Age of Monsters [Archive] - Wizards Community

Age of Monsters [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Runemage14
07-15-04, 06:43 PM Ok. The PhB seems to be the only source giving me much information on ageing. The list it provides applies only to the PhB races.

I had thought that Elementals were like constructs or undead and immune to ageing, but the only information I could immediately find on teh issue was special qulities listings in the MM. A quick comparison seemed to point out that creatures with ability damage immunity, and similar related abilities (undead and constructs) were immune to ageing affects. Elementals came somewhat close with the immunity to stunning and sleep and yadda yadda, but really lacked the two core features of the two immortal creature types. I then began looking at the entry listings of the monsters. HD Advancement.
What is that? Sure, a creatures whose advancement listing is 'as per character class' is fine. But what if it's say...an elemental. No class. It seems they just 'generally' get stronger, and larger.

I inspected further and concluded that advancement in that fashion is a combination of several factors, age being a significant part.

Armed thus, I contend that Elementals age. As they age, they apparently grow larger..and stronger...and more agile....and more intelligent. So, unlike a human or Elf or any other standard PhB race, an ageing Elemental does not, in fact, grow any weaker. No listing of any type of elemental shows that as it advances. This includes but is not limited to things such as basic elementals (Air, Earth, Fire, Water), Belkers and Invisible Stalkers.

Granted, each kind has a limit on advancement. For instance huge greater elementals only attain about 24 maximum HD as part of their advancement while an elder has no known limit (25+). I would assume that of those rare few elders that attain 25 or more HD that they have grown so much like the plane that spawned them that they are reintegrated into it's essence in short order...or that they merely are killed or have no ambition with which to 'do' anything more than just be..thus being reintigrated into the realm that spawned them.

My argument is that if I become an elemental creature via 10 levels of any PRC (Elemental Savant, Bonded Summoner) that, while the precedent for dying when a humaniods time is normally up remains, that the bonus and penalty chart would be dramatically altered as per each catagory of ageing available to me.

In essence, elementals souls and bodies are the same thing. They're bound together. That's what makes them hard to raise. When a soul dies of old age, it's soul is too fragile to make the trip back to the world of the living. As a human to begin with, my soul would have a humans lifespan as that determines it's fragility/durability (stupid elves). With this is mind, becoming an elemental does not change that. What it does change is that I would not age at the same rate as an elemental. I'd age every 18 years (on average) like a human. Each time I aged, though..the effects on my person have less to do with the soul and more to do with the nature of the body..in this case..an elemental one. One without any discernable anatomy. No organs to have slowly wither away with the passage of time, etc. Physical detriments are not part of an elementals existence naturally. Magically, sure. Ability damage and Ability drain. But naturally, they just keeep getting bigger and badder the longer they can stick around. Or so it seems.

Lastly, I wonder what happens if you become immortal? This is important once you read below. If I become Immortal (not as a lich but truly immortal) I am immune to the affects of ageing. But does that render me immune to the mental affects? That doesn't make much since since it's an issue of time and general accumulated wisdom and knowledge. Arguably, becoming immortal means that my soul is now strong enough to not deteriorate. As an elemental, my body wouldn't either. But this just reinforces both aspects of the elementals singular existance.

as an immortal Elemental creature, if I live 18 years longer, I think I would gain the experience of life as appropriate for a human of that age. While being immune to the negative physical effects..possibly, the positive.

As a normal Elemental creature, If I live 18 years longer, I think I would gain the experience of life as appropriate for a human of that age AND become physically more formidable in every single way.

I am playing a wizard who seeks to become a Bonded Summoner/Elemental Savant and hopefully go Epic. I've got access to the book of Evil (It's actually called Evil) and due to a special circumstance in the adventure, I am able to take any of the Infernal Feats, even those costing exp. I can do so and treat them having been taken at 1st level, but I must still pay the requisite EXP costs out of my currently acquired amount.
I've taken one ageing penalty to push my high stat, a 15, to a 16. *sigh* And just FYI, I am using mostly 3.5 material but obviously digging into some 3.0. I've planned on taking Bonded Summoner Water and Elemental Savant Air. The feats at 1st level would be Infernal Pact, Immunity, Infernal Soul and Shapechange whic would drop my already awesome intelligence score back to a 15. Arcane Disciple x2 (Mysticism and Weather), Regeneration, Improved Regeneration and probably Multiple Limbs and whatever the 3.5 Two Weapon Fighting for multi-limbed creatures is. I don't have even 1/3 of my books as they are all at my GM's house whose gone for like another two weeks. :(
I may also take the Immorality Feat....as mentioned above.

