Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Xaktsaroth 12-28-06, 01:10 AM	I'm actually in a campaign that encourages freaky characters, and EVIL characters, so, or course, I'm trying to do both. 32 pt. buy. ECL 8 LA buy-off in effect. I'm stuck between 3 different build ideas: 1) Evolved Gravetouched Ghoul NE Warlock 1/Cleric 4/Eldritch Disciple 10/Contemplative 1/Cleric +4 Basic DMM monkey with some warlock tricks, plus Ability Focus(Paralysis), and Improved Paralysis for some para-Coup-de-grace fun. Weakness: At ECL 8, I have an average of 22 hps, this can somewhat be helped by taking the Divine Magician variant from Complete Mage and grabbing False Life, and Vampire Touch type spells. Bad Fort/Ref save. 2) Evolved Gravetouched Ghoul Human LE Paladin of Tyranny 2/Hexblade 3/Ur-Priest 5/Contemplative 1/Ur-Priest +4/Heirophant 5. Much better saves and HP's, and things get crazy with those last 5 levels. 3) Feral Half-Vampire Hell-born Soulknife 5/Soul Eater 1/War Mind 4/Legacy Champion 7(advancing Soul Eater)/Legacy Champion +3(advancing War Mind). [Build ends up at effectively: Soulknife 5/Soul Eater 7/War Mind 6 + Legacy goodness] Variation on Raziel from my Digital Character Conversion thread. Good front-liner and no real weakness, but fewer tricks as well. So, I ask you, which build should I settle on, and, if any, what changes would you make? Thanks for the help, I can't make up my mind. :(
crow04 12-28-06, 01:18 AM	i'd go for number three. like the feral vampire combo, and just a good basic chaciter without shticks is more all around useful
NTD 12-28-06, 01:22 AM	On #2, why not go hierophant 5 for those last 5 levels?
Xaktsaroth 12-28-06, 01:46 AM	On #2, why not go hierophant 5 for those last 5 levels? 2 reasons: 1) The PrC is for high-level servants of a god, which an Ur-Priest doesn't worship. 2) And most importantly, it doesn't advance divine CL.
NTD 12-28-06, 04:29 AM	Alright, maybe the flavor doesn't fit (I was looking at the SRD). But it does advance divine CL, as from the SRD: Spells and Caster Level Levels in the hierophant prestige class, even though they do not advance spell progression in the character’s base class, still stack with the character’s base spellcasting levels to determine caster level.
DavidWL 12-28-06, 04:51 AM	1) Evolved Gravetouched Ghoul NE Warlock 1/Cleric 4/Eldritch Disciple 10/Contemplative 1/Cleric +4 Basic DMM monkey with some warlock tricks, plus Ability Focus(Paralysis), and Improved Paralysis for some para-Coup-de-grace fun. Weakness: At ECL 8, I have an average of 22 hps, this can somewhat be helped by taking the Divine Magician variant from Complete Mage and grabbing False Life, and Vampire Touch type spells. Bad Fort/Ref save. I always love the Warlock/caster combos. What ever did happen to Necrosis? 2) Evolved Gravetouched Ghoul Paladin of Slaughter 2/Hexblade 3/Ur-Priest 10/Full CL progression 5. Much better saves and HP's, but I'm having trouble filling in those last 5 levels. Reminds me of the classic bone knight build ... Paladin 2/Hexblade 3/Ur-Priest 2/Bone Knight 10/Divine Oracle 2/XXX 1 Why bother advancing Ur-priest past level 2? Take some 9/10 class ... Ruby Knight Vindicator could be very nice (if you can get away with it as an Ur-Priest). Eldritch Knight if nothing better ... or one of the classes from Complete Divine. Hospitaler is also a very good fit (especially if you trade away one of the CHA to saves for a couple of fighter feats). 3) Feral Half-Vampire Hell-born Soulknife 5/Soul Eater 1/War Mind 4/Legacy Champion 7(advancing Soul Eater)/Legacy Champion +3(advancing War Mind). [Build ends up at effectively: Soulknife 5/Soul Eater 7/War Mind 6 + Legacy goodness] Variation on Raziel from my Digital Character Conversion thread. Good front-liner and no real weakness, but fewer tricks as well. For some reason this doesn't quite do it for me ... probably the "fewer tricks". So, I ask you, which build should I settle on, and, if any, what changes would you make? Thanks for the help, I can't make up my mind. :( I'd probably do some variation of 2). I might do 1) if I thought I could figure out how to make it survivable ... the warlock invocation that gives CHA to saves can help. The low HP seems like it shouldn't be any worse than any large LA, no CON build (which is the case for #2 as well). Best, David
PhoenixInferno 12-28-06, 11:00 AM	There are some undead with Unholy Toughness (which is CHA to HP) - perhaps you could find an undead that had it, or made it a feat that you could take?
