Post/Author/DateTime	Post
seekanddestroy 11-07-03, 02:38 PM	FRCS Ranger1/Fighter4/Order of the Bow1 Str:20 Dex:20 Con:13 Wis:15 Int:12 Cha:10 Feats: P.B.S., Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus (c. long bow), Track (1st level Ranger), Weapon Spec., Improved Init. Me and a Monk are the front line fighters. I was planning on going to seven levels of Order of the Bow and taking the rest Ranger to 20. Or after second Ootbi, taking the rest in Ranger. If I take 7 levels of order of the bow I was going to take the zen archery feat at ninth level this would stack with the Ootbi's zen archery and if I add a point to my wisdom at 8th that would give me an additional +3 to hit with ranged attacks. He is going to be from Icewind Dale if Wood Elves can be from there.
seekanddestroy 11-07-03, 03:34 PM	Sorry I didn't finish awhile ago, I want this character to be one of the best archers there is also I want him to be a survivalist. Any suggestions welcome.
The Axeman 11-07-03, 09:13 PM	I have a build similar to this. First of all leave your str alone and pump Dex if you want the best archer. Taking lvls in OoTBI to get Zen Archery will not help you because Zen Archery lets you use your WIS bonus IN PLACE OF your Dex bonus. You don't want to do that because your dex bonus is higher and will be much higher after you pump dex. 1.Take the Manyshot feat. 2. Take Deepwood Sniper to at least 4nd lvl to gain keen arrows, projectile improved critical, range incremement increase, and concealment reduction. 3. finish out the OoTBI class to get free attack (you can take an attack of opportunity on an ememy any time they provoke an attack of opportunity from your allies), superior weapon focus, and banked shot. So you will have crit of 18-20 x 5, range increase, concealment reduction, safe poison use, banked shot, ranged sneak attack all your arrows will act as +2 magic arrows. Pump your hide and move silenty get cloak and boots of elvenkind then 1. hide 2. sneak attack with manyshot even though only one arrow gets sneak attack dmg. repeat In 3.5 you are allowed to take one attack while hiding then immediately hide again with a -20 penalty so pump the hide. Also if you have an arrow knocked at the beginning of combat you get an extra attack so you would get 4 attacks right now instead of 3 with rapid shot. Also take Combat Reflexes so you can get up to 4 (equal to our dex modifier) attacks of opportunity on 4 seperate enemies. Lastly, wood elves do not live in Icewind Dale. Your best bet would be to have him come from the High Forest.
seekanddestroy 11-07-03, 09:34 PM	But if you have the Zen archery feat before you get it in Ootbi, your wisdom mod stacks with your dex.
Fiendish Dire Weasel 11-07-03, 09:37 PM	I think the choice between Fighter and Ranger levels is the choice between if you want to expand you abilities in combat (Fighter) or outside of combat (Ranger) more. The suggestion above though about Deepwood Sniper is a good one. Rng1/Ftr4 and then the next 15 levels some combination of OotBI & Deepwood Sniper. Both offer good abilities, so its just a matter of balancing out the two classes to get the best abilities of the two. High strength isn't too bad of a thing for an archer build as "mighty" bows that add strength damage is a good way to keep your damage up. I don't know if bows can go past +4 damage from strength, if so you may want to rearrange stats to get a 16-18str.