At first glance the character simply will suck with the lot of caster levels, but it seems he'll be alright in the end. I'm also considering specialising in a school of magic for additional spells per day and easily dumping Necromancy (not his style) Although I honestly cannot think of any other school worth removing. Not sure which school I would specialise in either. Probably Illusion, or Evocation and I might take the UA varients (once I get my books back and can read them).

Now..here is the meat of the situation. Obviously, my stats suck. My class selection is rather suboptimal for play. I've got a lot of weight on my shoulders once I get that water elemental Familiar (no pun intended) and I am playing a Lawful evil character. I began thinking of how to maximise what I had.

First,The 10th level ability of hte Bonded Summoner to become an elemental is really rather weak except for any builds that appreciate high str and con (barbarian rage mage summoner?)
For casters, the boost to dex and con is always nice, as well as selecting air and earth are great for defence. I'm Water. Yay.
With a BAB of +8 at 20th level, There is not much I can really do since I'll have a -4 to hit and damage most of the time.

Any thoughts? (Sorry for the long post)
catharz
07-15-04, 07:13 PM Well, my first thought is that this does not belong on the C.O. board.

I'm not saying that you don't have a good idea, but optimization is all alout working within the rules, and you are presenting a new rules system.

I think the Savage species board is probably the best place for this, or possibly the Monster manual, PHB, or Tome and blood boards.
PhoenixInferno
07-15-04, 08:03 PM Originally posted by catharz
Well, my first thought is that this does not belong on the C.O. board.

I'm not saying that you don't have a good idea, but optimization is all alout working within the rules, and you are presenting a new rules system.

I think the Savage species board is probably the best place for this, or possibly the Monster manual, PHB, or Tome and blood boards.

In defense of the poster, if you have a human soul and an elemental body, can you use a "modified elemental" aging table for physical attributes and the human aging table for mental stats?

And a fascinating question, that does happen to belong on the Races or Monster Manual board.
Blade2718
07-15-04, 08:30 PM No longer off-topic, but you get an OT warning.
Vapor IX
07-15-04, 10:48 PM Originally posted by Runemage14
Now..here is the meat of the situation. Obviously, my stats suck. My class selection is rather suboptimal for play. I've got a lot of weight on my shoulders once I get that water elemental Familiar (no pun intended) and I am playing a Lawful evil character. I began thinking of how to maximise what I had.

Emphasis mine. Not -totally- off topic.
necrosnoop110
07-15-04, 11:08 PM 1) If you dig deep in Runemage14’s chromatic ramblings there is an optimization request after all. Runemage14 I would suggest going with black words and learn to be more concise.

2) Here, I’ll paraphrase for you (if I got you right):

3.5 and 3.0 sources allowed
Book of Evil & [Insert other allowable sources here]
[Insert level of starting build here]

I am building a Bonded Summoner/Elemental Savant and the DM is letting me take any of the Infernal Feats from the Book of Evil, even those costing exp. I can do so and treat them having been taken at 1st level, but I must still pay the requisite EXP costs out of my currently acquired amount.

My feats at 1st level would be Infernal Pact, Immunity, Infernal Soul and Shapechange I may also take the Immorality Feat. These feats will lower my INT and as a caster I know this is a bad thing.

[Post build here]

Any recommendations on:

Feat selection
What elemental form I should assume at 10th level?
Improving my abilities as a caster

PS – I was wondering if anyone knew anything about Elementals and aging the MM seems kind of quiet on this issue. And since elementals grow stronger as they age would this have any effect on my stat adjustments?
Blade2718
07-15-04, 11:10 PM What he's doing here does not constitute "maximization" but a rather specious attempt to gain some benefit from a poor situation, one that I sympathize with. There are no rules for what he's looking to do and so he's had to create some; this is not a board for house-rule creation.

[EDIT]
Necrosnoop110 managed to translate that really long post into an actual optimization request, and therefore, this post should no longer be off topic. But the first half about elemental "aging" stands as being offtopic.

Have you decided which class you'll be taking? BS or ES? Though not optimized, I think Spell Thematics might be cool, if you can spare it.

