Ah, April's around the bend again... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Ah, April's around the bend again... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Tempest Stormwind
03-17-05, 12:37 AM You know April's around the bend when you see stuff like this (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dndacc/0764584596) on Wizard's Upcoming Products list. Given some of the strange marketing decisions of late, and the STELLAR accuracy of Customer Service with their finger on the pulse of the community, I'm not sure if this is their April Fool's gag on us or not.

However, that said, let's see if we can run with it, and simultaneously show off that this is the CO forum, and we're not all ruthless rules lawyers who speak incomprehensible rules and make even worse monstrosities.

What optimized builds would YOU consider "for dummies" material?

Bonus points for the fewer books used, of course.

Obviously, most wizard (or other Vancian casters) stunts are right out, as they require a lot of planning and spell familiarity, almost as a rule. Artificers are probably the worst for this, as they have a few dozen spell lists and creation rules to deal with, even though it's hard to make a poor artificer. Surprisingly, though, many of the potent melee builds work the same way -- I've gamed one too many games with wannabe barbarians who's first action of EVERY FIGHT is "I rage" -- despite having a times/day limit on it.

Even the simple fighters I've worked with have done things like "Ooooo... Toughness... even MORE hit points!" (dwarf, 20 con, by the way). Or the sort who take three or four Weapon Focus/Specialization trees. Sorceror spell selection causes even more problems than that, especially if the person playing has some strange DBZ-interpretation here, or dreams of playing a full gish from level 1 (Battle sorc and warmage come close, though, but there's problems with both when it comes to optimizing).

Warlock seems like a good call, especially since all the invocations can be swapped (at a rate of 1/level), and they can hold their own in any decent party most of the time. (Or, as the Fenster thread brought up, it's a more "in-your-face" sorceror for those of us with short attention spans.) However, it's difficult to get a warlock to truly "optimized" status without dipping other classes, and judging from the number of topics I've seen on the topic, warlock PrCing nearly needs a "for dummies" book of its own. (I don't see what's so tough about it, but then again, I fully support houseruling if it's best for your game table.)

Even the classic "Occam's Razor of Optimizations," Druid 20, has some problems there -- namely, the most "optimal" material is scattered throughout multiple books (BoED, Complete Divine, Draconomicon, Masters of the Wild (occasionally), and so on). It also is a vancian spellcasting class (see Wizard), and the Wild Shape rules require intimite knowledge of Polymorph and a decent library of monster forms. It might work as well as an artificer, though, because (like arty) it's hard to make a bad one.

So, while this thread may have started off as a slight nudge-at-the-ribs at Wizards, it now poses a serious question. You've got a newcomer to CO in general, who understands the basics of the PHB and little else. What directions do you point them in? What would be YOUR "Optimization for Dummies"?
SigmaJargon
03-17-05, 12:49 AM That's ... awesome! DnD for Dummies? I have this sinking feeling that tells me its for real. Why? Because its also on Amazon. I don't think Wizards would go to all the trouble and bother of doing something like this - think of the angry people who would pre-order. No, its real. For better or for worse, its real.

My first thought for dummies optimization is shadowlord. The standard horizon walker approach. The tactics are pretty simple, door in, full attack, rinse and repeat as often as possible. No real specific knowledge required, only a couple books needed, IIRC. Perfect for the casual optimizer.
catharz
03-17-05, 01:51 AM Frenzied berserker seems to be the quinessential dummy PrC :P

You don't even have to make a descision to Frenzy, it just happens when you get hit. The only real difficulty is figuring out how many points to PA for.
tehlwf
03-17-05, 03:10 AM This is definately real, to be honest I thought it was already out, I've seen something almost exactly like it in England (ottakars bookshop) and until now I thought it was an official dummies book! :)
lostone
03-17-05, 07:24 AM It could just be a gag book, something fun for the fans to read, not intended as a true "here's how to be good at D&D" book. Then again with the official "For Dummies" it probably has to be. It could be both I guess.

What's sad is I'd fully expect one of my players to get this, if he could be bothered to ever pick up a book at all. :rolleyes:
carnivore
03-17-05, 07:43 AM ranger 20 could be the easiest to play ,while at the same time contributing the the party.......Full BAB,2 good saves, animal companion, spells, great skills,proficent with all simple and martial weapons and armor and shields(except tower shields).
even without multiclassing, it is a viable choice, and is very versatile.

:D
Fugazi
03-17-05, 08:44 AM You need 2 players :

1 - A smart, experienced players who knows the rules.

He will play a caster with domination.

2 - The dummy.

He will play any kind of meatshield and willingly fails his saves.