ksbsnowowl 11-08-03, 01:11 AM	Hmmm.... you're in the Realms, so this is the ideal time to think about going into the Peerless Archer PrC (it's in the Forgotten Realms accessory Silver Marches.) You are almost exactly right on track for the ultimate archer build that I want to use someday. My build would use a human, but it can also be done fairly easily with a wood elf. Here is a non-human progression: non-human Level Class Feats Class Abilities 1 Ranger PBShot, Track Fav En (humans), TWF*, Ambidex* 2 Fighter Precise Shot BF 3 Fighter Rapid Shot, WF BF 4 Fighter 5 Fighter Weap Spec BF/WS 6 OotBI Far Shot RSA +1d6 7 OotBI Close Combat Shot 8 OotBI RSA +2d6 9 OotBI Quick Draw Sup Weap Foc 10 Peer Arch Expert Bowyer, RSA +3d6 11 Peer Arch Sharp Shooting 1, Fletching +1 12 Peer Arch Manyshot Power Shot 13 Peer Arch RSA +4d6, Fletching +2 14 Peer Arch Sharp Shooting 2 15 Peer Arch Combat Reflexes Fletching +3 16 Peer Arch RSA +5d6 17 Peer Arch Threaten, Fletching +4 18 OotBI Zen Archery RSA +6d6 19 OotBI Free Attack, Zen Archery 20 OotBI Sup. Weap. Spec. Saves Fort +14 Ref +8 Will +8 The only downer about the Peer Arch is that it requires the quick draw feat for entry (however, this can come in handy in the first round if you accidentally bump into a group of baddies as it would allow you to get off a full attack the first round even if you didn't have your bow out.) There is only one thing that this might hinge on: did you just get 6th level and did you choose Imp. Init. as your 6th level feat? If so, would your DM let you change your choice to far shot or quick draw? If he won't, Imp. Init will still serve you well, but IMO not as well as Zen Archery (x2), Combat Reflexes, or Manyshot. Now just a few points about the Peerless Archer in case you are unfamiliar with it. He gets Ranged Sneak Attack like an OotBI, but every 3 levels instead of every other level. He gains the ability to ignore progressively higher degrees of concealment AND cover (the deepwood sniper's ability only negates concealment.) - note, this basically duplicates a great majority of the Improved Precise Shot feat from 3.5 (minus the grappling bonus). He gets the ability to craft magical arrows without having to take the Craft Magical Weapons feat (this may not be such a big deal if you are playing 3.5, which it looks like you may be, since you don't have Ambidex and TWF). They get the ability to basically do a Power Attack with a bow (negative from BAB, add to damage). And lastly, at 8th level they gain the ability to threaten at 10', treating their bow as a ten foot reach weapon, thus allowing attacks of opportunity against approaching foes and allowing them to flank in order to gain Sneak attacks (although the flanking does depend on how your DM interprets it). Combine the threaten ability with your high dex score and Combat Reflexes, and you'll be getting quite a few AoO once the bad guys close to melee range. A combination of OotBI and Peerless Archer is the ultimate fighter-based archer in my humble opinion. Hopefully this will give you something to think about. Happy Gaming. PS- Another tip, try to get your hands on a wand of Hunter's Mercy. HM is a 1st level Ranger spell found in Magic of Fearun that makes your nextbow shot auto hit and threaten a critical. This spell can be devastating when combined with the Peerless Archer's Power Shot ability (as well as the increased crit multipliers from Oathbows and the DWS PrC). And before you gasp and declare that rangers can't cast spells until 4th level, let me inform you that they can use wands at any level, even with only one level of ranger. Thus, you can use any wand of a ranger spell:) The relevant text is found on page 175 of the 3.0 DMG (I'm not sure what page it is in the 3.5 DMG, but it is still there.) Also, here is the relevant text from the 3.5 SRD: Spell Trigger: Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it’s even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken. Anyone with a spell on his or her spell list knows how to use a spell trigger item that stores that spell. (This is the case even for a character who can’t actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin.) The user must still determine what spell is stored in the item before she can activate it. Activating a spell trigger item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.Emphasis mine Oh, and just incase you didn't know, wands use the spell trigger method of activation.