Also, after some thought, I would probably handle the elemental transformation similar to outsider apotheosis- native elementals that are mortal. Of course, not applicable if you take Immortal...
necrosnoop110
07-15-04, 11:17 PM Blade2718
What he's doing here does not constitute "maximization" but a rather specious attempt to gain some benefit from a poor situation, one that I sympathize with.
In any case Runemage14 I think you would get better results from your posts if you:
1) Turned off the blue
2) Wrote more concisely
PhoenixInferno
07-15-04, 11:58 PM Originally posted by necrosnoop110
In any case Runemage14 I think you would get better results from your posts if you:
1) Turned off the blue
...

Blue? BLUE IS AN IMPROVEMENT!!! He used to post in HOT PINK! :)

I'm not sure if thematically a Bonded Summoner/Elemental Savant that didn't have matching element types would fly by most DMs. If I were you, I would pick a single element and stick with it. Air is good because you'll wind up flying. My guess would be Wizard 5/Air Elemental Savant 10/Bonded Summoner 5
Runemage14
07-16-04, 12:11 AM I like blue. :)

But I do admit to not being very concise. I apologise since, it seems It was difficult to ascertain my true intent.

First, I think I should clarify that this is an optimization issue.

How: I am looking for a way to make a Bonded Summoner or any character who has acquired the elemental status better and more efficient.

My method of doing so: I began considering age as a factor since other races or monsters do seem to benefit from growing older. If the same situation were applicable to a character who transended their normal creature type and acquired a monster creature type, in this case elemental -insert subtype-, then I was looking for responses that could clarify the ambiguity of the rules (or in this case, seeming lack of) and help me to identify methods (assuming my hypothesis is correct) to further optimize and otherwise powergame an otherwise weak character with great ambition.

How you can help: Think about the subject. Skim through the books yourself, offer ideas, suggestions and other relavent thoughts on the matter be they in favor of or against the nature of my hypothetical posted above. Look for precedents in the rules or example characters that seem to have followed a similar path. Or do any of the other thigns CO's do. ;)

I'd rather not regress what could otherwise be an informative and enlightening discussion into a tedious debate over whether or not this is about optimization. Then I don't get the Optimization Relevent answers I posted here to recieve.

I hope I have been very clear and concise on the matter. Sorry if you don't like blue. ;)

