Advice: Mounted Gish build [Archive] - Wizards Community

Advice: Mounted Gish build [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
rutrow424
01-28-05, 05:52 PM I currently have a dwarf fighter 1/wizard 2 (necro specialist). My original plan is for a mounted gish build, but the more I analyze it, it seems like a lot of feats spent for little gain. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Basics: This is for Living Greyhawk, so mostly core rules, though the Complete Books are also usable, level 15 max (for all intents and purposes). Stats are 14,14,16,16,8,6. Maxing out ride, concentration, spellcraft, know-arcana, handle animal to 5 ranks only; level stat boosts to INT. I plan to go F2/Wi4/Spellsword 5, with levels of either Havoc Mage (minis handbook), Spellsword, or Wizard to finish out. Projected feats:

1 - Power Attack
F1 - Mounted Combat
W1 - Scribe scroll
3 - Practiced Spellcaster
F2 - Ride-by attack
6 - Improved Familiar (get a Hippogriff at level 7)
Sp2 - Spirited Charge
9 - Craft Wondrous Item
12 - Arcane Strike
W5 - Craft MA&A
15 - Mounted Archery

The problem I'm facing is the same as most Medium size PCs that my mount is/will be useless half of the time. The other half, it is a prime target with its low AC and HPs unless I stay at range or consistently use RBA (not always easy). As a necromancer and spellsword though, most of my best abilities rely on melee. I could possibly use some of the familiar buffs to alleviate this, but then I am sinking even more into what appears to be a losing investment. I more and more think I should just focus on the creepy necromancer side of the character instead. If I do scrap the mounted theme, what other feats would be good?

Thanks in advance for any help!
Karrg
01-28-05, 09:42 PM I am not familiar with Living Greyhawk, but there is a feat on the WoTC website that allows anyone to get an animal companion similar to druids. While this companion will never be as tough as a druids its not far behind, its hps and ac should be better then using an improved familiar.
The feat itself is in the retired articles, one of the random encounters titled Wild Life.
Nazzareth
01-28-05, 09:56 PM Take some levels in devoted denfender from sword and fist, you can make your mount your charge. You can make Aoo against anyone that tries to attack it with the defensive strike ability and with the deflect attack you can stop one attack per round from hitting it as well. So if you disarm, trip or sunder with your defensive strike, use deflect attack and combine it with mounted combat you could stop three attacks per round from striking your mount.

At higher levels take the improved familiar feat from complete warrior and use your familiar as a mount.

Or create a polymorph item for familiar to polymorph it into a mount.

Your make a figurine of wondrous power for a mount.

Use the mount spell or make a mount spell item.
Eidolon Faer
01-30-05, 02:26 AM Okay...this reply is going to be kind of a hash as I don't have a ton of information to work with. So I'll just point things out in the order they occur to me...

1. So far you're a Fighter 1 / Necromancer 2. What I don't know is what are your forbidden schools. This will tell me what tricks I can expect you to eventually develop and which will be barred from you.

2. The Power Attack feat is an outright mistake. You'll be lagging in BAB already and you cannot afford to hang in combat and whiff a few times because your hitpoints are too low. Even the possibility of True Strike does little if anything to make this a worthy feat for you. You're sacrificing two rounds of actions for one hit with nominal extra damage. Almost ANY feat would be an improvement. Drop Power Attack and take Arcane Strike later if you still want to melee.

3. Take a look at the Obtain Familiar feat in Complete Arcane, it has a partial fix as well for your Improved Familiar Hippogriff's issues.

4. Since leveling is so difficult in Living Greyhawk, I suggest a one-level dip into spellsword as soon as the prereqs can be met and then move to Eldritch Knight for several levels. Fighter 1 / Necro 6 / Spellsword 1 / Eldritch Knight 7 is what you should aim for at level 15 unless you have something particularly fruity in mind. Necro 6 nets you a BAB point.

Char Suggested
Lvl Class Feats

1 Fighter Mounted Combat, (Ride-By Attack)
2 Necro (Scribe Scroll)
3 Necro Mounted Archery
4 Necro
5 Necro
6 Necro Improved Familiar, (Craft Magic Arms / Armor)
7 Necro
8 SpellSwd
9 Eld Knt Arcane Strike, (Spirited Charge)
10 Eld Knt
11 Eld Knt
12 Eld Knt Obtain Familiar
13 Eld Knt
14 Eld Knt
15 Eld Knt Craft Wondrous Item

BAB +12, Caster level 13 at Character level 15.