The Axeman 11-08-03, 02:16 AM	I've already been through this with my characters. Peerless Archer/OotBI gives no advantages over DWS/OotBI. Peerless Archer: Must pay XP to make magic arrows, cover and concealment reduction (not that great). DWS: magic arrows at no cost, projectile Improved Critical AND keen arrows. Hello? That is like 18-20 x 5 or 6 depending on how many lvls u take. Concealment reduction, range incremenent increase. Plus you get the best abilites in the first 3 lvls!! OotBI: Ranged Sneak attack better than Peerless Archer, free attack (godly), superior weapon focus, zen archery, on and on. Just think free attack + combat reflexes + keen + sneak attack+ x5 crit? You would be hard pressed to beat that. I'd put my DWS/OotBI up against any combination involving Peerless Archer.
Laelenie 11-08-03, 07:03 AM	Ranger3/FIgther4/DWS7/horizon6 ddoor full attack full attack - ddoor full attack full attack - ddoor full attack full attack - ddoor full attack full attack - ddoor full attack full attack - ddoor full attack full attack - ddoor full attack full attack - ddoor full attack full attack - ddoor full attack full attack - ddoor full attack full attack - ddoor full attack full attack - Ranger2/FIgther4/OotBi7/DWS2/Pa3/Barbarian 2 melee shooter (human for xp penalty)
seekanddestroy 11-08-03, 12:15 PM	I appreciate all the help, also from this I realize that to be the most effective archer is to combine Prs. If say I wanted to be a ranger,fighter,ootbi,ds,and even Pa, how could I explain this and how could I convince my DM to allow it. I'm thinking Ranger1/Fighter4/Ootbi2/Deepwood Sniper2/and then back to Ootbi to 7th level and then Ranger the rest of the way. Storyline being something like Wood Elf who started in the forest and needed a way to better increase his archer ability. So he left for more focused training. And later after the training returns to his beginnings in the forest. Would a DM buy this.
The Axeman 11-08-03, 12:52 PM	Yeah he should be ok with it. Telling him now what you plan on doing would be a good idea because then he can put some things in the campaign that will help you role play your characters choices/training etc. With my character I was just a bow-oriented fighter until I was captured by some wood elves then I was taught the secrets of the DWS which awakened a deeper understanding of archery and myself, which naturally led to OotBI.
seekanddestroy 11-08-03, 01:29 PM	Axeman how did you take your levels. Did you take all you DS levels and then take Ootbi or did you mix them up as you went along. Ideally I would like to take 2 levels of Ootbi to get close combat shot since I will be 1 of 2 frontline fighters. And then take 2 levels of DS to get the keen arrows and improved projectile critical. And then go back to Ootbi.
ksbsnowowl 11-08-03, 01:31 PM	Axeman, the guy asked for advice. I gave him my advice as I'm sure many other people will give him their advice; he is free to look at the merits of each build and choose the one he wants. I really didn't want to get into this with you again, but since you brought it up: Originally posted by The Axeman Peerless Archer/OotBI gives no advantages over DWS/OotBI. Peerless Archer: Must pay XP to make magic arrows, cover and concealment reduction (not that great). Umm... hello? Power shot and threaten are not advantages? Again, you are over-generalizing, and that usually makes for a weak argument once the over-generalizations are pointed out. Also, if cover and concealment reduction isn't that great, why are you toting a lesser version of it as one of the great granted abilities of the DWS? Also, one advantage that an OotBI/PeerArch build has is synergistic abilities. OotBI is more of a close-combat archer. Yes, archery from far away is great, but many times, especially indoors and underground, encounter distances are confined to corridors and relatively small rooms. The threaten ability synergizes well with the OotBI's close-combat shot ability. His Sneak Attack stacks with that of the OotBI, in the end granting MORE sneak attack dice than an OotBI 10/DWS X. DWS: magic arrows at no cost, projectile Improved Critical AND keen arrows. Hello? That is like 18-20 x 5 or 6 depending on how many lvls u take. Concealment reduction, range incremenent increase. The DWS cannot make magic arrows. Magic Weapon is able to be cast once per day and lasts minutes per casting. Look at the spell description, it says nothing about being able to affect ammunition. The Greater version can do it (it specifically states, "In addition..."), but not the 1st level spell. Also, look at the wording of the ability in the DWS class. "Magic Weapon: At 2nd level......This ability is usable once per day on projectile