Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Elvish Presley 01-28-05, 09:34 AM	Ok, With some very good advice from these boards, I have built myself a nice assassin powerhouse: Saint Brutus the Wise Formerly Human, now Outsider Lvl 1 Monk - Sacred VoW, VoW of Poverty Lvl 1 Monk/Lvl 1 Rogue - Servant of the Heavens Lvl 1 Monk/Lvl 2 Rogue Weapon Focus Quarterstaff Lvl 1 Monk/Lvl 3 Rogue Intuitive Attack Lvl 1 Monk/Lvl 4 Rogue Lvl 1 Monk/Lvl5 Rogue Sanctify Martial Strike, Ascetic Rogue Lvl 1 Monk/Lvl 5 Rogue/Lvl1 Slayer of Domiel And on top of that, I'll add the Saint Template (since the +2 lvl adjustment has to be earned xp wise after you gain the template and not before). Starting with 18 Wis, which increases to 20 at lvl 7 due to VoW of Poverty, and an additional +2 to Wis from Sainthood, I feel I can justify nicknaming him Brutus the Wise ;) In addition, I have a 17 I haven't placed, I need at least 15 Cha BEFORE Sainthood and have an ability score to raise at lvl 4. Sadly, I don't remeber the 4 stats aside from the 17 and 18, but they are in the middle somewhere. With all the abilities and whatnots this build gives, I would get fairly insane for a lvl 7 character (even without Sainthood). And I get to be an Assassin, which what I was hoping for in the first place...I'm just an extremely nice one :D Anyhow, any comments on any wise changes and/or where to put my hopeful new levels once the campaign starts? :)
AviLazar 01-28-05, 01:24 PM	It looks pretty good - though I am still having some :twitch: ing feeling about a saint being an assassin. Just sounds well so unsaintly like.
rilem 01-28-05, 01:53 PM	It may be exalted, but that doesn't mean it's good, sadly. Vow of Poverty always is problematic, but especially so for Rogues. In addition to the usual VoP problems (penetrating DR, flying opponents, etc.) your thief abilities such as Disable Device, Open Lock, etc. are neutered. Rogues are VERY gear-dependent. This is especially problematic for assassins. No sneaking into the evil guy's castle with Open Lock or a Dimension Door scroll (with UMD). The Slayer's spell list is OK, but not enough to make up for what you lose through VoP. You're also very lacking in BAB. With the Saint template, you have a ECL9 PC with a BAB of +3. Even with Inuitive Attack and saint bonus, that's a big YUCK right there. Good luck hitting anything. Finally, you've got tremendous MAD issues — Wisdom for Monk/spells, Int for Death Attack, Con because your HP are low, Dex to help your AC, Cha for Divine grace. If you can find your target out in the open (unarmored, hopefully) you'll be in good shape. Otherwise — well, at least you'll go to Heaven.
Sir Critical Hit 01-28-05, 01:54 PM	You guys are lucky my DM would never let me bring something like that mainly because well it's way overpowered and if the game had any storyline that was SANE :noway: then they would have to get rid of that SOOO FREKIN LUCKY :mad: :mad: :mad:
Qaetar 01-28-05, 02:58 PM	Things that people may or may not realize: 1. Slayer of Domiel is an Exalted Prestige Class for Good characters. It is the Good assassin. 2. Rogues only take a -2 to Disable Device/Open Lock checks for using "improvised tools." However, everyone is very right about your BAB sucking. You may wish to focus on Charging or using some other tactic that affords you a single, powerful attack per round. Perhaps some Psionic dip to attain the Psionic attacks that require a Focus and thus an MEA per round. (Qaetar)
rilem 01-28-05, 04:21 PM	Things that people may or may not realize: 1. Slayer of Domiel is an Exalted Prestige Class for Good characters. It is the Good assassin. 2. Rogues only take a -2 to Disable Device/Open Lock checks for using "improvised tools." (Qaetar) 1. I do realize that — My exalted-not-good comment was merely a snarky remark on my estimation of the build's effectiveness. 2. Didn't realize that. However, we're a little beyond "improvised tools" here. He has NOTHING. Not a penknife, not a nail file, not a paper clip. I think I'd up that circumstance penalty in such a situation. At the least, he should swap that staff for a dagger. VoP is best at low levels, but this guy will have growing problems throughout his career. He'd be much better off without it. The only solid ways I've seen around the Vow's significant limitations are Psionic. Using PsychicRogue as the base would be better — you could use MicroKinesis to handle lockpicking, and Deep Impact would help you make sure your Death Attack actually hits your opponent. ADDENDUM: Just looked at Slayer again (first two levels, anyway, which are all I could find), and their "Death Attack" is AWFUL! It's a touch attack, which is nice, but a Death-Domain like Death Touch based on Slayer level will kill nothing at your ECL. It gets better, right? Right? Or I'm confused? If not — if the SoD doesn't get an actual Death Attack at some point, dump it altogether and go with Dark Hunter instead.
Qaetar 01-28-05, 08:34 PM	1. I realize that. I meant the comments similar to "Any DM allowing an Exalted Assassin is an idiot." 2. Hmm. Without tools at all is only -4, I believe.