Libris Mortis might have some good ideas as well. If they've fixed Pale Master so it no longer is worthless, consider it, as it might suit you flavor-wise.
rutrow424
01-31-05, 02:03 PM Okay...this reply is going to be kind of a hash as I don't have a ton of information to work with. So I'll just point things out in the order they occur to me....

Thanks.

1. So far you're a Fighter 1 / Necromancer 2. What I don't know is what are your forbidden schools. This will tell me what tricks I can expect you to eventually develop and which will be barred from you.

I chose conjuration and enchantment as my barred schools, under the theory that summonings and spell DCs won't be that great due to my gish status, and that mage armor would not be needed as soon as spellsword was possible.

2. The Power Attack feat is an outright mistake. You'll be lagging in BAB already and you cannot afford to hang in combat and whiff a few times because your hitpoints are too low. Even the possibility of True Strike does little if anything to make this a worthy feat for you. You're sacrificing two rounds of actions for one hit with nominal extra damage. Almost ANY feat would be an improvement. Drop Power Attack and take Arcane Strike later if you still want to melee.

I don't disagree, but the theory was that casting true strike as a "buff" spell would allow a strong power attack, particularly by level 10 or so. Also True strike is castable w/o spell failure, and synergizes well with the Havoc Mage's battlecast ability (full-round action to cast 1 spell and make 1 attack).

3. Take a look at the Obtain Familiar feat in Complete Arcane, it has a partial fix as well for your Improved Familiar Hippogriff's issues.

I thought all this feat did was allow a person to get a familiar if they did not already have the class ability?

4. Since leveling is so difficult in Living Greyhawk, I suggest a one-level dip into spellsword as soon as the prereqs can be met and then move to Eldritch Knight for several levels. Fighter 1 / Necro 6 / Spellsword 1 / Eldritch Knight 7 is what you should aim for at level 15 unless you have something particularly fruity in mind. Necro 6 nets you a BAB point.

The main concern is whether the mounted route makes any sense in this manner. Secondarily, it is whether the caster that can fight model (as you show) or the fighter that can cast one is preferred or "better." The consensus in the gish thread favors the latter, w/ the spellsword channel spell ability being the ultimate goal, even moreso than arcane strike. When you combine the mounted issue to this, then we have my conundrum.

Libris Mortis might have some good ideas as well. If they've fixed Pale Master so it no longer is worthless, consider it, as it might suit you flavor-wise.

Even though under-powered, I did like the flavor of this in S&F. Libris Mortis did not change much, a few extra caster levels but trading the Bone Armor for use of new "undead" armor. Much cooler but very unlikely for Living Greyhawk PCs. Several of the feats appear quite good, but again one would have to "find" them in LG.

Any more thoughts?
Eidolon Faer
01-31-05, 10:35 PM Enchantment and Conjuration? Ugh.

That eliminates the Heroism buff...and the Mount spell...and Mage Armor...

1. Up front, I'm not a big fan of specialist wizards in general. That pittance of extra spells per day seems a poor trade for being unable to access entire colleges of magic. As for giving up Mage Armor, it's not for you, it's for your MOUNT. Flying creatures have issues with Barding, y'know.

2. Since you're a Dwarf Wizard, I'm going to assume your Charisma is pitiful. I was pondering the possibility of a 3-level dip into Blackguard but it's just not workable. You could get weapon and armor proficiency that way, as well as ability to Rebuke Undead. The Elf, Half Elf, or Human Paragon classes from Unearthed Arcana would probably provide an elegant bridge there, but no dice for you. The Golden Barding spell is available to Blackguards too...

3. As for the Obtain Familiar feat, read the fine print. It also makes ALL of your arcane caster levels (or is it class levels, I forget) stack for the purposes of determining your familiar's special abilities based on your Wizard level. That means your familiar will get about 2-4 levels of additional Natural Armor, a higher Int, and a few other minor goodies. Maybe not the best use of a Feat, but probably not the worst either. Reducing the vulnerability of your Familiar / Mount is always worthwhile.