1 guides 2 through the game till 2 can make his own decisions without having to reach for his Dummy's book or player 1.
LordKiwi
03-17-05, 09:06 AM Optomising requires a level of forward planning that is hard for a new player to grasp. You need to know most of the rules and options before you can do it.

Saying that if you wanted a ne wplayer to use a pre optimised character you could always compile a 'Build XYZ for Dummies' pointing our the strengths, weaknesses, notable rules and most relevant spells/items for the build.

Lord Kiwi,
Dain
03-17-05, 10:18 AM Fighting types are always easiest for newbies to grasp. You just need to pay attention to their choices and get them to acknowledge that your advice is for real.

I once had a guy who played a Fighter/Sorceror although he only had a 9 in strength. I tried to warn him, but he wouldn't listen. At level 5 he sucked so badly that he had to make a new character - this time accepting that you can't just mix random classes with random ability scores because you have this great idea for a character.

I hope I don't wound too much like a powergamer, but I think most people will accept that your character has to have some amount of power or ability to be fun to play. My friend's character had neither. :)

- Dain
GrolubFranco
03-17-05, 10:23 AM I think optimization comes with time. I don´t believe it´s a april fools day...
I also think that spellcaster´s aren´t exactly the best thing to start out, because all those spells are just too much complicated. I believe that you can´t teach some person, the one will begin understading his mistakes and look at the optimized players.
DarknessEternal
03-17-05, 10:44 AM I hope I don't wound too much like a powergamer, but I think most people will accept that your character has to have some amount of power or ability to be fun to play.

There's nothing powergamerey about that. Real life is boring and mundane, I'm not going to waste my hobby time pretending I'm a farmer.
lostone
03-17-05, 10:45 AM I always recommend non-spellcasting classes to new players. I try to get them to start with Fighter for it's simplicity, go over the feats I'd recommend if I was playing the character and let them browse through the other feats. If they don't want Fighter I try to interest them in a Ranger or Rogue, typically one of the three gets them interested. The most difficult part of starting new in this game is combat, which fighter gets them into pretty easilly, then you can add in things like flanking and twf later on, which they would need to learn faster with rogue and ranger. So that's why I prefer to start them with a fighter.
Mr. Dog
03-17-05, 11:31 AM Archers make very good characters for people who are unfamiliar with all the rules.

You know you're going to shoot someone. You have three options:

1. Full attack (With rapid shot, natch).
2. If they're within 30', manyshot.
3. Ready an action to disrupt a spellcaster.

3 is something you introduce later on, after they start to "get it."
rilem
03-17-05, 11:54 AM I think fighter offers too many choices. Plus, for a beginner with core rules (i.e., the dummy that the book is catering to), most of those choices are bad.

Half-Orc Barbarian seems a good fit — I think I recall one of the 3.5 designers explaining that the reason the Half-Orc didn't get any bonuses or upgrades compared to other races was because WotC wanted to have a "simple" class that was easy to play. Per design, dummies play half-orcs.

Plus, barbarian is a viable choice throughout all 20 levels and can be effective with a simple strategy: Stand there and hit. And most of the Core feats actually work pretty well with it.

For other core classes, I'd suggest those that also offer relatively little choice in playing style. Soulknife is an obvious one, and though it's relatively underpowered it SEEMS cool, making it a good choice for a beginner.
Mommy was an Orc
03-17-05, 01:11 PM I agree with the Barbarian choice - easy to understand and relatively straightforward.

My optimized build would be:
Skill Monkey 3/Full BAB 2/Good Saves 2 where BAB = +6. Then tack on a FullBAB PrC levels 1-10. Then add on either another PrC or level up the 1st 3 classes. If possible, try to teach something about a more complicated topic slowly.

Examples:
Ranger 3/Fighter 2/Bard 2/Warchanter 10/Horizon Walker 3
Rogue 3/Barbarian 2/Hexblade 2/Frenzied Berserker 10/Exotic Weapon Master 3
Ranger 3/Cleric 4/Paladin 3/Hospitalier 10

So the Hospitalier slowly gets cleric spells, eventually hitting 11th level caster at 20th level. Which isn't truly optimized by any means, but the rate of gaining spells is slow enough that the newbie has some time to figure it out.