weapons only." On projectile weapons, not projectile ammunition; and yes, there is a difference. I will admit, the keen arrows and imp. crit. multipliers are very nice, and I would think about putting two levels of DWS into my build in order to get them, except that I would have to lose the free shot and zen archery abilities from OotBI to fit them in, and in my opinion, it isn't necessarily better than those two abilities. However, if you are in a pinch for an increased crit multiplier, pick up an oath bow. Concealment reduction: DWS gets the ability to ignore 10% (one-quarter) concealment at second level. Why, the Peerless Archer gets to ignore the first step of concealment (10% miss chance) AND cover (+2 AC bonus) also at second level. The deepwood sniper gets his ability bumped to 20% (one-half concealment) at 6th level, while the PeerArch gains the ability to ignore the next step (ie - one-half concealment and one-half cover [+4 AC]) at 5th level (one level sooner than the DWS). Once the Peer Arch gains this ability, he no longer suffers a chance of hitting his allies because they might be providing cover to enemies by engaging them in melee; the DWS still suffers from this, and always will unless he takes the Imp. Precise Shot feat. Now, if we take these builds to the end of these PrC's, (which I don't think either of us has suggested yet) then the DWS doesn't gain his ability to ignore 30% concealment until 10th level. the Peerless Archer gains his ability to ignore three-quarters cover (+7 AC) and concealment (30% miss chance) at 9th level, once again, one level before the DWS. Range increment bonus: Granted this could come in handy, but it really depends on your DM making encounter distances really long. Plus, if you get the full bonus (+100 ft for 10 lvls of DWS), at 200 ft you would receive not penalty, while a non-DWS would take a -2 (not that big of a penalty, but it is still there). But realize that to even spot something at 200 ft, you are going to be taking a -20 penalty to your spot check (-1 per 10 ft), thus encounter distances are rarely going to be anywhere over 100 ft (although it still could occur). OotBI: Ranged Sneak attack better than Peerless Archer, free attack (godly), superior weapon focus, zen archery, on and on. As was previously pointed out, my build has more Sneak Attack dice than a straight OotBI. Also, my build has every ability you listed. Just think free attack + combat reflexes + keen + sneak attack+ x5 crit? How exactly are you using combat reflexes with your bow without having the threaten ability of the Peerless Archer? You do realize you have to threaten an area in order to get AoO's, right? And bows don't normally threaten an area; the only instance I know of that allows you to do so is from the Peerless Archer. If there is another WotC product that does so, I'd like the know about it, please. And I may very well be misinterpreting your statement, but just to clarify, Sneak Attack dice do not get multiplied on a critical. Couldn't tell if you were saying that or not. You would be hard pressed to beat that.I doubt it, since you really could only do free attack + 5d6 SA + Keen + x5 crit, while I would get free attack + 6d6 SA + Combat Reflexes + Power Shot I'd put my DWS/OotBI up against any combination involving Peerless Archer. I'll freely admit, in a long distance contest between two archers, your build would stand a good chance of winning. But it's been my experience that DM's rarely place combat in those situations, but YMMV.
The Axeman 11-08-03, 03:04 PM	Seekanddestroy: I took my lvls something like this: I don't have my char handy but I think it was Fighter 4 DWS 3 or 4 rest in OotBI ksbsnowowl: Good point I was unable to find anything about that. It specifically states in any ranged sneak attack description that you can get sneak attack within 30'. Also free attack allows you to take an AoO with a bow anytime an ally gets an AoO and the enemy is within your line of sight. It doesn't say anything about having to threaten the area. So my case would be that if it's within 30' and line of sight you get AoO + sneak attack right? So free attack effectively negates the benefits of threaten since I'm assuming you can't threaten an area that you cannot see. Arguably if you can get a AoO anytime your allies do that may equal more AoO than if you simply threatened an area and took AoO on approaching enemies. Also I am aware that sneak attack does not get multipled on a critical. I wasn't stating that, I was talking about criting with manyshot. I don' t like the idea of paying exp for magic arrows and generally you don't face more than 1-2 encounters in a day at least I don't so magic arrows works well for me.