Xaktsaroth 12-28-06, 11:56 AM	I always love the Warlock/caster combos. What ever did happen to Necrosis? Actually, this is sort of a test drive for a new version of Necrosis, which is why the 22 hps galls me so. :P Reminds me of the classic bone knight build ... Paladin 2/Hexblade 3/Ur-Priest 2/Bone Knight 10/Divine Oracle 2/XXX 1 Why bother advancing Ur-priest past level 2? Take some 9/10 class ... Ruby Knight Vindicator could be very nice (if you can get away with it as an Ur-Priest). Eldritch Knight if nothing better ... or one of the classes from Complete Divine. Hospitaler is also a very good fit (especially if you trade away one of the CHA to saves for a couple of fighter feats). Because I can't seem to find a Divine PrC that advances at 9/10'ths of better. Contemplative/Bone Knight come first, but a lot of benefits of those classes are already gained by my undead type. I'm not sure I could advance as RKV with Ur-Priest(besides, wouldn't I lose 2 CL?). Eldritch Knight only advances arcane, if I remember correctly, and Ur-Priest would give me more tricks. Hospitaler would lose 2 CLs and the entry feats are too strict. I'm honestly thinking of going Paladin 2/Hexblade 3/Ur-Priest 10/Contemplative 1/Divine Oracle 4. Mine in red Edit: Nevermind, read below.
Xaktsaroth 12-28-06, 12:06 PM	Alright, maybe the flavor doesn't fit (I was looking at the SRD). But it does advance divine CL, as from the SRD: Oooooo. Wow, Heiro is an awesome class, I get to choose 5 special abilities over the course of 5 levels, and I can take take one that gives me +1 CL(which I can take ALL. FIVE. TIMES. for a bonus of +5 CL, and/or, I can get 5 bonus metamagic feats!). Sweet crap! This class rocks. Well, we have a winner, I'll make the changes to the first post. :) Thanks NTD.
PhaedrusXY 12-28-06, 01:19 PM	There are some undead with Unholy Toughness (which is CHA to HP) - perhaps you could find an undead that had it, or made it a feat that you could take?I agree that would be a good idea. All 10 levels of Walker in the Waste would do it... or you could just Shapechange into a Dry Lich (or other undead with it) once you get to the higher levels. However, there are alternatives. If you take the Corpsecrafter feat(s), and turn yourself into an undead via a Contingent Create (Greater) Undead, you can get a decent boost to your hit points and some other things. Make sure to do all of this in a desecrated area with an altar to an evil deity, of course. ;) And you could also take option 2, and then Shapechange into a Dry Lich (or other undead with Unholy Toughness). :D
FriendlyFrog 12-28-06, 01:23 PM	Hierophant = +10 caster levels for your Ur-priest in 5 levels. I have to agree that it rocks pretty hard!
PhaedrusXY 12-28-06, 01:27 PM	Hierophant = +10 caster levels for your Ur-priest in 5 levels. I have to agree that it rocks pretty hard!Eh, it's good if your Ur-Priest caster level is already equal to your total hit dice before taking Heirophant levels (as with a Wiz5/Mindbender1/Ur-Priest10). Otherwise, you're better off just taking Practiced Spellcaster (or other Heirophant special abilities).
FriendlyFrog 12-28-06, 01:44 PM	Eh, it's good if your Ur-Priest caster level is already equal to your total hit dice before taking Heirophant levels (as with a Wiz5/Mindbender1/Ur-Priest10). Otherwise, you're better off just taking Practiced Spellcaster (or other Heirophant special abilities). The FAQ states that you apply practiced spellcaster when it's most beneficial to you, and Hierophant doesn't say it can't raise your caster level above your HD. For example, Illumian Bard 3/Duskblade 2/Ur-priest 10/Hierophant 5 with practiced spellcaster and that Illumian sigil that gives you a bonus to caster level up to your HD has a caster level of 20 even before anything Hierophant gives you. That's a caster level of 30, at level 20, without magic items, all day long! Add that magic item from Races of Faerun that gives you +4 caster level, Bead of Karma, Divine spellpower and an orange ioun stone, and you have a caster level of 45!
DavidWL 12-28-06, 02:45 PM	Because I can't seem to find a Divine PrC that advances at 9/10'ths of better. Contemplative/Bone Knight come first, but a lot of benefits of those classes are already gained by my undead type. I'm not sure I could advance as RKV with Ur-Priest(besides, wouldn't I lose 2 CL?). Eldritch Knight only advances arcane, if I remember correctly, and Ur-Priest would give me more tricks. Hospitaler would lose 2 CLs and the entry feats are too strict. I'm honestly thinking of going Paladin 2/Hexblade 3/Ur-Priest 10/Contemplative 1/Divine Oracle 4. My bad on the Eldritch Knight. I'm rather shocked at how hard it is to find prestige classes suitable for an evil undead caster. How about Master of Shrouds? Costs a couple of feats, but not a bad class (admittedly, not too good either). Bothersome that it is so ridiculously hard to find something appropriate.
The_Mad_Linguist 12-28-06, 03:03 PM	Have you considered adding toned down elements from the nasty gentleman (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=563976)? It's powerful, freaky and evil.