4. I'm just not sold on the whole Channel Spell thing. Even if you take all 10 levels of Spellsword, it's usable a MAXIMUM of five times per day. That's one or two encounters maximum per day. You're better off casting those Rays of Enfeeblement and Enervate spells at range and then making your charge. Arcane Strike can be used at will.

Fighter 2 / Necromancer 4 / Spellsword 5 / Eldritch Knight 4 is the analogous build you'd end up with at level 15. Instead of 7th level spells, you're casting 5th level spells maximum and you have less of them. Sure, you can wear heavier armor and still cast but can your flying mount carry it?

If you're going to completely dump everything for the ability to load up two or three nasty mounted charges per day, and that seems to be what you're intent on doing, here's a possible alternate build:

Fighter 2 / Necromancer 4 / Spellsword 5 / Cavalier 4

Char Suggested
Lvl Class Feats

1 Fighter Mounted Combat, (Ride-By Attack)
2 Fighter (Weapon Focus: Lance)
3 Necro Spirited Charge, (Scribe Scroll)
4 Necro
5 Necro
6 Necro Obtain Familiar
7 SpellSwd
8 SpellSwd
9 SpellSwd Arcane Strike
10 SpellSwd
11 SpellSwd
12 Cavalier Craft Magic Arms and Armor
13 Cavalier
14 Cavalier
15 Cavalier Craft Wondrous Item

Admittedly, this is a sucky one-trick pony build, but a Deadly Charge with a Channeled Spell and Arcane Strike using a lance with True Strike is going to lay down some smack. And it'll also pretty nicely consume all of your spells per day and special abilities if you do it twice.
Devant
01-31-05, 11:44 PM The Mounted Gish. Or, what I refer to as the quintessential fantasy character:
Paladin1/Battle Sorcerer4/Cavalier10/SpellSword4/Dragon Rider1

At this point for you I recomend:
Ftr1/Wiz4/Rune Smith2/Cavalier10/Dragon Rider2

Which is probably more viable in campaign play anyways.