Hadel Ionque 11-08-03, 03:19 PM	bah, get a cleric to cast greater magic weapon on the arrow and the bow, and youre set. Btw, you cant stack the keen ability from the deepwood sniper with improved critical in 3.5, so deepwood sniper becames kinda useless
The Axeman 11-08-03, 03:43 PM	it's not improved critical, it's projectile improved critical and no DM would rule that two abilities granted by the same prestige class do not work together. Improved critical= better range as in 18-20 instead of 20 projectile improved critical = higher modifier like x 4 instead of x3
ksbsnowowl 11-08-03, 03:44 PM	Originally posted by The Axeman Also free attack allows you to take an AoO with a bow anytime an ally gets an AoO and the enemy is within your line of sight. This is incorrect. Free Attack does not grant you an Attack of Opportunity, it simply grants you an extra attack. Also, I point you to the first line of the Free Attack description: "Once per round, whenever an ally within line of sight gains an attack of opportunity upon a foe, the initiate can make one ranged attack..." Not once per round per ally's AoO, not more if you happen to have combat reflexes. Once per round. It doesn't say anything about having to threaten the area. You're right it doesn't, but it also doesn't allow you more than one extra attack. So my case would be that if it's within 30' and line of sight you get AoO + sneak attack right? Incorrect So free attack effectively negates the benefits of threaten since I'm assuming you can't threaten an area that you cannot see. 1)It doesn't negate Threaten 2)What exactly is preventing me from seeing out to 10 ft? Arguably if you can get a AoO anytime your allies do that may equal more AoO than if you simply threatened an area and took AoO on approaching enemies.If that were the case, then yes, however, that is not the case. Also, you can get AoO for anyone that passes within 10 ft. of you while moving toward an ally or anywhere else on the battlefield. There is basically a 25 ft diameter sphere around you, and if anyone passes through the surface of that sphere and does not stop immediately, you get an AoO against them. I don' t like the idea of paying exp for magic arrows and generally you don't face more than 1-2 encounters in a day at least I don't so magic arrows works well for me. What magic arrows? As I pointed out in my last post, Magic Weapon doesn't allow you to imbue arrows with +1 magic, only bows, crossbows, and slings.
Hadel Ionque 11-08-03, 03:48 PM	Originally posted by The Axeman it's not improved critical, it's projectile improved critical and no DM would rule that two abilities granted by the same prestige class do not work together. Improved critical= better range as in 18-20 instead of 20 projectile improved critical = higher modifier like x 4 instead of x3 The range will be 19-20, because keen and improved critical does not stack in 3.5. Are you understanding me? I am not talking about projectile improved critical.
ksbsnowowl 11-08-03, 03:48 PM	Originally posted by The Axeman it's not improved critical, it's projectile improved critical and no DM would rule that two abilities granted by the same prestige class do not work together. Improved critical= better range as in 18-20 instead of 20 projectile improved critical = higher modifier like x 4 instead of x3 What Hadel is referring to is that Keen Arrows does not stack with the feat Improved Critical (both of which increase the threat range). He is not talking about projectile improved critical. Thus, in 3.5 you are not able to get an 18-20 threat range, only 19-20 by either taking the feat or the DWS class ability.
The Axeman 11-08-03, 04:07 PM	i understand that. I never said anything about taking Improved critical. I was just throwing out some examples. As for the AoO thing. If he is flat footed, which he would have to be if your ally gets an AoO (right?), then you get a sneak attack right? So maybe combat reflexes doesn't work in that case but your sneak attack would? Is that what you were saying? Hmm, I'm starting to warm to the idea of the threaten ability + combat reflexes.