Qaetar 01-28-05, 08:35 PM	1. I realize that. I meant the comments similar to "Any DM allowing an Exalted Assassin is an idiot." 2. Without tools at all is also only at -2. PH, pg 79: "Attempting an Open Lock check without a set of thieves' tools imposes a -2 circumstance penalty." I'm really off my mark today. I'm too tired. (Qaetar)
Elvish Presley 01-29-05, 03:26 PM	Thank you for the replies :) I realize that my BAB is terrible, but as the build is right now, my attacks are as follows: Improved Unarmed Strike: +10 melee (1d8+1 plus 1d6 holy vs. evil and 1d8 holy vs. evil undeads and evil outsiders). As for DR, this attack is considered magical. Quarterstaff: +11 melee (1d6+1 plus 1d6 holy vs. evil and 1d8 holy vs. evil undeads and evil outsiders plus +1 vs evil and 1d4 vs evil undeads and evil outsiders. The quarterstaff is considered good aligned. Any other simple, plain weapon I should happen to pick up will have the same stats as my Improved Unarmed Strike. In addition, there is also the Flurry of Blows ability at -2/-2. I'm thinking and hoping that isn't too terrible. Also, my AC is 32 (and it just keeps on going up as I advance in level), and I have a ton of abilities which make me rather hard to take down. My Sneak attack is 4d6 and 4d8 Good aligned damage vs evil (I realized I had one spare Exalted Feat and chose Sacred Strike). Now, the Slayer of Domiel might not be the best PrC out there, but it still gives me a 1d6 dmg touch attack pr. slayer level (is that damage cumulative with the saint dmg additions?) in additon to +1d6 sneak attack pr. two levels. Also, there is no way I would be able to pick any PrC which require a BAB of +5 yet without totally ditching the whole build. As for future progression, I am thinking I'll take another two levels of SoD, and then start looking at the Kensai PrC, enhancing my fists for additional damage. Oh, and I was a bit worried what the DM would say when I introduiced this character, so I had a little chat with him yesterday. He was thrilled! :D My character fits his campaign ideas perfectly (you know, Saint Brutus the Wise, the meak and generous one over at the Domiel monastery....the one they send in to deal with the beings the paladins can't handle....instead of standing outside the lair hollering to the dragon to get out and fight like a man, he sneaks in and kills him instead...or something to that effect :D .....as for an exalted Saint assassin, as fishy as it might seem, we are talking about someone who only kills those who cannot be saved, those who are too great a danger to be allowed the precious gift of live.....and I'm sure history is full of RL Saints with blood on their hands ;) ), and while I was trying to tell him that I haven't even started talking about all the crazy abilities yet he was just saying "I don't care! Go with it!" :D He did get a rather worried look on his face when I told him about my AC, though :) I'm thinking I'll be the scout/tank of the party now. The other two will be an arcane caster of sorts and a fighter damage dealer. As for healing, let's just hope we never get hurt :D
rilem 01-29-05, 04:56 PM	Couple things: - That 1d6 per level Death Touch isn't damage. It's like a mini Power Word Kill -- if the roll exceeds their level, they die. If it doesn't, nothing happens. - Your attack bonus is +3 BAB + 6 Wisdom +1 Weapon focus = +10 with the staff, right? Am I missing something? This isn't awful, but a 9th level Rogue with weapon finesse and a magic weapon can easily beat it. And he'll have more attacks than you, b/c his BAB is +6. - Kensai -- Great with monk. Good with VoP monk. Lousy with Monk/Rogue/Saint/SlayerofDomiel, because it's ANOTHER hit to your BAB. At this rate you won't get your second base attack until level 13.
Elvish Presley 01-29-05, 05:31 PM	Good points. Checked up on the Death Touch, and it doesn't deal damage. I have to roll a number greater than the target's current hit points in order to kill it, so it's a die/no dmg thing yes...bleh :( The +11 comes from Exalted Strike (an effect from VoP), it gives a +1 enhancement bonus to all my attack and damage rolls. And you are totally right about the Kensai. For some reason, I automatically took that one for a PrC giving +1 BAB pr. lvl.....snif :( Hmmm.....would I be better off going: Fighter 2/Monk 1/Rogue 4/Saint? That would land me two more Feats, and I could free up two more rather useless Feats (Weapon focus Quarterstaff and Sanctify Martial Strike). I would lose 2d6 sneak dmg, though..... Hmmmm...going Monk 2/Rogue 5 would mean I only lose 1d6 sneak attack and gain one less Feat.....bleh...too many choices :) I would be at +5 BAB, and could choose Kensai class PrC once I gain enough xp to level up (some odd 27.000 xp :P ) Enhancing my fists would give me the ability to deal a lot of damage, but is it worth sacrificing the BAB? Also, another thing I'm worried about, is the fighter damage dealer. He seems to be set on making a regular Wood Elf Fighter. And since our DM is giving us 100GP (I know, don't ask) to buy gear for, he might feel useless (his highest stat is 14)..... I'm trying to look at good builds for him, though, and will try to help him make something which is bound to totally outshine me when it comes to dmg.
rilem 01-29-05, 05:42 PM	So you're 7th level but only have 100 gp to spend on your character? Ew. As you can tell I'm not a fan of Vow of Poverty, but it makes a LOT more sense in this scenario. If you're going to be poor anyway ... I do think you're better off without the Slayer concept -- Kensai is a better choice for VoP down the road. However, you should try to get some spellcasting eventually, as VoP really starts to bite in late levels. I'd sacrifice the sneak attack for BAB -- sneak attack is too easily to nullify, while BAB is with you always.