Things to note for both: BAB 18; 3rd level Spells; Epic Ready; you ride a DRAGON.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
rutrow424 01-28-05, 05:52 PM	I currently have a dwarf fighter 1/wizard 2 (necro specialist). My original plan is for a mounted gish build, but the more I analyze it, it seems like a lot of feats spent for little gain. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Basics: This is for Living Greyhawk, so mostly core rules, though the Complete Books are also usable, level 15 max (for all intents and purposes). Stats are 14,14,16,16,8,6. Maxing out ride, concentration, spellcraft, know-arcana, handle animal to 5 ranks only; level stat boosts to INT. I plan to go F2/Wi4/Spellsword 5, with levels of either Havoc Mage (minis handbook), Spellsword, or Wizard to finish out. Projected feats: 1 - Power Attack F1 - Mounted Combat W1 - Scribe scroll 3 - Practiced Spellcaster F2 - Ride-by attack 6 - Improved Familiar (get a Hippogriff at level 7) Sp2 - Spirited Charge 9 - Craft Wondrous Item 12 - Arcane Strike W5 - Craft MA&A 15 - Mounted Archery The problem I'm facing is the same as most Medium size PCs that my mount is/will be useless half of the time. The other half, it is a prime target with its low AC and HPs unless I stay at range or consistently use RBA (not always easy). As a necromancer and spellsword though, most of my best abilities rely on melee. I could possibly use some of the familiar buffs to alleviate this, but then I am sinking even more into what appears to be a losing investment. I more and more think I should just focus on the creepy necromancer side of the character instead. If I do scrap the mounted theme, what other feats would be good? Thanks in advance for any help!
Karrg 01-28-05, 09:42 PM	I am not familiar with Living Greyhawk, but there is a feat on the WoTC website that allows anyone to get an animal companion similar to druids. While this companion will never be as tough as a druids its not far behind, its hps and ac should be better then using an improved familiar. The feat itself is in the retired articles, one of the random encounters titled Wild Life.
Nazzareth 01-28-05, 09:56 PM	Take some levels in devoted denfender from sword and fist, you can make your mount your charge. You can make Aoo against anyone that tries to attack it with the defensive strike ability and with the deflect attack you can stop one attack per round from hitting it as well. So if you disarm, trip or sunder with your defensive strike, use deflect attack and combine it with mounted combat you could stop three attacks per round from striking your mount. At higher levels take the improved familiar feat from complete warrior and use your familiar as a mount. Or create a polymorph item for familiar to polymorph it into a mount. Your make a figurine of wondrous power for a mount. Use the mount spell or make a mount spell item.
Eidolon Faer 01-30-05, 02:26 AM	Okay...this reply is going to be kind of a hash as I don't have a ton of information to work with. So I'll just point things out in the order they occur to me... 1. So far you're a Fighter 1 / Necromancer 2. What I don't know is what are your forbidden schools. This will tell me what tricks I can expect you to eventually develop and which will be barred from you. 2. The Power Attack feat is an outright mistake. You'll be lagging in BAB already and you cannot afford to hang in combat and whiff a few times because your hitpoints are too low. Even the possibility of True Strike does little if anything to make this a worthy feat for you. You're sacrificing two rounds of actions for one hit with nominal extra damage. Almost ANY feat would be an improvement. Drop Power Attack and take Arcane Strike later if you still want to melee. 3. Take a look at the Obtain Familiar feat in Complete Arcane, it has a partial fix as well for your Improved Familiar Hippogriff's issues. 4. Since leveling is so difficult in Living Greyhawk, I suggest a one-level dip into spellsword as soon as the prereqs can be met and then move to Eldritch Knight for several levels. Fighter 1 / Necro 6 / Spellsword 1 / Eldritch Knight 7 is what you should aim for at level 15 unless you have something particularly fruity in mind. Necro 6 nets you a BAB point. Char Suggested Lvl Class Feats 1 Fighter Mounted Combat, (Ride-By Attack) 2 Necro (Scribe Scroll) 3 Necro Mounted Archery 4 Necro 5 Necro 6 Necro Improved Familiar, (Craft Magic Arms / Armor) 7 Necro 8 SpellSwd 9 Eld Knt Arcane Strike, (Spirited Charge) 10 Eld Knt 11 Eld Knt 12 Eld Knt Obtain Familiar 13 Eld Knt 14 Eld Knt 15 Eld Knt Craft Wondrous Item BAB +12, Caster level 13 at Character level 15. Libris Mortis might have some good ideas as well. If they've fixed Pale Master so it no longer is worthless, consider it, as it might suit you flavor-wise.