Benefits:
+19 BAB - certainly not crippled by any stretch of the imagination.
Strong skills - as the newbie gets better at playing, particularly at non-combat, they'll feel useful.
Decent saves - again, if you get to higher levels, they'll be more resistant to enemy magic
big bear
03-17-05, 01:33 PM I think yall are missing the point. This book is going to be explaining what the dice are (with the qute little polyhedral sidebar), how to read a map, what the stats are etc. It is for givivng your girlfriend.
Bone Machine
03-17-05, 01:56 PM as if Mialee and Tordek don't dumb things down enough already

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tempest Stormwind 03-17-05, 12:37 AM	You know April's around the bend when you see stuff like this (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dndacc/0764584596) on Wizard's Upcoming Products list. Given some of the strange marketing decisions of late, and the STELLAR accuracy of Customer Service with their finger on the pulse of the community, I'm not sure if this is their April Fool's gag on us or not. However, that said, let's see if we can run with it, and simultaneously show off that this is the CO forum, and we're not all ruthless rules lawyers who speak incomprehensible rules and make even worse monstrosities. What optimized builds would YOU consider "for dummies" material? Bonus points for the fewer books used, of course. Obviously, most wizard (or other Vancian casters) stunts are right out, as they require a lot of planning and spell familiarity, almost as a rule. Artificers are probably the worst for this, as they have a few dozen spell lists and creation rules to deal with, even though it's hard to make a poor artificer. Surprisingly, though, many of the potent melee builds work the same way -- I've gamed one too many games with wannabe barbarians who's first action of EVERY FIGHT is "I rage" -- despite having a times/day limit on it. Even the simple fighters I've worked with have done things like "Ooooo... Toughness... even MORE hit points!" (dwarf, 20 con, by the way). Or the sort who take three or four Weapon Focus/Specialization trees. Sorceror spell selection causes even more problems than that, especially if the person playing has some strange DBZ-interpretation here, or dreams of playing a full gish from level 1 (Battle sorc and warmage come close, though, but there's problems with both when it comes to optimizing). Warlock seems like a good call, especially since all the invocations can be swapped (at a rate of 1/level), and they can hold their own in any decent party most of the time. (Or, as the Fenster thread brought up, it's a more "in-your-face" sorceror for those of us with short attention spans.) However, it's difficult to get a warlock to truly "optimized" status without dipping other classes, and judging from the number of topics I've seen on the topic, warlock PrCing nearly needs a "for dummies" book of its own. (I don't see what's so tough about it, but then again, I fully support houseruling if it's best for your game table.) Even the classic "Occam's Razor of Optimizations," Druid 20, has some problems there -- namely, the most "optimal" material is scattered throughout multiple books (BoED, Complete Divine, Draconomicon, Masters of the Wild (occasionally), and so on). It also is a vancian spellcasting class (see Wizard), and the Wild Shape rules require intimite knowledge of Polymorph and a decent library of monster forms. It might work as well as an artificer, though, because (like arty) it's hard to make a bad one. So, while this thread may have started off as a slight nudge-at-the-ribs at Wizards, it now poses a serious question. You've got a newcomer to CO in general, who understands the basics of the PHB and little else. What directions do you point them in? What would be YOUR "Optimization for Dummies"?
SigmaJargon 03-17-05, 12:49 AM	That's ... awesome! DnD for Dummies? I have this sinking feeling that tells me its for real. Why? Because its also on Amazon. I don't think Wizards would go to all the trouble and bother of doing something like this - think of the angry people who would pre-order. No, its real. For better or for worse, its real. My first thought for dummies optimization is shadowlord. The standard horizon walker approach. The tactics are pretty simple, door in, full attack, rinse and repeat as often as possible. No real specific knowledge required, only a couple books needed, IIRC. Perfect for the casual optimizer.
catharz 03-17-05, 01:51 AM	Frenzied berserker seems to be the quinessential dummy PrC :P You don't even have to make a descision to Frenzy, it just happens when you get hit. The only real difficulty is figuring out how many points to PA for.
tehlwf 03-17-05, 03:10 AM	This is definately real, to be honest I thought it was already out, I've seen something almost exactly like it in England (ottakars bookshop) and until now I thought it was an official dummies book! :)
lostone 03-17-05, 07:24 AM	It could just be a gag book, something fun for the fans to read, not intended as a true "here's how to be good at D&D" book. Then again with the official "For Dummies" it probably has to be. It could be both I guess. What's sad is I'd fully expect one of my players to get this, if he could be bothered to ever pick up a book at all. :rolleyes:
carnivore 03-17-05, 07:43 AM	ranger 20 could be the easiest to play ,while at the same time contributing the the party.......Full BAB,2 good saves, animal companion, spells, great skills,proficent with all simple and martial weapons and armor and shields(except tower shields). even without multiclassing, it is a viable choice, and is very versatile. :D