P.S. I intend to take 10 levels of Bonded Summoner (Water) and my last 5 character levels would be Elemental Savant (Air). Depending on the information I recieve, the things I will and will not be able to do at 25th level and whatever age are dramatic.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Runemage14 07-15-04, 06:43 PM	Ok. The PhB seems to be the only source giving me much information on ageing. The list it provides applies only to the PhB races. I had thought that Elementals were like constructs or undead and immune to ageing, but the only information I could immediately find on teh issue was special qulities listings in the MM. A quick comparison seemed to point out that creatures with ability damage immunity, and similar related abilities (undead and constructs) were immune to ageing affects. Elementals came somewhat close with the immunity to stunning and sleep and yadda yadda, but really lacked the two core features of the two immortal creature types. I then began looking at the entry listings of the monsters. HD Advancement. What is that? Sure, a creatures whose advancement listing is 'as per character class' is fine. But what if it's say...an elemental. No class. It seems they just 'generally' get stronger, and larger. I inspected further and concluded that advancement in that fashion is a combination of several factors, age being a significant part. Armed thus, I contend that Elementals age. As they age, they apparently grow larger..and stronger...and more agile....and more intelligent. So, unlike a human or Elf or any other standard PhB race, an ageing Elemental does not, in fact, grow any weaker. No listing of any type of elemental shows that as it advances. This includes but is not limited to things such as basic elementals (Air, Earth, Fire, Water), Belkers and Invisible Stalkers. Granted, each kind has a limit on advancement. For instance huge greater elementals only attain about 24 maximum HD as part of their advancement while an elder has no known limit (25+). I would assume that of those rare few elders that attain 25 or more HD that they have grown so much like the plane that spawned them that they are reintegrated into it's essence in short order...or that they merely are killed or have no ambition with which to 'do' anything more than just be..thus being reintigrated into the realm that spawned them. My argument is that if I become an elemental creature via 10 levels of any PRC (Elemental Savant, Bonded Summoner) that, while the precedent for dying when a humaniods time is normally up remains, that the bonus and penalty chart would be dramatically altered as per each catagory of ageing available to me. In essence, elementals souls and bodies are the same thing. They're bound together. That's what makes them hard to raise. When a soul dies of old age, it's soul is too fragile to make the trip back to the world of the living. As a human to begin with, my soul would have a humans lifespan as that determines it's fragility/durability (stupid elves). With this is mind, becoming an elemental does not change that. What it does change is that I would not age at the same rate as an elemental. I'd age every 18 years (on average) like a human. Each time I aged, though..the effects on my person have less to do with the soul and more to do with the nature of the body..in this case..an elemental one. One without any discernable anatomy. No organs to have slowly wither away with the passage of time, etc. Physical detriments are not part of an elementals existence naturally. Magically, sure. Ability damage and Ability drain. But naturally, they just keeep getting bigger and badder the longer they can stick around. Or so it seems. Lastly, I wonder what happens if you become immortal? This is important once you read below. If I become Immortal (not as a lich but truly immortal) I am immune to the affects of ageing. But does that render me immune to the mental affects? That doesn't make much since since it's an issue of time and general accumulated wisdom and knowledge. Arguably, becoming immortal means that my soul is now strong enough to not deteriorate. As an elemental, my body wouldn't either. But this just reinforces both aspects of the elementals singular existance. as an immortal Elemental creature, if I live 18 years longer, I think I would gain the experience of life as appropriate for a human of that age. While being immune to the negative physical effects..possibly, the positive. As a normal Elemental creature, If I live 18 years longer, I think I would gain the experience of life as appropriate for a human of that age AND become physically more formidable in every single way. I am playing a wizard who seeks to become a Bonded Summoner/Elemental Savant and hopefully go Epic. I've got access to the book of Evil (It's actually called Evil) and due to a special circumstance in the adventure, I am able to take any of the Infernal Feats, even those costing exp. I can do so and treat them having been taken at 1st level, but I must still pay the requisite EXP costs out of my currently acquired amount. I've taken one ageing penalty to push my high stat, a 15, to a 16. sigh And just FYI, I am using mostly 3.5 material but obviously digging into some 3.0. I've planned on taking Bonded Summoner Water and Elemental Savant Air. The feats at 1st level would be Infernal Pact, Immunity, Infernal Soul and Shapechange whic would drop my already awesome intelligence score back to a 15. Arcane Disciple x2 (Mysticism and Weather), Regeneration, Improved Regeneration and probably Multiple Limbs and whatever the 3.5 Two Weapon Fighting for multi-limbed creatures is. I don't have even 1/3 of my books as they are all at my GM's house whose gone for like another two weeks. :( I may also take the Immorality Feat....as mentioned above. At first glance the character simply will suck with the lot of caster levels, but it seems he'll be alright in the end. I'm also considering specialising in a school of magic for additional spells per day and easily dumping Necromancy (not his style) Although I honestly cannot think of any other school worth removing. Not sure which school I would specialise in either. Probably Illusion, or Evocation and I might take the UA varients (once I get my books back and can read them). Now..here is the meat of the situation. Obviously, my stats suck. My class selection is rather suboptimal for play. I've got a lot of weight on my shoulders once I get that water elemental Familiar (no pun intended) and I am playing a Lawful evil character. I began thinking of how to maximise what I had. First,The 10th level ability of hte Bonded Summoner to become an elemental is really rather weak except for any builds that appreciate high str and con (barbarian rage mage summoner?) For casters, the boost to dex and con is always nice, as well as selecting air and earth are great for defence. I'm Water. Yay. With a BAB of +8 at 20th level, There is not much I can really do since I'll have a -4 to hit and damage most of the time. Any thoughts? (Sorry for the long post)
