaan Elder, Geometer, Initiate of the Seven Veils and Divine Oracle could all be very useful for your character - pick one or two and figure out how you'll mix them together to keep the best balance of skills. I can't stress enough how much you'll need to provide your own Searching, Spotting and Listening as a solo character.
Ivarrius 02-26-06, 01:37 AM	The Alertness feat granted by a familiar should also help those skills a bit. I had considered taking a level of rogue first as well, both for the RP aspect of the character (Which I haven't explained here) and the survivability aspect. However, I find it difficult to give up the caster level, and the acquisition of the higher levels spells. Especially since I will be relying on them greatly. Divine Oracle is a good idea though, and I hadn't thought of that. Perhaps that PrC should warrant another glance.
X-Codes 02-26-06, 01:53 AM	I also have to say that taking Able Learner and a level of Rogue at first level is perhaps the best way to do this, period. Between Trapfinding and 52 skill points at first level it's the obvious choice. Able Learner will then let you continue droppping full ranks into UMD, Spot, Search, and whatever else you want.
Ivarrius 02-26-06, 01:58 AM	I also have to say that taking Able Learner and a level of Rogue at first level is perhaps the best way to do this, period. Between Trapfinding and 52 skill points at first level it's the obvious choice. Able Learner will then let you continue droppping full ranks into UMD, Spot, Search, and whatever else you want. Where is able learner?
runestar 02-26-06, 02:08 AM	Races of destiny.