Fugazi 03-17-05, 08:44 AM	You need 2 players : 1 - A smart, experienced players who knows the rules. He will play a caster with domination. 2 - The dummy. He will play any kind of meatshield and willingly fails his saves. 1 guides 2 through the game till 2 can make his own decisions without having to reach for his Dummy's book or player 1.
LordKiwi 03-17-05, 09:06 AM	Optomising requires a level of forward planning that is hard for a new player to grasp. You need to know most of the rules and options before you can do it. Saying that if you wanted a ne wplayer to use a pre optimised character you could always compile a 'Build XYZ for Dummies' pointing our the strengths, weaknesses, notable rules and most relevant spells/items for the build. Lord Kiwi,
Dain 03-17-05, 10:18 AM	Fighting types are always easiest for newbies to grasp. You just need to pay attention to their choices and get them to acknowledge that your advice is for real. I once had a guy who played a Fighter/Sorceror although he only had a 9 in strength. I tried to warn him, but he wouldn't listen. At level 5 he sucked so badly that he had to make a new character - this time accepting that you can't just mix random classes with random ability scores because you have this great idea for a character. I hope I don't wound too much like a powergamer, but I think most people will accept that your character has to have some amount of power or ability to be fun to play. My friend's character had neither. :) - Dain
GrolubFranco 03-17-05, 10:23 AM	I think optimization comes with time. I don´t believe it´s a april fools day... I also think that spellcaster´s aren´t exactly the best thing to start out, because all those spells are just too much complicated. I believe that you can´t teach some person, the one will begin understading his mistakes and look at the optimized players.
DarknessEternal 03-17-05, 10:44 AM	I hope I don't wound too much like a powergamer, but I think most people will accept that your character has to have some amount of power or ability to be fun to play. There's nothing powergamerey about that. Real life is boring and mundane, I'm not going to waste my hobby time pretending I'm a farmer.
lostone 03-17-05, 10:45 AM	I always recommend non-spellcasting classes to new players. I try to get them to start with Fighter for it's simplicity, go over the feats I'd recommend if I was playing the character and let them browse through the other feats. If they don't want Fighter I try to interest them in a Ranger or Rogue, typically one of the three gets them interested. The most difficult part of starting new in this game is combat, which fighter gets them into pretty easilly, then you can add in things like flanking and twf later on, which they would need to learn faster with rogue and ranger. So that's why I prefer to start them with a fighter.
Mr. Dog 03-17-05, 11:31 AM	Archers make very good characters for people who are unfamiliar with all the rules. You know you're going to shoot someone. You have three options: 1. Full attack (With rapid shot, natch). 2. If they're within 30', manyshot. 3. Ready an action to disrupt a spellcaster. 3 is something you introduce later on, after they start to "get it."
rilem 03-17-05, 11:54 AM	I think fighter offers too many choices. Plus, for a beginner with core rules (i.e., the dummy that the book is catering to), most of those choices are bad. Half-Orc Barbarian seems a good fit — I think I recall one of the 3.5 designers explaining that the reason the Half-Orc didn't get any bonuses or upgrades compared to other races was because WotC wanted to have a "simple" class that was easy to play. Per design, dummies play half-orcs. Plus, barbarian is a viable choice throughout all 20 levels and can be effective with a simple strategy: Stand there and hit. And most of the Core feats actually work pretty well with it. For other core classes, I'd suggest those that also offer relatively little choice in playing style. Soulknife is an obvious one, and though it's relatively underpowered it SEEMS cool, making it a good choice for a beginner.
Mommy was an Orc 03-17-05, 01:11 PM	I agree with the Barbarian choice - easy to understand and relatively straightforward. My optimized build would be: Skill Monkey 3/Full BAB 2/Good Saves 2 where BAB = +6. Then tack on a FullBAB PrC levels 1-10. Then add on either another PrC or level up the 1st 3 classes. If possible, try to teach something about a more complicated topic slowly. Examples: Ranger 3/Fighter 2/Bard 2/Warchanter 10/Horizon Walker 3 Rogue 3/Barbarian 2/Hexblade 2/Frenzied Berserker 10/Exotic Weapon Master 3 Ranger 3/Cleric 4/Paladin 3/Hospitalier 10 So the Hospitalier slowly gets cleric spells, eventually hitting 11th level caster at 20th level. Which isn't truly optimized by any means, but the rate of gaining spells is slow enough that the newbie has some time to figure it out. Benefits: +19 BAB - certainly not crippled by any stretch of the imagination. Strong skills - as the newbie gets better at playing, particularly at non-combat, they'll feel useful. Decent saves - again, if you get to higher levels, they'll be more resistant to enemy magic
big bear 03-17-05, 01:33 PM	I think yall are missing the point. This book is going to be explaining what the dice are (with the qute little polyhedral sidebar), how to read a map, what the stats are etc. It is for givivng your girlfriend.
Bone Machine 03-17-05, 01:56 PM	as if Mialee and Tordek don't dumb things down enough already