catharz 07-15-04, 07:13 PM	Well, my first thought is that this does not belong on the C.O. board. I'm not saying that you don't have a good idea, but optimization is all alout working within the rules, and you are presenting a new rules system. I think the Savage species board is probably the best place for this, or possibly the Monster manual, PHB, or Tome and blood boards.
PhoenixInferno 07-15-04, 08:03 PM	Originally posted by catharz Well, my first thought is that this does not belong on the C.O. board. I'm not saying that you don't have a good idea, but optimization is all alout working within the rules, and you are presenting a new rules system. I think the Savage species board is probably the best place for this, or possibly the Monster manual, PHB, or Tome and blood boards. In defense of the poster, if you have a human soul and an elemental body, can you use a "modified elemental" aging table for physical attributes and the human aging table for mental stats? And a fascinating question, that does happen to belong on the Races or Monster Manual board.
Blade2718 07-15-04, 08:30 PM	No longer off-topic, but you get an OT warning.
Vapor IX 07-15-04, 10:48 PM	Originally posted by Runemage14 Now..here is the meat of the situation. Obviously, my stats suck. My class selection is rather suboptimal for play. I've got a lot of weight on my shoulders once I get that water elemental Familiar (no pun intended) and I am playing a Lawful evil character. I began thinking of how to maximise what I had. Emphasis mine. Not -totally- off topic.
necrosnoop110 07-15-04, 11:08 PM	1) If you dig deep in Runemage14’s chromatic ramblings there is an optimization request after all. Runemage14 I would suggest going with black words and learn to be more concise. 2) Here, I’ll paraphrase for you (if I got you right): 3.5 and 3.0 sources allowed Book of Evil & [Insert other allowable sources here] [Insert level of starting build here] I am building a Bonded Summoner/Elemental Savant and the DM is letting me take any of the Infernal Feats from the Book of Evil, even those costing exp. I can do so and treat them having been taken at 1st level, but I must still pay the requisite EXP costs out of my currently acquired amount. My feats at 1st level would be Infernal Pact, Immunity, Infernal Soul and Shapechange I may also take the Immorality Feat. These feats will lower my INT and as a caster I know this is a bad thing. [Post build here] Any recommendations on: Feat selection What elemental form I should assume at 10th level? Improving my abilities as a caster PS – I was wondering if anyone knew anything about Elementals and aging the MM seems kind of quiet on this issue. And since elementals grow stronger as they age would this have any effect on my stat adjustments?
Blade2718 07-15-04, 11:10 PM	What he's doing here does not constitute "maximization" but a rather specious attempt to gain some benefit from a poor situation, one that I sympathize with. There are no rules for what he's looking to do and so he's had to create some; this is not a board for house-rule creation. [EDIT] Necrosnoop110 managed to translate that really long post into an actual optimization request, and therefore, this post should no longer be off topic. But the first half about elemental "aging" stands as being offtopic. Have you decided which class you'll be taking? BS or ES? Though not optimized, I think Spell Thematics might be cool, if you can spare it. Also, after some thought, I would probably handle the elemental transformation similar to outsider apotheosis- native elementals that are mortal. Of course, not applicable if you take Immortal...
necrosnoop110 07-15-04, 11:17 PM	Blade2718 What he's doing here does not constitute "maximization" but a rather specious attempt to gain some benefit from a poor situation, one that I sympathize with. In any case Runemage14 I think you would get better results from your posts if you: 1) Turned off the blue 2) Wrote more concisely
PhoenixInferno 07-15-04, 11:58 PM	Originally posted by necrosnoop110 In any case Runemage14 I think you would get better results from your posts if you: 1) Turned off the blue ... Blue? BLUE IS AN IMPROVEMENT!!! He used to post in HOT PINK! :) I'm not sure if thematically a Bonded Summoner/Elemental Savant that didn't have matching element types would fly by most DMs. If I were you, I would pick a single element and stick with it. Air is good because you'll wind up flying. My guess would be Wizard 5/Air Elemental Savant 10/Bonded Summoner 5
Runemage14 07-16-04, 12:11 AM	I like blue. :) But I do admit to not being very concise. I apologise since, it seems It was difficult to ascertain my true intent. First, I think I should clarify that this is an optimization issue. How: I am looking for a way to make a Bonded Summoner or any character who has acquired the elemental status better and more efficient. My method of doing so: I began considering age as a factor since other races or monsters do seem to benefit from growing older. If the same situation were applicable to a character who transended their normal creature type and acquired a monster creature type, in this case elemental -insert subtype-, then I was looking for responses that could clarify the ambiguity of the rules (or in this case, seeming lack of) and help me to identify methods (assuming my hypothesis is correct) to further optimize and otherwise powergame an otherwise weak character with great ambition. How you can help: Think about the subject. Skim through the books yourself, offer ideas, suggestions and other relavent thoughts on the matter be they in favor of or against the nature of my hypothetical posted above. Look for precedents in the rules or example characters that seem to have followed a similar path. Or do any of the other thigns CO's do. ;) I'd rather not regress what could otherwise be an informative and enlightening discussion into a tedious debate over whether or not this is about optimization. Then I don't get the Optimization Relevent answers I posted here to recieve. I hope I have been very clear and concise on the matter. Sorry if you don't like blue. ;) P.S. I intend to take 10 levels of Bonded Summoner (Water) and my last 5 character levels would be Elemental Savant (Air). Depending on the information I recieve, the things I will and will not be able to do at 25th level and whatever age are dramatic.