Xaktsaroth 12-28-06, 03:05 PM	My bad on the Eldritch Knight. I'm rather shocked at how hard it is to find prestige classes suitable for an evil undead caster. How about Master of Shrouds? Costs a couple of feats, but not a bad class (admittedly, not too good either). Bothersome that it is so ridiculously hard to find something appropriate. MAster of Shrouds requires 2 feats for entry, and I already want/need the following in the build: Iron Will(Ur-Priest, pre-req) Spell Focus(Evil)(Ur-Priest, pre-req) Extend Spell(Grabbed with Contemplative 1) Persistent Spell DMM(Persistent Spell) Ability Focus(Paralysis) Improved Paralysis Practiced Spellcaster(Ur-Priest) 7 feats(effectively, as I nab Extend spell for free), just enough, as I start as a human, so I can't spare the space for Augmented Summoning and Spell Focus(Conj). Heirophant was a wonderful suggestion though, as I don't need any feats to get in, it increases my CL, and I can grab free CL, metamagic feats, or some other Archmage-type abilities. But yes, I have to share your view on evil undead casters. Where's the love, WotC? :(
Xaktsaroth 12-29-06, 05:40 PM	Bump
Ganbor 12-30-06, 01:43 AM	2) Evolved Gravetouched Ghoul Human LE Paladin of Tyranny 2/Hexblade 3/Ur-Priest 5/Contemplative 1/Ur-Priest +4/Heirophant 5. Ok, this is something that's bugged me about a ton of UrPriest builds... Where are you getting the skill requirements? (Knowledge(planes) 5) That little 5 has shot down so many of the ways I've tried to build them!
Xaktsaroth 12-30-06, 02:47 AM	Ok, this is something that's bugged me about a ton of UrPriest builds... Where are you getting the skill requirements? (Knowledge(planes) 5) That little 5 has shot down so many of the ways I've tried to build them! Take Education at 1st level. Makes all Knowledge skills class skills for all levels. :) Cuz knowledge is power! :)
Xaktsaroth 01-03-07, 09:33 PM	So, the Paladin 2/Hexblade 3/Ur-Priest 10/Heirophant 5 is the group consensus?
DavidWL 01-03-07, 10:54 PM	So, the Paladin 2/Hexblade 3/Ur-Priest 10/Heirophant 5 is the group consensus? As much as the Ur-Priest 10 makes me wince, I say, "Yea". (P.S. The ardent dillitante might be good. It might cost a feat to get in for the exotic weapon, and another level of Hexblade for the arcane casting. Hmm ... probably not as good as the above, however, it would give back 3 feats plus a few nice abilities).
Judging Eagle 01-03-07, 10:55 PM	Heiro Won't advance your spells per day however. Only your caster level, so you're stuck with 8th lvl spells, just an FYI. However, with a CL of 30-45, you can try and abuse Blasphemy etc. unless the things you face have more than 45 HD. In which case. :weep:
Xaktsaroth 01-03-07, 11:22 PM	Heiro Won't advance your spells per day however. Only your caster level, so you're stuck with 8th lvl spells, just an FYI. However, with a CL of 30-45, you can try and abuse Blasphemy etc. unless the things you face have more than 45 HD. In which case. :weep: I have all 10 levels of Ur-Priest, how am I limited to 8th level spells?
Xaktsaroth 01-04-07, 01:30 PM	Alright, if nobody has anything else to say, I think we have a winner. :)
Judging Eagle 01-04-07, 05:38 PM	I have all 10 levels of Ur-Priest, how am I limited to 8th level spells? Whoops, nevermind that. Hmm....
FriendlyFrog 01-05-07, 05:25 AM	As much as the Ur-Priest 10 makes me wince, I say, "Yea". (P.S. The ardent dillitante might be good. It might cost a feat to get in for the exotic weapon, and another level of Hexblade for the arcane casting. Hmm ... probably not as good as the above, however, it would give back 3 feats plus a few nice abilities). 4th level of Hexblade is pretty good with the Dark companion alternate class feature from PHBII. And Xaktsaroth, be sure that you use a Paladin of Slaughter or Tyranny instead of the normal one, otherwise it's two wasted levels. Though you could always put some Bone knight there, it's just an amazing PrC.
Xaktsaroth 01-06-07, 02:22 AM	4th level of Hexblade is pretty good with the Dark companion alternate class feature from PHBII. And Xaktsaroth, be sure that you use a Paladin of Slaughter or Tyranny instead of the normal one, otherwise it's two wasted levels. Though you could always put some Bone knight there, it's just an amazing PrC. 2) Evolved Gravetouched Ghoul Human LE Paladin of Tyranny 2/Hexblade 3/Ur-Priest 5/Contemplative 1/Ur-Priest +4/Heirophant 5. Already thought that far ahead, at least. :P
NatchFeral 01-06-07, 02:50 AM	Could you substitute Divine Oracle 2 for two levels of Ur-Priest? Anything past Ur-Priest 2 is pretty much a waste, unless you go for the whole nine yards.