Hadel Ionque 11-08-03, 04:17 PM	AoO doesn't mean the opponent is necessarily flat footed. If he is charging and you got Hold The Line feat for example, the enemy isn't flat footed and you get a AoO, or if he is getting up from prone or drawing a weapon, he is not flat footed but is subject to a AoO
ksbsnowowl 11-08-03, 05:16 PM	Being flat-footed has nothing to do with AoO. It does however have to do with Sneak Attack. The reason it provokes Sneak Attack from rogues is because being flat footed denies you your Dex bonus to AC. A target being denied his dex bonus and the attacker flanking the target are the two ways that Sneak Attacks can be provoked. I'm having trouble finding the table in the SRD, so I will point you to table 8-1 on page 122 of the 3.0 PHB. It lists out most of the actions that provoke AoO; also table 8-3 on page 127. Note that being flat-footed is not one of them. The same page also has this text: from the SRD: Threatened Area A character threatens the area into which it can make a melee attack, even when it is not a character's action. An enemy that takes certain actions while in a threatened area may provoke an attack of opportunity from a character. A small or medium sized character normally has a 5-foot threat radius. "Reach weapons" and "natural reach" can change the threatened area. Provoking an Attack of Opportunity by Moving If a character moves through (not simply into) or out of a threatened area, a character usually provokes an attack of opportunity. If all a character does during that character's turn is make a normal move or a double move (not a run), the space that the character started out in is not considered threatened. If a character's entire move for the round is 5 feet the 5 foot move does not provoke an attack of opportunity.
seekanddestroy 11-08-03, 05:34 PM	Would it make sense to have an 18 on wisdom and take the zen archery feat. So your wisdom mod will stack with your dex. If I rearrange my stats, I could have an 18 wisom and an 18 dex. So at 11th level I would be a +8 to hit before anything else. I think its more important to hit more and do a little less damage. My str. would then be a 16 at 12th.
Hadel Ionque 11-08-03, 05:46 PM	I don't think it stacks.
seekanddestroy 11-08-03, 05:54 PM	Hadel it does stack. It says you gain this feat for free but if you already have the zen archery feat then it stacks and you can add your wis mod to your dex for ranged attacks. So would it be a good idea to have an 18 wisdom. Thanks
ksbsnowowl 11-08-03, 06:00 PM	Seekanddestroy, just to make things clear to everyone, is this a 3.0 or 3.5 game? You might have the ability to rearrange your stats? Hmm....well, if that is the case....(looks up wild elf racial mods in MM -- +2 str, +2 dex, -2 con, -2 int, -2 cha). So your base rolls were: 18, 18, 15, 15, 14, 12. Truthfully, for an Archer I rate my stats from most important to least important like this: Dex, Con, Wis/Str, Int, Cha. As such, if this were my character I would do this: Str 17 Dex 20 Con 16 Int 12 Wis 15 Cha 10 But I would say that this would also be a good distribution: Str 17 Dex 20 Con 13 Int 12 Wis 18 Cha 10 Do note, however, that this distribution will have 40 fewer HP's at 20th level than the other. And the zen archery goodness is still only applicable within 30 ft. If you do go this route, I would put one of your 5 ability boosts into con, bumping it to 14 and giving you as many more HP's as you have levels, especially since putting the last odd ability point into dex won't give you a bonus increase. Happy Gaming
seekanddestroy 11-08-03, 06:16 PM	ksbsnowowl In 3.5 the wood elf lost the -2 to charisma. And the stats I rolled where 18,17,17,15,12,10. Where does it say that you have to be within 30ft to stack your zen archery and dex.
ksbsnowowl 11-08-03, 06:23 PM	Look at the zen archery feat: "....when making ranged attacks at a target within 30 ft." The OotBI stacking ability does not remove the 30ft. restriction. Also, even getting rid of the -2 cha and adding the 4th level ability boost, those numbers don't mesh with the stats you gave in your first post. Gotta go to dinner. I'll add more when I get back.