rutrow424 01-31-05, 02:03 PM	Okay...this reply is going to be kind of a hash as I don't have a ton of information to work with. So I'll just point things out in the order they occur to me.... Thanks. 1. So far you're a Fighter 1 / Necromancer 2. What I don't know is what are your forbidden schools. This will tell me what tricks I can expect you to eventually develop and which will be barred from you. I chose conjuration and enchantment as my barred schools, under the theory that summonings and spell DCs won't be that great due to my gish status, and that mage armor would not be needed as soon as spellsword was possible. 2. The Power Attack feat is an outright mistake. You'll be lagging in BAB already and you cannot afford to hang in combat and whiff a few times because your hitpoints are too low. Even the possibility of True Strike does little if anything to make this a worthy feat for you. You're sacrificing two rounds of actions for one hit with nominal extra damage. Almost ANY feat would be an improvement. Drop Power Attack and take Arcane Strike later if you still want to melee. I don't disagree, but the theory was that casting true strike as a "buff" spell would allow a strong power attack, particularly by level 10 or so. Also True strike is castable w/o spell failure, and synergizes well with the Havoc Mage's battlecast ability (full-round action to cast 1 spell and make 1 attack). 3. Take a look at the Obtain Familiar feat in Complete Arcane, it has a partial fix as well for your Improved Familiar Hippogriff's issues. I thought all this feat did was allow a person to get a familiar if they did not already have the class ability? 4. Since leveling is so difficult in Living Greyhawk, I suggest a one-level dip into spellsword as soon as the prereqs can be met and then move to Eldritch Knight for several levels. Fighter 1 / Necro 6 / Spellsword 1 / Eldritch Knight 7 is what you should aim for at level 15 unless you have something particularly fruity in mind. Necro 6 nets you a BAB point. The main concern is whether the mounted route makes any sense in this manner. Secondarily, it is whether the caster that can fight model (as you show) or the fighter that can cast one is preferred or "better." The consensus in the gish thread favors the latter, w/ the spellsword channel spell ability being the ultimate goal, even moreso than arcane strike. When you combine the mounted issue to this, then we have my conundrum. Libris Mortis might have some good ideas as well. If they've fixed Pale Master so it no longer is worthless, consider it, as it might suit you flavor-wise. Even though under-powered, I did like the flavor of this in S&F. Libris Mortis did not change much, a few extra caster levels but trading the Bone Armor for use of new "undead" armor. Much cooler but very unlikely for Living Greyhawk PCs. Several of the feats appear quite good, but again one would have to "find" them in LG. Any more thoughts?
Eidolon Faer 01-31-05, 10:35 PM	Enchantment and Conjuration? Ugh. That eliminates the Heroism buff...and the Mount spell...and Mage Armor... 1. Up front, I'm not a big fan of specialist wizards in general. That pittance of extra spells per day seems a poor trade for being unable to access entire colleges of magic. As for giving up Mage Armor, it's not for you, it's for your MOUNT. Flying creatures have issues with Barding, y'know. 2. Since you're a Dwarf Wizard, I'm going to assume your Charisma is pitiful. I was pondering the possibility of a 3-level dip into Blackguard but it's just not workable. You could get weapon and armor proficiency that way, as well as ability to Rebuke Undead. The Elf, Half Elf, or Human Paragon classes from Unearthed Arcana would probably provide an elegant bridge there, but no dice for you. The Golden Barding spell is available to Blackguards too... 3. As for the Obtain Familiar feat, read the fine print. It also makes ALL of your arcane caster levels (or is it class levels, I forget) stack for the purposes of determining your familiar's special abilities based on your Wizard level. That means your familiar will get about 2-4 levels of additional Natural Armor, a higher Int, and a few other minor goodies. Maybe not the best use of a Feat, but probably not the worst either. Reducing the vulnerability of your Familiar / Mount is always worthwhile. 4. I'm just not sold on the whole Channel Spell thing. Even if you take all 10 levels of Spellsword, it's usable a MAXIMUM of five times per day. That's one or two encounters maximum per day. You're better off casting those Rays of Enfeeblement and Enervate spells at range and then making your charge. Arcane Strike can be used at will. Fighter 2 / Necromancer 4 / Spellsword 5 / Eldritch Knight 4 is the analogous build you'd end up with at level 15. Instead of 7th level spells, you're casting 5th level spells maximum and you have less of them. Sure, you can wear heavier armor and still cast but can your flying mount carry it? If you're going to completely dump everything for the ability to load up two or three nasty mounted charges per day, and that seems to be what you're intent on doing, here's a possible alternate build: Fighter 2 / Necromancer 4 / Spellsword 5 / Cavalier 4 Char Suggested Lvl Class Feats 1 Fighter Mounted Combat, (Ride-By Attack) 2 Fighter (Weapon Focus: Lance) 3 Necro Spirited Charge, (Scribe Scroll) 4 Necro 5 Necro 6 Necro Obtain Familiar 7 SpellSwd 8 SpellSwd 9 SpellSwd Arcane Strike 10 SpellSwd 11 SpellSwd 12 Cavalier Craft Magic Arms and Armor 13 Cavalier 14 Cavalier 15 Cavalier Craft Wondrous Item Admittedly, this is a sucky one-trick pony build, but a Deadly Charge with a Channeled Spell and Arcane Strike using a lance with True Strike is going to lay down some smack. And it'll also pretty nicely consume all of your spells per day and special abilities if you do it twice.
Devant 01-31-05, 11:44 PM	The Mounted Gish. Or, what I refer to as the quintessential fantasy character: Paladin1/Battle Sorcerer4/Cavalier10/SpellSword4/Dragon Rider1 At this point for you I recomend: Ftr1/Wiz4/Rune Smith2/Cavalier10/Dragon Rider2 Which is probably more viable in campaign play anyways. Things to note for both: BAB 18; 3rd level Spells; Epic Ready; you ride a DRAGON.