seekanddestroy 11-08-03, 06:29 PM	ksbsnowowl I see it. How would you put those stats. I havent completely ruled out a human. But I figure that the wis stacking with the dex even it is within 30' would be great you would need a 26 dex to have that kind of modifier. Granted with that dex you could do some other things but look how hard that would be to get.
ksbsnowowl 11-08-03, 07:02 PM	18,17,17,15,12,10 For human I would do this: Str 15 Dex 18 Con 17 Int 12 Wis 17 Cha 10 Putting all ability boosts into Dex except one (this is assuming it is unlikely you will get a Manual of Quickness of Action +5; If you think you will, you may want to put all five boosts into dex so the two odd numbers even out for a greater bonus). The other boost I would put in either Con(which will greatly benefit you at any level) or Wis(but do it at 12th or 16th level, around the time you get the stacking zen archery ability). For a wood elf I would do this: Str 17 Dex 20 Con 15 Int 10 Wis 17 Cha 10 Or this: Str 14 Dex 20 Con 15 Int 13 Wis 17 Cha 10 In either case I make the same suggestions for ability boosts as above.
The Axeman 11-08-03, 07:24 PM	regardless it's pretty easy to get a sneak attack with your free attack no matter what is done to provoke the AoO.
ksbsnowowl 11-08-03, 07:50 PM	Originally posted by The Axeman regardless it's pretty easy to get a sneak attack with your free attack no matter what is done to provoke the AoO. How so? Please back up statements with facts. The target is obviously no longer flatfooted as he had to act in some way to provoke the attack of opportunity. In other words, it is nearly impossible (in fact I can't think of an example) to provoke an AoO and still be flatfooted. The only way to get Sneak Attack with the Free Attack is if the Ally's AoO does something to deny the target his Dex bonus (such as trip him with a trip attack) or there is some other constant effect granting you the ability to sneak attack (such as you being invisible.)
seekanddestroy 11-08-03, 08:36 PM	Thanks to all who has posted, I will read all of them again. I may have to have the character done by tommorow. I'll let you know what I did. Peace
ksbsnowowl 11-08-03, 08:56 PM	Oh, one other thing I forgot to mention when you said you may build it with a human. If you are human you could bump all the feats up one (because of your extra human feat), and that would allow you to take quick draw at 6th level and enter Peerless Archer at 8th level instead of 10th. This would give you the threaten ability at 15th level as opposed to 17th, and would give you an extra feat to stick in the build, perhaps Imp. Crit. or Imp. Init. Just something to think about if you are at all interested in my proposed build.
seekanddestroy 11-08-03, 09:59 PM	ksbsnowowl I am going wood elf, I won't have many skill pts. oh well. Also I am going to go with your first set of numbers. But I am going to even out all of the odds staring with str,wis,con, and add my last 2 to dex. So I'll be 18 str,22 dex, 16 con, 18 wis,10 int, and 10 cha. I appreciate the ideas. See ya
ksbsnowowl 11-08-03, 10:35 PM	Sounds good, I hope you enjoy him and have a good time.
PhaedrusXY 11-09-03, 01:46 AM	Originally posted by ksbsnowowl The only way to get Sneak Attack with the Free Attack is if the Ally's AoO does something to deny the target his Dex bonus (such as trip him with a trip attack) Being prone doesn't cause you to lose your Dex mod to AC. If a monk stunned the enemy on an AoO, then you could get sneak attacks on him. Thats the only thing that comes to mind to allow this.
ksbsnowowl 11-09-03, 02:00 AM	You're right Phaedrus, I don't know why I thought that. I guess I should take some of my own advice and check my facts before I post:angel: But, anyway, the point is still the same; it will be a rare instance in which an AoO will allow a ranged sneak attack.
PhaedrusXY 11-09-03, 02:07 AM	Heh, the only reason I knew that off the top of my head is because I have a ninja who uses a spiked chain and trips people all the time. It sure would be sweet if all of his follow up attacks got sneak attack dice, but they don't. :D